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How does rim constructions influence sound

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Jul 2, 2020 - 9:41:29 AM
115 posts since 2/16/2020

I have been scratching my head for years about the role of the rim in the sound of an open-back banjo, particularly those with metal tone rings. So I looked in the archives and just recently Ken LeVan posted: if I may paraphrase, that the rim is a structural element and does not serve as a sounding board (though I would suspect it has a very minor role in that regard, since it does vibrate). Aluminum rims and composite rims have both been used successfully. I just put together a banjo with a rolled brass tone ring and the cheapest 5-ply rim that the Asian market ever produced.

So how does the rim affect tone (let's stick with 11" rims)?
- The internal diameter affects the resonance in the box. I think this would be more of an issue with banjos with resonators.
- Ken mentioned that the rigidity affects the plunkyness but didn't mention how. My speculation: if the rim deforms more easily it will absorb energy from the head vibration and dampen the higher frequencies. Is this the primary affect? (Then if I wanted a brighter tone, I could presumably lay up fiberglass on the inside of my cheap rim and make it stiffer, or substitute a beefier tension ring).

Robert

Jul 2, 2020 - 11:15:58 AM
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beegee

USA

21766 posts since 7/6/2005

I'll go start the popcorn....

Jul 2, 2020 - 11:49:44 AM

Alex Z

USA

3878 posts since 12/7/2006

Those are good questions.  Yet I think we have to start inductively, rather than deductively.

Do we hear certain characteristics of certain types of rims, when a lot of people are the "we"?  (Forget about the person who says "they all sound the same, and therefore there is no difference.")  Then try to figure out what is causing the differences in sound.

Going the other way -- theorizing how the rim "ought" to operate, and then theorizing that a specific type of rim would add or deduct certain characteristics, depends one heck of a lot about the "ought," which often is pure verbal speculation with not a lot of empirical evidence.  Not so long ago the BHO was talking about the "sound" traveling from the tone ring, down over the rim, through the flange -- as if there were tiny elves carrying sound bits from one place to another.

An example I like to test against theories is a concrete -- concrete rim, or concrete neck, or concrete tailpiece, etc.  smiley  Vibrations, no vibrations, resonance, no resonance, rigidity, flexibility -- what should we hear from concrete?  Simple, cast one up, and can test it.

I think the rim can affect the character of the sound, because the difference in broad characteristics can be heard.  Such as, block vs. 3 ply.  Maple vs. mahogany.  After that, I'm tapped out.  

Edited by - Alex Z on 07/02/2020 11:50:32

Jul 2, 2020 - 12:18:35 PM

115 posts since 2/16/2020

It is the problem of being able to control the experiment. If I could have 2 identical banjos with the rim material being the only difference then maybe I can draw some empirical evidence. That is never going to happen, even if I could go the shops to try a lot of instruments. I'm hoping that builders who have tried a lot of things, have opinions built on experience. Beyond that I am making up stories that are consistent with the physics that I know.

Interesting aside, I also have a old 7-ply Goodtime with Renaissance Head and it is brighter than my project banjo with cheap rim, brass rolled tone ring and Fiberskyn head. I think it is the head that accounts for it, and would like to switch them to see. But I only have so much time to tinker.

Jul 2, 2020 - 12:48:57 PM

7414 posts since 8/28/2013

As Ken LeVan has said, the rim is primarily a structural support for the head. It will, however, color the tone somewhat, probably less than other factors. Most of how rim materials and construction affect the overall sound is pretty much conjecture, although it should be obvious that a poorly constructed rim that doesn't do it's supporting job will not work as well as a solid rim, simply because a rim that flexes too much will rob vibrational energy from the actual sounding surface, which is the head. (Be aware that by "solid," I don't necessarily mean "thick and heavy.")

Jul 2, 2020 - 1:23:26 PM

366 posts since 3/26/2009

I think everything affects the sound to some degree. Even if someone took 2 identical banjos and started switching parts there would be factors that change that change the sound besides the part... just from assembly I would think.  The best way might be to change the part and nothing else on the same banjo while using exactly the same recording equipment.  Like this member did a while back with the different heads. Sorry I'm too lazy to try to figure out the BHO member who did it. I found the youtube video.



