Banjo Hangout Logo
Banjo Hangout Logo

Premier Sponsors

211
Banjo Lovers Online


Admiration for Conviction

Want to hide these Google ads? Join the Players Union!

Page: 1  2   3   4  ...   Next Page   Last Page (5) 

Oct 10, 2019 - 7:54:45 AM
like this
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

7169 posts since 6/30/2015

I am not a religious person, and this is not intended to be a religious discussion. I hope I'm not, and do not intend to violate BHO rules.

That being said, I have always admired people who are honestly believers and practitioners, not only of their faith, but other convictions. I have a problem when these beliefs cause conflict, or harm to others, both in and out of their, for lack of a better word, organizations.

Last night I was searching the net for information and pricing and availability of the newly released Photoshop Elements 2020. In my search I went to the B&H Photo home page. I have purchased products from them in the past, and found them a good company to do business with. While on the page I noticed that they were not taking any orders due the celebration of Yom Kippur. You could add items to a wish list, or leave a message and they would email you when Yom Kippur ended, but you could not place an order. Given that web orders are automated, there is virtually no human intervention until the order is packed and shipped, and sometimes not even then, that you can place orders during hours when stores are closed and the fact that there are probably thousands of other sites where I could place an order, I was very impressed. Their faith was stronger than any of the money they may have lost during that 24 hour period. This impressed me.

In Shrewsbury, Massachusetts there used to be a store called Spag's. Shopping at Spag's was a great experience. This was long before big box stores, but there were lots of chain department stores. Spag's did not take credit cards, cash only. They did not give out bags, but you could pick up empty shipping boxes in the store to carry out your purchase. Every spring Spag's gave free tomato plants to customers, no purchase necessary. Spag's was able to undercut virtually anyone in price. I once sat next to a Delta Machinery sales rep on an airplane and he said he didn't know how, but Spag's was the single largest seller of Delta woodworking equipment in the Northeast. When Massachusetts eliminated the Blue Law that prohibited shopping on Sunday, Spag's remained closed. Signage and ads said that they were closed so that employees, and customers could spend time with their families. It didn't matter that they would lose business to the chain across the street, they were closed on Sunday. When the founder passed away, the family made changes, they began accepting credit cards, and they opened on Sunday. Spag's no longer exists. I doubt there is any causation-correlation, but either way, I always admired Mr Borgatti for his stance and keeping his doors closed one day a week, just as I admire B&H Photo.

Oct 10, 2019 - 8:16:47 AM
like this
Players Union Member

rinemb

USA

11558 posts since 5/24/2005

Hobby Lobby and Chick Filet have been routinely blasted due to their "convictions". Like you, I also admire those that will stand by their convictions over increased profits.

I am not sure I would be as strong, if I were in a business like that. I routinely remain on a job through Easter, and other high holidays, except Christmas.

Then I believe any business should be able to choose when they are open, closed, for any reason...and mostly be able to choose their customers...if they are not taking gov money. Their choice, fail or prosper according to their choices.
Brad

Oct 10, 2019 - 8:51:09 AM

mander

USA

3778 posts since 10/7/2007

Yes, it is admirable to see those stand by their convictions. Most of the folks I know abandon their "convictions" as soon as they no longer serve them. That said, there is a fine line between standing by convictions and just being bull headed. :-)

I, too appreciated a local store here for being closed one day a week, dispite it being their potentially best day. I was sad when they recently decided to be open that day. Now I do my best to shop on that day so that they don't feel bad about.


 

Edited by - mander on 10/10/2019 08:53:28

Oct 10, 2019 - 9:07:05 AM

906 posts since 12/2/2013

Brad, I take exception to your third paragraph: Most retail stores today are not one-person operations and the owner may be of a different religious persuasion from some of his employees so I think it is easier to respect "holidays" (probably a consensus definition) rather than pick and choose. So, Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, important Jewish and Muslim holy days, as well as US national days of "recognition" (Memorial Day, July Fourth) should be recognized "personal days," whatever the reason.
The vulgar importance of just making money became too important to us too long ago.

Oct 10, 2019 - 9:15:45 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

7169 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by rinemb

Hobby Lobby and Chick Filet have been routinely blasted due to their "convictions". Like you, I also admire those that will stand by their convictions over increased profits.

I am not sure I would be as strong, if I were in a business like that. I routinely remain on a job through Easter, and other high holidays, except Christmas.

