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Sep 18, 2019 - 5:04:39 PM
5116 posts since 9/16/2004

It's that crazy syncopation that alludes me. I think it's some kind of forward roll. I've heard allot of people play it wrong... and a few like Charley Cushman play it right, like in the attachment.  Where does the synco gap occur?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-H1oUMvJSk 

Sep 18, 2019 - 5:22:47 PM

chuckv97

Canada

43391 posts since 10/5/2013

Starts like the Cripple Creek slide, except at the 12th to 17th frets. Then it’s forward rolls beginning on the 5th string so you hear the melody note late - on the downbeat of the 2 beat of the C measure. That’s the way I hear it,, and see it in the Scruggs book.

Edited by - chuckv97 on 09/18/2019 17:23:23

Sep 18, 2019 - 5:44:38 PM

843 posts since 8/7/2017

That's a really neat version, thanks for posting the url. I think synco is one of the coolest things about bluegrass banjo.

I slowed the song to 50% with youtube, and could identify some of the areas of synco...but have no idea how he played it...my excuse is I claw, but the real reason is Charley is too cool :-)

One thing I found learning synco on claw: I have to feel it, and let my fingers take control. I can't analyze the H***out of it and then try to tell my fingers what to do. If I just let the song flow, it will happen, but when I try to deliberately play synco, that usually fails. My explanation is that synco is right brain, analysis is left brain - right brain is non-verbal, and completely drops off-line once you start talking to yourself.

If this helps, great. If not, darn, but thanks for posting the neat song anyway.

Sep 18, 2019 - 6:03:19 PM

5116 posts since 9/16/2004

Thanks Chuck... I have a Scruggs book somewhere but can't find it. But what you wrote makes sense to me... cept, what's the downbeat? I think it's the "and" in the one and two and three and four timing count... right?

This is why what Brooks MT wrote also makes sense... it's like you get the feeling for the melody and then it just happens without thinking about it.

The Syncho Part I'm referring to happens at the 27 second mark in the attached video in the original post

Edited by - Frisco Fred on 09/18/2019 18:14:12

Sep 18, 2019 - 6:22:44 PM

chuckv97

Canada

43391 posts since 10/5/2013

Hi Fred,, the downbeat is the first half of the beat, not the “and” which is usually called the upbeat. Here’s a tab of the first bit of the tune which closely follows what Charlie is playing.


 

Sep 18, 2019 - 6:26:56 PM

chuckv97

Canada

43391 posts since 10/5/2013

At the :27 second mark is where he does the same “Cripple Creek” type of slide again. You have to time the start of that slide just right, if you remember. Look up the tab in the BHO tab archive,, it’s the one by Jim Pankey.

Sep 18, 2019 - 8:47:24 PM

18 posts since 3/4/2017

I find the Scruggs book tab to have many errors on Sally Ann, I've had to figure out my own way. Anyone determine the same thing?

Sep 18, 2019 - 9:18:20 PM
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chuckv97

Canada

43391 posts since 10/5/2013

quote:
Originally posted by nitehawk0z

I find the Scruggs book tab to have many errors on Sally Ann, I've had to figure out my own way. Anyone determine the same thing?


Hi nitehawk,,, the old book or the revised one?  I find both had some errors,, but the revised one has the annoying “ghost slides” , as I like to call’em.  I haven’t checked the whole tab for Sally Ann against Earl’s recording on “Foggy Mountain Banjo”.  The first few measures look ok to me.

Sep 19, 2019 - 4:41:22 AM
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3141 posts since 12/6/2009

I don’t read tab but always learned from what I heard. Saying that however I also realized long ago that as important was how you perceived that rhythm. Playing banjo is rhythm driven. If you can play while having that rhythm in your head things become easier. You have to remember these guys are playing with others that are providing the drive needed. Tab is ok to see where notes may go with what fingers I suppose. But an instrumental like Sally Ann needs that drive which allows your fingers to do what’s needed.
It’s very hard to explain….I usually can get something after I am completely warmed up and I have an out source rhythm either by someone playing bass or guitar…and now as I am older and no one’s around anymore I rely solely on a drum machine as my back ground rhythm. This frees up my brain to allow my fingers to flow through the beat not so much with the beat. As far as I see Sally Ann is majority forward roll…and is a simple tune repetitive.
For the beat, listen to it being played and tap your foot and you will hear and feel where that down beat is. Then you will also see and hear what those notes are doing. I like this video of Earl as it is clear and concise and easier to see what’s going on.
I don’t read tab but always learned from what I heard. Saying that however I also realized long ago that as important was how you perceived that rhythm. Playing banjo is rhythm driven. If you can play while having that rhythm in your head things become easier. You have to remember these guys are playing with others that are providing the drive needed. Tab is ok to see where notes may go with what fingers I suppose. But an instrumental like Sally Ann needs that drive which allows your fingers to do what’s needed.
It’s very hard to explain….I usually can get something after I am completely warmed up and I have an out source rhythm either by someone playing bass or guitar…and now as I am older and no one’s around anymore I rely solely on a drum machine as my back ground rhythm. This frees up my brain to allow my fingers to flow through the beat not so much with the beat. As far as I see Sally Ann is majority forward roll…and is a simple tune repetitive.
For the beat, listen to it being played and tap your foot and you will hear and feel where that down beat is. Then you will also see and hear what those notes are doing. I like this video of Earl as it is clear and concise and easier to see what’s going on.
youtube.com/watch?v=U8e4brXmMa0