Sounds better -vs- sounds worse is a bit subjective. Even the words we use to describe the sound are kind of suspect. Tubby, mellow, bright, plunky, etc. I know most banjo people have an idea what they mean but it's hard for me to really assign a value in my head to sound other than volume. I'm sure there is some way to measure the highs and lows and come up with hard values but I'm not sure it would really mean anything outside of the extreme.  

It's weird, sometimes I think my banjo sounds great and the next time I pick it up it sounds like dirt.  I think its me more than the banjo.  I know a couple of times I drove my loud flappy topped jeep 30 miles to a jam and it sounded horrible to me.... I think my ears were jacked because of all the loud noise.



 

Jul 2, 2020 - 1:42:15 PM
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13070 posts since 6/29/2005

quote:
Originally posted by beegee

I'll go start the popcorn....


My machine is already started up—it's a "whirly-pop".

Edited by - Ken LeVan on 07/02/2020 13:47:15

Jul 2, 2020 - 1:44:09 PM

Alex Z

USA

3878 posts since 12/7/2006

" If I could have 2 identical banjos with the rim material being the only difference then maybe I can draw some empirical evidence."

There is another way, and that is by experience with a hundred similar banjos, or a thousand similar banjos, not two difference ones .   Geoff Stelling used block rims in the earlier years, then the supply stopped.  Then he hears the next 5,000 banjos he has made with a ply rim.  Then he hears the Tony Pass rim, and puts a few in his banjos.  He hears a significant difference, enough to change to the Tony Pass rim.  

Now, is the the size of the blocks? The type of glue?  Some things are known:  the type of wood makes a difference  (Mr. Pass heard a difference between maple and birch.)  The thickness affecting the inner diameter makes a differenc -- original, thin skirt, 600 thin skirt.

"I also have a old 7-ply Goodtime with Renaissance Head and it is brighter than my project banjo with cheap rim, brass rolled tone ring and Fiberskyn head. I think it is the head that accounts for it, and would like to switch them to see."

That's exactly it.  First, we hear a difference in sound, then we experiment with what might be causing that difference.  That's where experience comes in -- switch Fiberskyn for Renaissance on a few banjos,  and I think the differences will be apparent.  

The other way is to look at differences between Fiberskyn and Renaissaince -- thickness, rigidity, damping of coating, total weight, etc., and try to figure out how one should sound compared to the other.

For us, the difficulty is that it's easy to change out a head in a short time, and many types are available with an interchangeable fit.  For rims, not so easy, so I can understand the benefits of trying to figure out the direction the sound will go before experimenting with rims, given limited time.

Jul 2, 2020 - 1:56:33 PM

10958 posts since 6/2/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Ken LeVan
quote:
Originally posted by beegee

I'll go start the popcorn....


My machine is already started up—it's a "whirly-pop".


Mine look slike that, but it's called "Theater II"  made in Monon, Indiana.

Jul 2, 2020 - 2:07:52 PM
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13070 posts since 6/29/2005

quote:
Originally posted by rkdjones

I have been scratching my head for years about the role of the rim in the sound of an open-back banjo, particularly those with metal tone rings. So I looked in the archives and just recently Ken LeVan posted: if I may paraphrase, that the rim is a structural element and does not serve as a sounding board (though I would suspect it has a very minor role in that regard, since it does vibrate). Aluminum rims and composite rims have both been used successfully. I just put together a banjo with a rolled brass tone ring and the cheapest 5-ply rim that the Asian market ever produced.

So how does the rim affect tone (let's stick with 11" rims)?
- The internal diameter affects the resonance in the box. I think this would be more of an issue with banjos with resonators.
- Ken mentioned that the rigidity affects the plunkyness but didn't mention how. My speculation: if the rim deforms more easily it will absorb energy from the head vibration and dampen the higher frequencies. Is this the primary affect? (Then if I wanted a brighter tone, I could presumably lay up fiberglass on the inside of my cheap rim and make it stiffer, or substitute a beefier tension ring).

Robert


I can't take credit for any real scientific intelligence about the way rims work, but have made very many different banjos, with rims of many kinds of wood and construction, which is more instructive than making a million that are all the same, where you learn very little.  Anything I really understand about rims is based on my own experience.