Then I believe any business should be able to choose when they are open, closed, for any reason...and mostly be able to choose their customers...if they are not taking gov money. Their choice, fail or prosper according to their choices.
Brad


Yes, sometimes it's hard to find where the line is.  Neither B&H, nor Spag's either ran afoul of government rules.  Not that I generally agree with government rules.  Certainly it would be within the rights of the public to not shop at Spag's because they didn't open on Sundays.  Hobby Lobby also closes on Sunday, but their refusal to allow certain health benefits is a different story.  Then again, employment is at will, and if you don't like the benefits, work someplace else.  As I said in my OP, as long as you don't harm others.  Chic-Fil-A, in word and deed has, IMHO, inflicted some harm.  If your belief says it is OK to fly airplanes into office buildings, that is a conviction that I can't agree with.  If B&H Photo, in addition to not taking orders on Yom Kippur, also refused to take orders from known gentiles, my respect would diminish.  Regarding HL and C-F-A, I simply don't shop there.  Clearly they are not hurt by my decision.  I don't think I'm hurting Levi Straus much either by not buying their product.   The line is different for different people.  Your mileage may vary. 

Oct 10, 2019 - 9:46:36 AM
likes this

4189 posts since 8/3/2012

--"Hobby Lobby also closes on Sunday, but their refusal to allow certain health benefits is a different story."

HL is not "disallowing" anything. They are simply refusing to PAY for practices which are against their convictions.

--"Chic-Fil-A, in word and deed has, IMHO, inflicted some harm."

I am not aware of any harm that the Chik-Fil-A company has inflicted on anyone.

Oct 10, 2019 - 10:59:06 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

7169 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by OldBlindGuy

--"Hobby Lobby also closes on Sunday, but their refusal to allow certain health benefits is a different story."

HL is not "disallowing" anything. They are simply refusing to PAY for practices which are against their convictions.

--"Chic-Fil-A, in word and deed has, IMHO, inflicted some harm."

I am not aware of any harm that the Chik-Fil-A company has inflicted on anyone.


Correct on both accounts.  As I stated, no one has to work for, or shop at either company.  If you don't like HL's benefit package go someplace else.  I should have probably used a different word than allow.

C-F-A, as a company, has not done anything, so I misspoke there too.  It is the comments of the CEO and founder, mostly in his condemnation of gay marriage.  On the other side of the coin, the (over)reaction to these comments have also been harmful.  His public condemnation of gay marriage sparked most of the controversy, which has led to many protests and counter protests.  The company itself does not discriminate.  They donate to organizations that some find offensive, but they are legal organizations.  

Still, I admire that both companies, in standing by their ideals, close on Sundays.  

Oct 10, 2019 - 11:19:05 AM

4189 posts since 8/3/2012

--"It is the comments of the CEO and founder, mostly in his condemnation of gay marriage."

We seem to have a different perception of what "harm" means. I don't consider a peaceful, honest statement of one's beliefs to be inflicting harm on another.
I also find no fault in the PEACEFUL protests and boycotts of his detractors.

Oct 10, 2019 - 12:02:54 PM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

7169 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by OldBlindGuy

--"It is the comments of the CEO and founder, mostly in his condemnation of gay marriage."

We seem to have a different perception of what "harm" means. I don't consider a peaceful, honest statement of one's beliefs to be inflicting harm on another.
I also find no fault in the PEACEFUL protests and boycotts of his detractors.


Life can be complicated, that's what makes it so interesting.  I don't consider the following quote by Dan Cathy to be peaceful, but you may. “I think we are inviting God’s judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say ‘we know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage’ and I pray God’s mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about,”  If I were the child of a gay couple this could raise questions about my parents that could be considered harmful.

Same on the peaceful protest front.  Carry all the signs you want in front of the store, but when a bunch of students can prevent the business from opening on campus, or when the mayor of Boston says he will do everything in his power to prevent the chain from opening a store, you cause harm to potential employees.  It the store opens and nobody shops there and it closes, that is one thing, but to block the opening is another.  

Chick Fil A is not a bad company, they don't have bad policies.  In fact, when the Orlando gay nightclub shooting took place, C-F-A broke their own no Sunday policy to provide food for free to all the first responders and emergency personal.  This, in fact, goes along with the founders belief systems.  Cathy did not intend his comments to be harmful, but he was in a position where they got a lot of publicity.  Not intending harm, and doing harm are not the same thing.  "I didn't mean to pull the trigger" does not absolve.  

Cathy was well within his rights to say what he did.  Protesters are well within their rights to peacefully protest and boycott.  Customers are within their rights to shop, or not shop where they wish.  