Sep 19, 2019 - 5:00:33 AM
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1929TB3

USA

52 posts since 10/12/2011

Fred,

Seems you are speaking specifically regarding the syncopated roll beginning at 0:27?

If so (as I hear it), fret the third string at 16, the second at 15, and the first at 14. The roll begins as a forward roll with thumb on third, index on second, middle on first.

Timing: I hear these rolls as sixteenth notes (if in 4/4 time). The roll begin with two sixteenth notes before the downbeat (thumb, index, as fretted above). The downbeat coincides with the middle finger noted on the 14th fret. Then continue with the same forward roll again, fretted the same way.

Next, theres a box roll, beginning with the 5th string, then followed by the second, third, and first strings as fretted above. Next, a forward roll on fifth, second, and finally the third fretted on the 17th fret.

Sep 19, 2019 - 7:37:35 AM
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3200 posts since 7/12/2006

you ever listen to ralph stanley's "Fling Ding"? it sounds like his version of sally ann. he burns it up.

Sep 19, 2019 - 7:49:06 AM
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chuckv97

Canada

43391 posts since 10/5/2013

Here’s an album I had years ago with “Dine-E-O” , aka Sally Ann, on it, with Alan Shelton on banjo,,,, linked here.youtu.be/XMU6nE2wSxk


 

Edited by - chuckv97 on 09/19/2019 07:54:59

Sep 19, 2019 - 8:24:01 AM
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mander

USA

3778 posts since 10/7/2007

Sallys are never simple. Why should we be? :-)

Sep 19, 2019 - 8:27:41 AM

153 posts since 6/22/2012

If you can play cripple creek, it's pretty simple.
Playing it at speed is another matter completely.

Sep 19, 2019 - 11:03:33 AM

891 posts since 6/6/2008

quote:
Originally posted by Frisco Fred

It's that crazy syncopation that alludes me. I think it's some kind of forward roll. I've heard allot of people play it wrong... and a few like Charley Cushman play it right, like in the attachment.  Where does the synco gap occur?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-H1oUMvJSk 


I think Syncopation requires a 'feel'.  It's more than playing notes or tab.... feeling the sync is part of the 'it' factor that eludes many players.   A drummer (a good drummer) is a perfect example:  they aren't just clubbing on drums, they play the beat and feel (fill) the gaps with syncopation.   A person can listen to a song over and over and over and many times can finally get the feel which will help learn how to add syncopation.  

Edited by - o2playlikeEarl on 09/19/2019 11:07:34

Sep 19, 2019 - 1:27:23 PM

2019 posts since 4/5/2006

I never bothered to learn Sally Ann for years, because the first issue Scruggs book had a mistake that made the timing sound goofy, and everyone played that goofy version which drove me nuts. It wasn't until I heard a vocal rendition of Sally Ann that made the timing, the breaks, everything gel, that I started playing it. By then I didn't need the tab, ears were good enough to make the fingers go where they needed to go. I think it was the Mugwamps Bill Keith & Jim Green album.

Sep 19, 2019 - 1:45:43 PM

5116 posts since 9/16/2004

quote:
Originally posted by 1929TB3

Fred,

Seems you are speaking specifically regarding the syncopated roll beginning at 0:27?

If so (as I hear it), fret the third string at 16, the second at 15, and the first at 14. The roll begins as a forward roll with thumb on third, index on second, middle on first.

Timing: I hear these rolls as sixteenth notes (if in 4/4 time). The roll begin with two sixteenth notes before the downbeat (thumb, index, as fretted above). The downbeat coincides with the middle finger noted on the 14th fret. Then continue with the same forward roll again, fretted the same way.

Next, theres a box roll, beginning with the 5th string, then followed by the second, third, and first strings as fretted above. Next, a forward roll on fifth, second, and finally the third fretted on the 17th fret.