What I "know" about the science of the whole thing, I've learned from David Politzer, a Nobel Prize winning physicist, who now teaches a class in banjo physics at Cal Tech (imagine taking a class in banjo physics taught by a Nobel Laureate theoretical physicist—wish I could, but I couldn't do the math).   Don't listen to me, I'm a designer /builder—read his papers about banjo physics here http://www.its.caltech.edu/~politzer/

My understanding is that most important thing about a rim is how rigidly it holds the head so that the head energy doesn’t get dissipated through the rim.  He says that “when a resonance in any part of the rim assembly absorbs energy from the head, the total sound production will be less than had all the energy stayed with the head”.

I have had the advantage of talking about this with him because it's one of those subjects that pits science against folklore and "conventional wisdom"—he says that the most important attributes of a banjo rim are physical characteristics: (stiffness / rigidity)  and geometry:  (1) the diameter is most important because it determines the size of the head (2) the depth is somewhat important because a deeper rim can alter the bass response vs the treble, and there has to be a balance.

The species of wood is of no importance other than for physical characteristics it provides i.e.stiffness/density—stiffness is desirable, and cosmetic / aesthetic reasons, which are important with banjos and all musical instruments,  so you want the wood that looks good and has the maximum amount of stiffness with the least amount of mass, and red maple has proven to be very good at that for hundreds of years.

Not to be redundant, but here's the page on my website discussing rims.

https://levanbanjos.com/levanbanjos.levandesign.com/Rims.html

knocking on a piece of wood or rim blank and being able to determine from that what the entire banjo is going to sound like is really a fantasy as is the idea that something in the cellular structure of walnut will produce a different sound than maple or birch if the physical characteristics and geometry are the same.

Yes—some amount of tone color can be attributed to the rim, but not as much as the neck (keep in mind that all the iconic Gibsons had maple rims).

Edited by - Ken LeVan on 07/02/2020 14:20:25

Jul 2, 2020 - 3:59:35 PM

978 posts since 1/9/2012

quote:
Originally posted by rkdjones

I have been scratching my head for years about the role of the rim in the sound of an open-back banjo, particularly those with metal tone rings. So I looked in the archives and just recently Ken LeVan posted: if I may paraphrase, that the rim is a structural element and does not serve as a sounding board (though I would suspect it has a very minor role in that regard, since it does vibrate). Aluminum rims and composite rims have both been used successfully. I just put together a banjo with a rolled brass tone ring and the cheapest 5-ply rim that the Asian market ever produced.

So how does the rim affect tone (let's stick with 11" rims)?
- The internal diameter affects the resonance in the box. I think this would be more of an issue with banjos with resonators.
- Ken mentioned that the rigidity affects the plunkyness but didn't mention how. My speculation: if the rim deforms more easily it will absorb energy from the head vibration and dampen the higher frequencies. Is this the primary affect? (Then if I wanted a brighter tone, I could presumably lay up fiberglass on the inside of my cheap rim and make it stiffer, or substitute a beefier tension ring).

Robert


To my mind, that's pretty much the whole story.  The head is very efficient at turning its vibration energy into radiated sound.  The other parts are much less so.  They vibrate and radiate, but most of that energy is turned into heat.  So their vibrations tend to filter out part of the sound.  However, you don't want to hear the full sound spectrum of a bare plucked string.  Even bluegrass fans want some filtering.  But people tend to get very particular about what they want to keep and what they want to reduce.

The back is a whole, big story.  If it's an open-back, it's up to you and not the luthier.  How you hold it certainly effects the sound, but that's for another day.

The air inside the pot certainly has subtle but discernible effects.  If the rim is a cylinder, the variables with the primary impact on the internal air are simply the height and diameter -- because it's the head that has the most significant coupling to that air.  And that air's motion reacts back onto the head -- with effects that you can hear.  However, many builders and some players know that the geometry of the rim right near the top edge impacts the sound.  My understanding is that the highest frequencies are radiated by the head vibrations near the edge.  Head vibrations further inward cancel the effect of their neighbors.  That's why "stuffers" put their sponges or socks against the rim, why Dobson and Bacon tone rings sound mellow, and why the Indian tabla and Remo Powerstroke (and other brand) drum heads have an extra layer around the edge.  Even if you just have a wood rim, the shape right at the top, inward from the contact with the head, effects the sound.  I've come to appreciate that people who are adamant know what they're talking about — even if they're using their ears and not differential equations.   ;)

Jul 2, 2020 - 5:30:34 PM

7414 posts since 8/28/2013

Terminology in describing sound is certainly a problem. One man's "tubby" could be another person's "muddy," or one man's "edgy" might be another person's "shrill."

