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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: The recurring 5th string problem


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/78812

Dannythemanny - Posted - 03/29/2007:  16:10:21


OK.

So, I've been playing a lot of 'White country blues' lately. It's such great music to play with string bands. Tunes like Deep Ellum Blues and If the River was Whiskey sound great clawhammer style.

As I'm getting further into this stuff, I'm getting further into jazz/blues, which has much more complex chord patterns than what I'm used to. I'm guessing this is the advantage of a 4 string banjo. But I want to play 5-string still and just adapt it.

The biggest problem with playing these tunes in a frailing style is the frequent use of chord progressions involving one of the following:

- The III chord with a major 3rd instead of the minor 3rd.

- The VI chord with a major 3rd instead of the minor 3rd.

In both cases, the 5th string will disagree massively with those chords. So, for instance, you'll be playing in G, and go to E MAJOR (not Em like 'normal'), meaning you've got E-G#-B on the 4 strings, and a very dissonant G on the 5th string.

I'm pretty sure I've thought of the only practical solutions to this problem, but I'm not satisfied. So far, I've been either skipping the fifth string altogether, but this means there's no "-ty" to the "bum-dit," or I'll play the chord up the neck, allowing me to fret the 5th string where necessary. This sounds weird, because generally I'll be playing open chords, and jumping up the neck every time I get to the E sounds weak. I've considered retuning the 5th string to something that could agree with all the chords of the song, but haven't explored that too far yet.

Anyone else had this problem? Any advice?

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/29/2007:  17:39:59


I would go with the re-tuning. IF you wish to go low you could go fro a D or even an E. B might be too high without a capo.
This is a problem I usually don't run into as I keep my chords light to non-existant and tend to play repeating riffs in blues. My favourite actual tuning for blues is Double C which uses an "A" on the 5th string. The problem is most of my friends play most of thier blues in "G". I've been fuddling around with a 4 string lately and might start taking it to jams soon.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

Sultans of Claw - Posted - 03/29/2007:  22:19:38


[This is a problem I usually don't run into as I keep my chords light to non-existant and tend to play repeating riffs in blues.]

Makes me feel better about my own, instinctive, novice's approach to a new instrument. I feel much more at home playing partial chords with a driving, repetitious beat and mere hints of melody.

Lee Callicutt

scawa - Posted - 03/29/2007:  23:31:20


Check out www.musicmoose.org and their banjo lessons.
As a sample of some of the jazz and blues stuff here are
a couple of the people improvising and jamming.

Ryan Cavanaugh
http://www.musicmoose.org/content/view/306/32/

does some pretty amazing jazz stuff here in regualr G tuning


David Cavage does some cool jazz and bluegrass stuff here.

http://www.musicmoose.org/content/view/20/32/

Both these cover the scales and music theory, chords in their
other lessons....

I'm a clawhammer person, but the left hand of three finger is valid and I'm finding many of the things you can do in
three finger, you can adapt to clawhammer. The bum-ditty might not work all the time, but drop thumb and sometimes just leaving the 5th string alone takes care of that problem.

Hope this helps.


Edited by - scawa on 03/29/2007 23:33:15

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/30/2007:  05:14:04


quote:
Originally posted by Dannythemanny

OK.

So, I've been playing a lot of 'White country blues' lately. It's such great music to play with string bands. Tunes like Deep Ellum Blues and If the River was Whiskey sound great clawhammer style.

As I'm getting further into this stuff, I'm getting further into jazz/blues, which has much more complex chord patterns than what I'm used to. I'm guessing this is the advantage of a 4 string banjo. But I want to play 5-string still and just adapt it.






You're re-traveling an old road. This is why the plectrum banjo evolved at the end of the 19th century. The fifth-string began to get in the way,
and players started removing the string altogether. Next the instrument makers started making banjos with the same scale as a five-string but no fifth-string/peg. These 4 string plectrum banjos were tuned CGBD.

The 5th-string certainly gives the 5-string banjo its unique sound, but I have always thought the driving rhythm is the product of accenting the
1,2,3,4 beats which the 5th string does not fall on. The fifth-string falls on the second half of those beats- in other words on the & in 1&2&3&4&.

The WoodChuck's tuning advice is good. If you are going to use the fifth-string, keeping it going throughout would make for a more consistent texture. My only point is that in the longrun, you can have rhythm without the fifth-string,

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

maxmax - Posted - 03/30/2007:  05:30:02


I'm not suggesting anything here, just thinking out loud (oh you know what I mean). It seems like the three finger folks, especially the melodic orientated ones, play all kinds of music progressions all out of standard gDGBD tuning. Are we perhaps relying to much on finding that certain tuning for every different occasion?

Cisco - Posted - 03/30/2007:  08:27:24


Maybe if you tune the fifth string to the third of whatever key you are in it would not get in the way of those other chords. For example if you are playing in key of G, tune the fifth string to 'B".

flatfoot - Posted - 03/30/2007:  09:46:09


.

>>>...I'm getting further into jazz/blues, which has much more complex chord patterns than what I'm used to. I'm guessing this is the advantage of a 4 string banjo. But I want to play 5-string still and just adapt it...>>>

There is certainly a limit to how far you can go into jazz. If there is only an occasional II or III chord, you just stay off the fifth string during these few bars. As you get into jazz standards you will have to be fully chromatic. C or G tuning can work, but having a drone on the fifth string will not.

Don't let this stop you. It just means that old fashione clawhammer technique wont work. There are plenty of other techniques that will work.

.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I thought my neighbors liked the sound
Until, one rosy dawn,
I saw a sign that said "For Sale"
On ev'ry neighbor's lawn.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 03/30/2007:  09:57:02


What percentage of your time is spent playing around that G#?

I mean, if the Emaj occurs infrequently, give the 5th string a skip, damp it or go to a double thumb. Missing the "-ty" can provide interesting space. Remember: the tune is as much about the silence as the noise.

If the Emaj occurs often, you might think about retuning...but then you have to deal with restructuring the rest of the chords.

Other things to try: restructure your playing to reduce the "open chord" vs "closed chord" jumps. If you're picking up that Emaj at the 6th fret (D position) or the 9th fret barre, choose your other chords physically closer to it (such as the G at the 5th fret, etc.). Walking your chordal way up and down the neck is always a good thing.

"If banjos needed tone rings, S.S. Stewart would have built 'em that way."

===Marc

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