Yup, watching Jim Mills play it, it looks that's the allusive note.... heard on the attached video @ the 31 sec. mark and again @ the 1:21~22 mark is in fact the third string at the 16th fret.  Sounds like he's doubling back (maybe that's the downbeat (whatever that means)

I'm not going to try and figure out the timing... I'm not that good... either I get it or I don't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jJpxBcMhQg

Sep 19, 2019 - 1:55:24 PM
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5116 posts since 9/16/2004

quote:
Originally posted by chuckv97
quote:
Originally posted by nitehawk0z

I find the Scruggs book tab to have many errors on Sally Ann, I've had to figure out my own way. Anyone determine the same thing?


Hi nitehawk,,, the old book or the revised one?  I find both had some errors,, but the revised one has the annoying “ghost slides” , as I like to call’em.  I haven’t checked the whole tab for Sally Ann against Earl’s recording on “Foggy Mountain Banjo”.  The first few measures look ok to me.


Is there any right way? 

When I play it, I play it to the words, "ev...er see a crawdad, Sal...ly Ann"  "I'm a goin' to marry you, Sal...ly Ann" 

I'm no virtuoso, but either it rolls off the fingers in a danceable / singable rhythm or it doesn't 

Sep 19, 2019 - 2:09:02 PM

5116 posts since 9/16/2004

quote:
Originally posted by mander

Sallys are never simple. Why should we be? :-)


Never simple, but always confusing

Sep 19, 2019 - 2:35:14 PM
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chuckv97

Canada

43391 posts since 10/5/2013

I recall a few weeks back on this august forum that folks were having some of the same issues with the other Sally - the venerable “Sally Good(w)in”. It wasn’t until someone posted the words and a vid of a performer singing it that they got the gist of the melody and where/how it came to be sin-ko-pay-tid on the banjer

Sep 19, 2019 - 3:03:10 PM
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6300 posts since 8/30/2004

Hi Frisco,
There is nothing odd about Earl's version of Sally Ann. It just starts with a pickup note tied to the next measure....Earl plays this with a very straight beat, nothing syncopated about it...Jack
Sally Ann    As played by Earl Scruggs

Originally posted by Frisco Fred

It's that crazy syncopation that alludes me. I think it's some kind of forward roll. I've heard allot of people play it wrong... and a few like Charley Cushman play it right, like in the attachment.  Where does the synco gap occur?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-H1oUMvJSk 


Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/19/2019 15:07:06

Sep 20, 2019 - 2:44:25 AM
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3200 posts since 7/12/2006

i think many make the same mistake with earls sally goodin. they mistake the two pick up notes for the the start of the first measure.(speaking from experience)
qu3ote:
Originally posted by Jack Baker
Hi Frisco,
There is nothing odd about Earl's version of Sally Ann. It just starts with a pickup note tied to the next measure....Earl plays this with a very straight beat, nothing syncopated about it...Jack
Sally Ann    As played by Earl Scruggs

Originally posted by Frisco Fred

It's that crazy syncopation that alludes me. I think it's some kind of forward roll. I've heard allot of people play it wrong... and a few like Charley Cushman play it right, like in the attachment.  Where does the synco gap occur?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-H1oUMvJSk 


 


Sep 20, 2019 - 10:47:02 AM
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6300 posts since 8/30/2004

Here's Earl's Sally Goodwin. Don't be fooled by where the melody starts. It starts on the 1st beat of the 2nd measure...
Sally Goodwin    Earl's version

Originally posted by Jack Baker
Hi Frisco,
There is nothing odd about Earl's version of Sally Ann. It just starts with a pickup note tied to the next measure....Earl plays this with a very straight beat, nothing syncopated about it...Jack
Sally Ann    As played by Earl Scruggs

Originally posted by Frisco Fred

It's that crazy syncopation that alludes me. I think it's some kind of forward roll. I've heard allot of people play it wrong... and a few like Charley Cushman play it right, like in the attachment.  Where does the synco gap occur?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-H1oUMvJSk 


 


Edited by - Jack Baker on 09/20/2019 10:47:39

Sep 22, 2019 - 1:58:41 PM

3141 posts since 12/6/2009

this will probably help a lot of people; youtube.com/watch?v=s3u_T3f2vMk
but seriously, I wouldn't try to copy anyone exactly....heck they don't even copy themselves half the time

Sep 30, 2019 - 12:01:25 PM
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112 posts since 11/3/2011

quote:
Originally posted by nitehawk0z

I find the Scruggs book tab to have many errors on Sally Ann, I've had to figure out my own way. Anyone determine the same thing?


Years ago, I discovered many mistakes in the book also.  I just don't ever read tab, except to find a certain lick or roll that I heard some where.   Playing by ear so much easier IMO.

Sep 30, 2019 - 1:03:33 PM

conic

UK

559 posts since 2/15/2014

I got earls second edition book and was gonna learn sally ann next, i dont know what the errors are but if i learn it note for note will it sound like sally ann and pickup the syncopation?

WoW, that guy called jim mills will be a good picker one day , hehehe

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