Perhaps the best description of tone was something I read in a piano resource delineating the difference in tone between steel wrapped bass strings and copper wrapped bass strings. The steel was said to have a tone more like the sound of the letter "E," the copper sounded more like the letter "O." I think most everybody can hear that difference, and if we could compare a particular banjo's sound to a universally known sound such as a vowel or maybe a tire squealing, a chicken cackling, or a steak sizzling, we might understand each other a little better.

Jul 2, 2020 - 5:32:40 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

12726 posts since 8/30/2006

( ):)===‘== : :}


 

Jul 2, 2020 - 6:35:34 PM

115 posts since 2/16/2020

This has been remarkably informative. I have an education in physics so tend to look at things through that lens, and I like to tinker. I found the comment about the profile of the rim near the head particularly interesting, since I flipped the cheap rim to put a tone ring on top to keep decent spacing for the hooks. I will look at all the links provided.

With electronics, one can equalize frequencies to achieve a pleasing tone. If it were only that easy with a physical instrument.

Robert

Jul 3, 2020 - 5:07:59 AM

13070 posts since 6/29/2005

I think the idea that the amount of head contact to the tone ring, as has been expressed is very important, and something that is an area that can be experimented with.  Another geometric aspect of banjo construction that we just take for granted.

We're used to the amount of contact you get with a 1/4" diameter hoop and/or the radius of the top edge of a Mastertone  tone ring.  I recall Dan Gellert pointing out that there is a lot of latitude in the shape of the head bearing—certainly the head bearing is much sharper on an archtop MT than on a flathead (among other significant differences).

Many of the mummer string bands in Philadelphia use a banjo called the "Jany", which must be very loud (although I have never heard one up close), that has the largest head bearing surface I have seen.  I have yet to see one of these made into a 5-string.

Jul 3, 2020 - 7:07:50 AM

7414 posts since 8/28/2013

Two things come to mind concerning a larger head contact area. One is whether it's the actual contact that makes the difference, or if it's the smaller freely vibrating surface of the actual head (it would seem to me that the large bearing surface would inhibit the actual vibrating membrane). Also, the amount of air moved by the vibrating head would also be affected, and this might also affect the tone and volume.

The other thought is whether or not more vibrations are actually tranferred to the rim/tone ring and thus increase the tonal contribution of the rim and ring, or if, in fact, the vibrations are actually dampened somewhat by having to move a rather massive ring.

Certainly, the Jany is an extreme example, and I, too, have never heard or played one. I can only wonder that if it is indeed loud, if it actually has any kind of desirable tone in a quieter setting than that of a parade with a group of other loud banjos.

Jul 3, 2020 - 9:25:50 AM
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13070 posts since 6/29/2005

quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

Two things come to mind concerning a larger head contact area. One is whether it's the actual contact that makes the difference, or if it's the smaller freely vibrating surface of the actual head (it would seem to me that the large bearing surface would inhibit the actual vibrating membrane). Also, the amount of air moved by the vibrating head would also be affected, and this might also affect the tone and volume.

The other thought is whether or not more vibrations are actually tranferred to the rim/tone ring and thus increase the tonal contribution of the rim and ring, or if, in fact, the vibrations are actually dampened somewhat by having to move a rather massive ring.

Certainly, the Jany is an extreme example, and I, too, have never heard or played one. I can only wonder that if it is indeed loud, if it actually has any kind of desirable tone in a quieter setting than that of a parade with a group of other loud banjos.


Here's a description from the builder's obit in the Phila Enquirer:

"Emery "Jim" Ivan, 81, of Southwest Philadelphia, a banjo maker for Mummers string bands...Mr. Ivan made his first banjo in the early 1960s. At the time, he played the mandolin and paraded New Year's Day with the South Philadelphia String Band.

The players needed banjos with "lungs," he told a Philadelphia Daily News reporter in 1992, meaning instruments with ringing tones to carry a melody along the concrete canyon of Broad Street.

