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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Irish tunes using clawhammer technique?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/78704

Alan Butterfield - Posted - 03/28/2007:  12:52:27


Like many (most?) others here, I enjoy all kinds of music, one of which, and my current favorite, is Irish traditional. I have some friends that like to play this type of music - on more traditional irish instruments - and I'd like to join in the fun . I've worked up some clawhammer arrangements of some of the more well-known jigs, hornpipes and reels, and can keep up with the few I know.

I've come across two problems, and was wondering what others did, or would recommend:

1. Tunings - most irish tunes are in one or more modes in D (Dbl D tuning), G (G tuning), A (G capo 2 or sawmill capo 2), E minor/dorian (G tuning works ok). Figuring out the proper tuning isn't the issue, it's minimizing the re-tuning between tunes, or having to play "cross tuning" when keys change within sets. What to do?

2. Fingerings aren't often intuitive. Playing descending melodies is easy enough (drop thumb), but ascending lines require "pre-planning" - do I alternate string hammer/pull off, fret the 5th string, etc.? It makes it difficult to "learn on the fly".

Has anyone tried playing clawhammer at irish sessions?

Should I just give up and play tenor (for irish)?



bnjomn - Posted - 03/28/2007:  14:03:21


Hi Alan,

For what it's worth, I feel that although Irish tunes can be played in clawhammer style on the 5-string banjo, it will be extremely difficult to capture the feel and flow of Irish fiddling and flute playing. The tenor banjo is a far better choice and will also make key changes within a medley much easier.

Cheers,

Len

"A man must love a thing very much if he not only practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practices it without any hope of doing it well."

G. K. Chesterton


Edited by - bnjomn on 03/28/2007 14:14:47

vrteach - Posted - 03/28/2007:  14:07:10


There was a discussion of jigs here a while back at:

http://www.banjohangout.org/forum/t...PIC_ID=66749

For me, John_D's response was particularly enlightening. As he describes his process--well, it certainly does make it difficult to "learn on the fly".

On fingerings, I remember that Ken Perlman says that he applies the idea of fingering shapes (not chord shapes) following the lead of Bill Keith. As I understood what Perlman was saying, he worked out re-occuring finger positions to allow ascending & descending melodies to move across the fingerboard, rather than up and down. Zepp has a short video example on his web site of doing the same portion of a tune (not Irish) up&down and across the fingerboard.

Then again, there is always the frailing banjo fall-back of skeletonizing the tune. Playing the important (or easy to obtain) notes, not doing note-for-note what the penny whistle is doing. This is not a bad fall-back at all. It can add emphasis.

Then again, again. Tenors are nice.

Hey, I'd like to hear some of your clawhammer arrangements. I'm gradually trying to work out some also.


Erich
-------
http://vrteach.freepgs.com/banjo/

ndlxs - Posted - 03/28/2007:  15:10:21


Irish Polkas work really well without too many changes on clawhammer banjo; Ballydesmonds Polkas (3, Red Clay Ramblers do it); 3 Polkas that Planxty does (Dennis Murphys/42 pound cheque and 1 other), Ger the Rigger/Bill Sullivans work well too.

I also play Nancy's Whiskey, a song. I have worked out my own arrangement of the Foggy Dew, the rebel song as well.

I personally agree with the others who say most jigs and reels are a shadow of themselves in clawhammer. Ken Perlman pulls it off fairly convincingly, though, but his playing is technically brilliant but no the most passionate.

I also feel that the bluegrass who do irish music with fingerpicks (Bela Fleck does a couple, Tony Furtado, at least 2 others have books out there) sound pretty good as well.

Andy Alexis
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"
Buy my CDs:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/pineycreek
and
http://www.offtocalifornia.com

Feo - Posted - 03/28/2007:  15:38:37


I play Irish music on 5-string banjo ...sort of my own style, only partly using clawhammer ... I played this year's St.Paddy's Day gig but had to use two 5-string banjos , tuned differently...and still picked up harmonicas and tin whistles because of the rapid key changes ..... the typical Irish session would be a re-tuning nighmare on one 5-string banjo .... and if you did typical pickless openback clawhammer you might not even be heard , with the accordians blasting away .... I'd use a loud tenor banjo to cut through the mustard at a typical Irish session , if you wanted to be heard at one of these sessions....Then save the 5-string for home enjoyment, gatherings with friends willing to stay in one key a long time, recording sessions, etc... any and all kinds of music sounds cool on old timey banjo :-)

Alan Butterfield - Posted - 03/28/2007:  16:12:06


Thanks for the well-thought-out opinions guys - It's great to have this much feedback so quickly!