Wow, did this get far from the point I was trying to make.

Oct 10, 2019 - 12:05:23 PM
like this

8902 posts since 2/22/2007

We now live in a world where somebody holding a different opinion is "harming" you. Same if they advocate for what you are against; that is now "hate".
Beware of those who change the meanings of words! It a subversive and most effective means of thought control.

Oct 10, 2019 - 12:11:06 PM

Owen

Canada

4089 posts since 6/5/2011

 
Originally posted by mander

<snip>... Most of the folks I know abandon their "convictions" as soon as they no longer serve them.  <snip>


Some might be wishy-washy as a matter of principle.  Doesn't that deserve some respect, too?   wink

Oct 10, 2019 - 12:12:19 PM
Players Union Member

rinemb

USA

11558 posts since 5/24/2005

Heck, I am just surprised the thread has lasted this long. I think it will be difficult to keep R&P out of it. But, lets give it a go, eh.

I don't care who owns B&H, back in my film camera days I too bought a lot of stuff from them. (how could you not when the took about twenty pages or so worth of ad space in the photography mags) Now if the owners were out there saying because I am a redhead and therefore, me and those like me should be eliminated, I would likely not buy from them.

Brad

Oct 10, 2019 - 12:21:10 PM

donc

Canada

6009 posts since 2/9/2010

Every human being has to be judged on their own merits. Religious labeling has become an undependable tool for evaluating anyone.

Oct 10, 2019 - 12:31:37 PM
like this

Mooooo

USA

7123 posts since 8/20/2016

When I lived in Germany, I was pleasantly surprised to find that the entire country was closed on Sunday. And, it seems Spags is a lot like Aldi, they don't give out bags, and provide boxes for free. They aren't closed on Sunday here, but they are in Germany. I wish companies would respect the workers enough to give everyone the same day off to rest with family and friends. There's no need for every store in the country to be open every single day of the week...but I guess Walmart would protest. Don't get me started on Black Friday...I'm not religious either but companies who force their workers to work overnight on Black Thursday/Friday should go to hell.

Oct 10, 2019 - 12:52:16 PM

m06

England

7859 posts since 10/5/2006

quote:
Originally posted by DC5

>Their faith was stronger than any of the money they may have lost during that 24 hour period.<


Of course.

Regardless which major world faith, all are inherently a connection to and accordance with a philosophy that ensures false value is not attributed or elevated. That universal core element of faith is fundamental and, once truly recognised and accepted, is deeply calming and empowering.

The business owners you refer to would have no sense of relinquishing or foregoing anything. Because what they are attending and devoting their time and thought to is absolutely understood to have far greater value and a deeper guiding focus. Real meaning.

Edited by - m06 on 10/10/2019 13:02:54

Oct 10, 2019 - 1:00:39 PM
likes this

m06

England

7859 posts since 10/5/2006

quote:
Originally posted by donc

>Religious labeling has become an undependable tool for evaluating anyone.<


True. But you wouldn't eat a yoghurt simply on the label, without confirming the contents hadn't gone off.

Labels are just labels.

Oct 10, 2019 - 1:06:32 PM
likes this
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

7169 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

We now live in a world where somebody holding a different opinion is "harming" you. Same if they advocate for what you are against; that is now "hate".
Beware of those who change the meanings of words! It a subversive and most effective means of thought control.


I agree.  The word "hate" is thrown around way too easily, and it is virtually impossible to defend against.  There is a major difference between disrespect, ignorance, and hate.  If I, unknowingly, offend you, that is ignorance.  If you calmly explain why what I say is offensive, and without anger or disrespect, listen to my questions, then we all learn and all improve.  If I continue, then I am disrespectful.  It is ONLY hate if I push to the point of inferring harm.  Orwell warned us of the power of the thought police, and the harm that can come.  I dislike it when people redefine words as their own, and then don't allow others to use them.  

Oct 10, 2019 - 1:29:27 PM
likes this

1842 posts since 1/16/2010

I thank my lucky stars that I barely missed growing up in this current society. I was confused enough trying to learn all the math, science, and literature in school without all the other personal non school related aspects kids are exposed to today. The world of everybody being offended because somebody else is offended sure is perplexing to say the least.

Oct 10, 2019 - 5:02:18 PM
likes this

m06

England

7859 posts since 10/5/2006

quote:
Originally posted by DC5
quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

We now live in a world where somebody holding a different opinion is "harming" you. Same if they advocate for what you are against; that is now "hate".
Beware of those who change the meanings of words! It a subversive and most effective means of thought control.