The banjo he designed had 22 frets, four more than most tenor banjos. It had a higher range and extra volume to provide a rhythmic background for saxophones and glockenspiels.

Mr. Ivan named his banjo Jany, a Hungarian word pronounced "Johnny." His parents, Elizabeth and Gergerly, were Hungarian."

 

AND, you can hear what they sound like—tough to translate this into a 5-string banjo sound, but it definitely sounds like a banjo:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kob2uDSnb8

Jul 4, 2020 - 7:44:51 AM

7414 posts since 8/28/2013

It may be the recording equipment, or it could be my crummy playback set-up, but I found the recording, although it did sound like a banjo, to be somewhat lacking in low end sound. I don't think that's a detriment for competition with saxophones and glockenspiels, though, and it's probably perfect for a parade.

I do wonder, though, if some of the exra volume is due to a possibly higher string tension due to having 22 frets rather than the usual tenor's 19.

I also believe that the small speaking area of the head probably increases the emphasis on higher overtons, which is likely helpful for a tenor banjo, and may give the illusion of added volume.

Persoanlly, from what I heard, I think these janys would make lousy bluegrass instruments. A 5 string banjo would be tuned differently, and the lower pitches of the top two strings may not exite the structure like the D and A of a tenor, and there is also that (at least in my opinion) that lack of low end that I cited earlier.

It might be interesting to try the idea, though; it might even help in figuring out if or how different rim/tone ring and head area configurations might be influencing the overall tone.

I leave it to you, Ken, to attempt to build one of these, if you desire (or can find a market for one!).

Jul 4, 2020 - 9:08:50 AM

13070 posts since 6/29/2005

quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

It may be the recording equipment, or it could be my crummy playback set-up, but I found the recording, although it did sound like a banjo, to be somewhat lacking in low end sound. I don't think that's a detriment for competition with saxophones and glockenspiels, though, and it's probably perfect for a parade.

I do wonder, though, if some of the exra volume is due to a possibly higher string tension due to having 22 frets rather than the usual tenor's 19.

I also believe that the small speaking area of the head probably increases the emphasis on higher overtons, which is likely helpful for a tenor banjo, and may give the illusion of added volume.

Persoanlly, from what I heard, I think these janys would make lousy bluegrass instruments. A 5 string banjo would be tuned differently, and the lower pitches of the top two strings may not exite the structure like the D and A of a tenor, and there is also that (at least in my opinion) that lack of low end that I cited earlier.

It might be interesting to try the idea, though; it might even help in figuring out if or how different rim/tone ring and head area configurations might be influencing the overall tone.

I leave it to you, Ken, to attempt to build one of these, if you desire (or can find a market for one!).


I'm certainly not going to build one of these, although I did get an inquiry one time from a mummer string band player for a plectrum—if you look at pictures of mummer bands,they have Gibson Mastertones, B&Ds Weymanns, Vegas, everything imaginable, and the fancier the better, so the Janys are just one variety.

I also get inquiries from time to time from Irish tenor players, but they usually don't come to fruition.

I think the various "factions", for lack of a better term,  of the banjo world— bluegrass, old-time, period reënactors, classic, folk singers, Irish tenor, jazz, string bands like mummers, eclectic, and others I haven't thought of, each have a paricular sound they like and a particular kind of banjo.

If you were to make a venn diagram of this, there would be places where the various categoties intersect and overlap and the lines are blurry.  I wonder what kind of banjo would have the most universal application?

Edited by - Ken LeVan on 07/04/2020 09:14:42

Jul 4, 2020 - 9:48:25 AM
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7414 posts since 8/28/2013

"If you were to make a venn diagram of this, there would be places where the various categoties intersect and overlap and the lines are blurry. I wonder what kind of banjo would have the most universal application?"

That's subject that calls for at least a billion pound bag of popcorn!

Jul 4, 2020 - 1:10:12 PM

13070 posts since 6/29/2005

quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

"If you were to make a venn diagram of this, there would be places where the various categoties intersect and overlap and the lines are blurry. I wonder what kind of banjo would have the most universal application?"

That's subject that calls for at least a billion pound bag of popcorn!


It would be a lot more fun than "what kind of wood makes the best sounding rim?"

Jul 5, 2020 - 6:29:12 AM

7414 posts since 8/28/2013

It's always more fun with more popcorn!