Andy - I love the Planxty polkas you mentioned. Those are some of the first irish tunes I've tried clawhammer style. I think they work pretty well - maybe that's because they're all in D?

Erich - thanks for the link on jigs. I just spent 30 minutes listening to John D's brilliant recordings, and I'm now convinced that clawhammer can effectively render the lilt of irish music; but after reading his post on how he arranges jigs, I'm also convinced that you may have to sacrifice some of what Ken Perlman calls compensation techniques in order to achieve that.

I've also heard (and seen) Dr. Zepp play jigs and reels , and I think his versions capture the flow/feeling of irish music (when he intends them too). They don't appear to be too difficult for him, but for the rest of us mortals, I don't know.

The problem that I struggle with more is my first question from the original post: How to handle tunings? Is there an optimal approach - or a compromise, if you will - to working out irish tunes that may be medleyed with tunes in a different key? I think aDADE has the best potential as a compromise tuning. It works great for D tunes, probably for A tunes, and maybe just retune the 5th to "g" for G tunes? I'm looking for the least amount of re-tuning and most flexibility to play in multiple keys.

Maybe I should try the tenor if I want to play at sessions. I have an old Vega tenor (that could use some modern tuners...) that I mess around on from time to time...

Steve Donnelly - Posted - 03/28/2007:  16:44:40


If someone hasn't already mentioned it, there's some good Irish clawhammer in Ken Perlman's book, Melodic Clawhammer Banjo.

RCCOOK - Posted - 03/28/2007:  18:42:23


In Mel Bay's Clawhammer Banjo solos by Alec Slater there are 6-8 Irish tunes and Irish style tunes.......Rod

Even the blind squirrel finds an occasional nut, I found a banjo!!!

ndlxs - Posted - 03/28/2007:  18:56:40


I forgot about the Alec Slater book; it has a lot of good pieces in it.

Great arrangement of Jenny Picking Cockles; played in Dminor out of sawmill, uncapoed.

He had a web site for a while; anybody actually know him?

Andy Alexis
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"
Buy my CDs:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/pineycreek
and
http://www.offtocalifornia.com

tom clunie - Posted - 03/29/2007:  00:44:56


While some Irish tunes can be done clawhammer, I think for the most part it is a pretty masochistic proposition. Even the "experts" who pull it off usually don't sound all that great. Usually you hear them doing a solo at their own pace rather than up to session speed. I have a tenor but have it tuned DADA. I wrote a piece here on BH entitled "advantages of DADA tuning," if it is still acessible, that you might want to look up. Some good comments from the above contributors - heed! TC

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/29/2007:  01:28:58


If you haven't gone to John D's sound page you should. I think he does Irish clawhammer about as well as it can be done--certainly I prefer his playing to any others I've heard. Though I've heard him in person and watched him play, I still don't really know how he does it. His clawhammer guitar playing of Irish tunes is also wonderful.

Bill

Richard - Posted - 03/29/2007:  09:06:16


I agree with the other comments - if you really want to sound irish, use tenor. If you know a bit of mandolin, you're pretty much there.

I find that i will play a sketch of the melody in the appropriate tuning, and if the key changes then i just vamp chords or do some rolls.

In fact, because i know i can't sound like a tenor player i will even through in some very OT sounding slides and stuff to let people know that i'm not trying to replicate the tenor.

Richard

"There is nothing whatsoever that does not become easier with acquaintance" - Santideva

see my band UPDATED and IMPROVED SITE ! http://www.geocities.com/bottleneck...atitude.html


Edited by - Richard on 03/29/2007 09:17:39

ndlxs - Posted - 03/29/2007:  09:16:03


Agreed about John D's playing..very tuneful and rhythmic.

Andy Alexis
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"
Buy my CDs:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/pineycreek
and
http://www.offtocalifornia.com

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