> Orwell warned us of the power of the thought police, and the harm that can come.<


Orwell's 1984 was a prophetic warning of the nature of totalitarianism and power's relentless dismantling of liberty in the quest for total control. Orwell showed us the consequence of that ultimate control; power with the means to insidiously define and disseminate it's own version of the 'truth'. It is a nightmarish vision of anti-society and life without meaning.

Oct 11, 2019 - 4:53:38 AM
likes this

4189 posts since 8/3/2012

quote:
Originally posted by m06
quote:
Originally posted by DC5
 

> Orwell warned us of the power of the thought police, and the harm that can come.<


Orwell's 1984 was a prophetic warning of the nature of totalitarianism and power's relentless dismantling of liberty in the quest for total control. Orwell showed us the consequence of that ultimate control; power with the means to insidiously define and disseminate it's own version of the 'truth'. It is a nightmarish vision of anti-society and life without meaning.


... just one more reason why I don't watch television anymore.

devil

Oct 11, 2019 - 6:06:43 AM

Owen

Canada

4089 posts since 6/5/2011

quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e

We now live in a world where somebody holding a different opinion is "harming" you. Same if they advocate for what you are against; that is now "hate".
Beware of those who change the meanings of words! It a subversive and most effective means of thought control.


It's just my observations, and I don't claim to be the most perceptive dude around, but in my part of the world, with the people I associate with, and the "news" I get, I've not noticed the first part of your statement [re. harming/hate] to be true.  ...maybe I don't get out enuff.

However I've encountered a fair bit of people being "creative" with words. .... maybe I should stay home, leave the radio/TV/laptop off,  and play more banjo. 

Edited by - Owen on 10/11/2019 06:15:27

Oct 11, 2019 - 6:40:26 AM
like this

8902 posts since 2/22/2007

Owen, the disease is rampant on many college campuses these days. A proposed speaker will be cancelled because some students feel threatened by their ideas. It is claimed that a speaker's words and opinions would make them feel unsafe. Anyone threatened by ideas and opinions has shown themselves to be too immature and intellectually unfit for college. Any college that coddles and accommodates such notions is doing a grave disservice to those students---akin to graduating a high school student who remains illiterate---- and to society, and has lost all integrity.
"Harm" is also the rationale for calls for censorship of words, which are thoughts,--- in many arenas beyond the campus these days. Orwellian control doesn't have to imposed by force. Many will clamor for it.

Oct 11, 2019 - 6:44:45 AM
Players Union Member

DC5

USA

7169 posts since 6/30/2015

quote:
Originally posted by banjo bill-e


"Harm" is also the rationale for calls for censorship of words, which are thoughts,--- in many arenas beyond the campus these days. Orwellian control doesn't have to imposed by force. Many will clamor for it.


Take the internet, cell phones, facebook, twitter, etc. for example.  Oh and don't forget all those "smart" appliances and speakers in your home.  

Oct 11, 2019 - 6:53:43 AM
like this

chuckv97

Canada

43497 posts since 10/5/2013
Online Now

Unfortunately a speaker’s words and ideas can incite violence.

Oct 11, 2019 - 7:48:13 AM

Owen

Canada

4089 posts since 6/5/2011

Bill, I wonder if censorship [one example being canceling campus speakers] is much more rampant (?) today than in at some periods in the past.  I'm not aware of any reliable stats, and I don't know just what the basis should be, but I will acknowledge that in our era of "instant communications" we surely hear about such things much sooner, and the bleating [i.e. moronic "put downs" that social media seems to thrive on] is certainly more visible. 

My admittedly inexpert opinion is that chances are it's one of those societal traits that "pendulums" .... and currently the closed-minded faction* seems to be on the upswing, though in the long term, I trust the global society is becoming more tolerant rather than less tolerant.  

* = my layman's mind sees a correlation between closed-mindedness and an ideological mindset  we can't discuss here.

Edited by - Owen on 10/11/2019 07:54:08

Oct 11, 2019 - 7:50:32 AM
like this

Paul R

Canada

11637 posts since 1/28/2010

quote:
Originally posted by chuckv97

Unfortunately a speaker’s words and ideas can incite violence.


As someone wrote: "You are not only responsible for what you say, but for what people hear."

Too many people are not looking for enlightenment, ideas, or information, but for validation.

Page: 1  2   3   4  ...   Next Page   Last Page (5) 

Hangout Network Help

View All Topics  |  View Categories

0.40625