Actually, I agree that it would be more interesting than the wood question, which to me is now in the realm of "beating a dead (rim) horse."

There may actually be a design that works at least decently for all genres. I suspect some of the Vega banjos might be good candidates. They're certainly of use to four string players, and are desirable for "old time" styles. I do think that maybe the best one can do, though, is a banjo that works for a majority, but not all, styles. I also suspect that much of it would be preference.

Maybe it's good that no one has explored this "universal" concept. It could put a damper on banjo sales if players only bought one banjo, instead of one banjo for each genre.

Edited by - G Edward Porgie on 07/05/2020 06:34:50

Jul 5, 2020 - 1:54:22 PM

13070 posts since 6/29/2005

quote:
Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

It's always more fun with more popcorn!

Actually, I agree that it would be more interesting than the wood question, which to me is now in the realm of "beating a dead (rim) horse."

There may actually be a design that works at least decently for all genres. I suspect some of the Vega banjos might be good candidates. They're certainly of use to four string players, and are desirable for "old time" styles. I do think that maybe the best one can do, though, is a banjo that works for a majority, but not all, styles. I also suspect that much of it would be preference.

Maybe it's good that no one has explored this "universal" concept. It could put a damper on banjo sales if players only bought one banjo, instead of one banjo for each genre.


I think I'm going to explore this a little bit because it's interesting— I'll probably start a new thread once I figure out how to organize it so commentors (commenters?) can alter the thing.

Construction-wise, the classic Gibson Mastertone started as a resonator 4-string used for Jazz, so you'd have to say that it's extremely good for that, but what about Irish tenor banjo music?

Likewise, the TuBaPhones and Whyte Laydies started as 5 strings, usually nylon strung, and evolved into resonator Jazz banjos in the mid 2000s, and folk music banjos, still good for that but never "Made it" as bluegrass banjos.  What are the attributes that make a particular banjo work for a particular "task" (Pete Seeger said his banjo was a "tool", and Jazz players probably refer to it as their "axe").

I think there has to be a kind of "brand-loyalty" bias, so I'll stick with basic constructions and not brands—i.e. a Gibson Mastertone , a Stelling, various Deering models and a Baldwin Ode are all the same thing categorically.  The difference between a tenor, plectrum and 4-string is the neck, so doesn't constitute a separate category.

Jul 5, 2020 - 6:18:17 PM

7414 posts since 8/28/2013

I had also considered the Gibson Mastertone, but decided to go with Vega because the Gibsons were not the most popular brand, at least at the time, in the four string world.

That said, I agree that a tread along these lines could be very interesting and that name brands should be kept out of the equation. Construction would be paramount (there I go, mentioning a name brand!) and could be very informative about what makes a banjo tick, not to mention why certain set-ups and other features make for a better sound for a particular genre.

Unfortunately, I still fear that some people wouldl be adamant about one particular idea or even one particular myth. There are already those who will tell you "It's the rim," while others will say, "it's that prewar wood," while there will be those who lay claim to a good, heavy, tone ring.

Jul 9, 2020 - 3:25:27 PM

27 posts since 3/24/2020

Hmm now you’ve got me thinking of making a bamboo (compressed grass) block rim. I’ve been set on trying a bamboo neck for the next banjo. There is a crowd in Holland banbooimport.com that do bamboo beams in Europe.

Jul 9, 2020 - 4:10:31 PM
Players Union Member

Helix

USA

12726 posts since 8/30/2006

BAMBOO:  I'm glad to confer off forum if you like, text me first, my number is in my classified ads
I build both rims and necks from bamboo flooring. I have the #001 and there are 9 others being played
ALWAYS use the vertical flooring with 15 laminations. Never use the horizontal with only 5

Lumber liquidators seems to have gone out of business

I build rims that are called “buildups“ in the cabinetmaker’s field and pro terminology

I believe shape is everything

there is one species of fly that buzzes around until the male sees a female and then he can fly 90 mph for a short distance to catch the female and fall to the ground and mate. He does this with the same two wings he flies with normally.  Scientists are still working on how he does it by shooting BB's painted to look like females

 

i think we are just scratching the surface here in this thread 

 

I use the same banjo o strum and play solos

dont deliberately misunderstand me,  many have ears to hear


Edited by - Helix on 07/09/2020 16:28:23

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