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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/78448
twelvefret - Posted - 03/24/2007: 23:08:35
I had never tried this before. It is an easy change, but am not sure that it is necessary. What tunes do some of you do with this tunging? I worked out a little Warfaring Stranger today. Is this more for clawhammer than fingerstyle.
Thanks for the replies!!
chuck
Twelvefret <><
"Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make something simple." Pete Seeger
" I 'm happier than a tornado in a trailer park" from the movie, "Cars"
Kole - Posted - 03/24/2007: 23:45:45
Frosty Morning
Cluck Old Hen
Lonesome John
Ducks on the Pond
Pretty Little Dog
Theres alot more tunes. These are some of my favorites. I really enjoy playing in Gmodal tuning.
Flesher Tarantella
Cedar Mountain Banjos
pastorharry - Posted - 03/24/2007: 23:51:46
I use it for Little Sadie, The Cucoo,June Apple (sometimes),Sally in the garden,Hollis Brown,Pastures of plenty,Poor wayfaring stranger,Johnson town. That's all I can think of at the moment, I'm sure there's many others too. God bless, PH
Isaiah 38:20 -played on banjo,guitar,dulcimer
Edited by - pastorharry on 03/24/2007 23:53:22
canerods - Posted - 03/25/2007: 00:00:52
I've been kinda stuck on sawmill tuning lately... I love it. Also add: Pretty Polly, Shady Grove, Black Nag.
"A gentleman is someone who knows how to play the banjo, but chooses not to." Mark Twain
brokenstrings - Posted - 03/25/2007: 00:37:25
It has a melancholy sound you don't get with other tunings.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
rendesvous1840 - Posted - 03/25/2007: 01:15:18
It's also good for Pretty Polly. I got in with some bluegrassers once, and found it a good way to play in the key of F. Then when they went to G, all I had to do was capo. You can still play most of the D songs,too. It's not quite a universal tuning, but if you get with a crowd that keeps changing keys from D to G, you can play along easier without so much re-tuning. I found this one day when I had to think fast to keep up. Chords are in between the double C and open G fingerings. Paul
rendesvous1840
"As I see it, every newborn should be issued a banjo." .....Linus
Edited by - rendesvous1840 on 03/25/2007 01:17:29
SteveK - Posted - 03/25/2007: 07:34:00
Apart from tunes already mentioned, Elzick's Farewell, The Falls of Richmond, Greasy Coat and Boyne Water (from Frank George) are some of my favourites. If you are interested in accompaniment you can play chords associated with several keys if you put a capo on the 2nd fret. G, A, Amodal, D and Emodal are all accesible as is C-although the F chord is a little weird.
chip arnold - Posted - 03/25/2007: 08:35:40
Our friends the Reed Island Rounders have upwards of 70 "A modal" tunes that they play. Diane Jones plays all of them out of sawmill tuning on the banjo. They've just released their new cd by the way and anyone who loves OT music should run out and buy it http://www.reedisland.com/RIR/rounders.htm
Here in N. Ga. I first learned sawmill as "Frankie and Jonny" tuning. There weren't a lot of modal tunes played in this area but the tuning was used for G and F quite a lot.
Twelvefret said: "It is an easy change, but am not sure that it is necessary."
Well it's not necessary to retune at all for any key if you don't want to. But as brokenstrings said, it has a meloncholy sound of it's own. The various tunings provide open string drones as well as allow your fingers to reach notes that would otherwise not be there. Many pages have been written on the why and wherefore of retuning the Old Time banjo for different tunes. It's popular in some circles to believe that the old timers just take/took the easy way out because they didn't have the skills required to play everything out of one tuning. 'Tain't so. Becoming at home with your instrument tuned a half dozen or more different ways is definately not the easy way out. :-)
Play with a plan
Chip
Don Borchelt - Posted - 03/25/2007: 09:04:11
Sawmill tuning is as important for what you don't hear, as it is for what you do. When you pick a five string, particularly in clawhammer style, often more than one string will tend to sound, either because you have given them a gentle brush, or they are ringing "in sympathy." When that harmonic action happens, the raised second string gives you the major fourth dissonance which is so characteristic of the sound of the tuning. But what is also very important is that the major third has been taken away.
Sawmill is most often used for tunes in Dorian mode. The Dorian scale in the key of G is G A Bb C D E F g. There is a common pentatonic scale in appalachian music which sounds like Dorian, G Bb C D F g. Another pentatonic scale related to Dorian goes like this: G A C D F g. Most of the tunes mentioned above, and lots more, follow one of these scales, more or less. One thing that they have in common is that there is no B, the major third interval, in the scale. By not having it as an open string in your tuning, you don't hear that unwanted note lurking in the background, either, making that major sound that you don't want. That's what gives Sawmill tuning that unique sound.
It is possible to pick tunes in Mixolydian mode (G A B C D E F g) in Sawmill, it is not typically done. June Apple, mentioned above, is generally considered a Mixolydian mode tune. I play my three finger style version of Red Haired Boy- another mixolydian tune- in Sawmill, actually. It is different. But most pickers do key of G Mixolydian tunes in open G.
While a few bluegrass pickers have discovered sawmill tuning, and use it occasionally for effect, it is still far more common among old-time pickers. I play a lot of old-time music, all three finger style, but I rarely use sawmill anymore. Most of the Dorian style tunes that I do I pick in a tuning which is sort of the open G version of double C, gDGAD. I play a lot of normal G major scale tunes in that tuning, too. That's where I play Frosty Morning, Shady Grove, Elzic's Farewell, Ducks on the Pond, Santa Anna's Retreat, Abe's Retreat, Falls of Richmond, Kitchen Girl, Twin Sisters, and other Dorian tunes. I also play June Apple, Campbell's Farewell to Red Gap, Sail Away Ladies, Cotton Eyed Joe, Tater Patch and a bunch of other Mixolydian and major sounding tunes there as well. If you are a finger style picker, I would suggest you give that tuning a try as well.
Sometimes, when you listen to the old timers, the difference between the B and the Bb note in their modal playing is not so obvious, and the true note being played or sung is often wandering around somewhere in between. I guess they didn't know that it was a sin to stray from the modern tempered chromatic scale. But that is really part of a different subject, modal ambiguity.
- Don Borchelt
"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."
- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died
Edited by - Don Borchelt on 03/25/2007 09:16:18
RCCOOK - Posted - 03/25/2007: 10:20:16
One of my favorites is Cumberland Gap. I also do Blackberry Blossom, The Coo-Coo, Sail Away Ladies, West Virginia Gals, Shady Grove and Pretty Polly to name a few. This is one of my favorite tunings, that and double C which just lowers the 4th string to C from sawmill........Rod
Even the blind squirrel finds an occasional nut, I found a banjo!!!
Edited by - RCCOOK on 03/25/2007 14:57:52
rendesvous1840 - Posted - 03/25/2007: 10:24:17
Another tune I play in Mt. Minor is' Les Brers In A Minor', by The Allman Bros. Band. (Some of my leanings are far from Old Time).
What Don says about the missing third really is meaningful. The third note of the scale defines the chord. A natural or major third gives you a major chord. A flatted or minor third gives a minor chord, in this case, Gm. Since no third is in the open chord, it has an ambiguous sound, neither major or minor.The missing B makes the key of F easier, becaus the Fscale uses Bflat. This is probably more music theory than is necessary to play banjo. But some of us are driven to understand why and how. "(Paint Pictures, Nosy, all talk is lies." Bob Dylan
rendesvous1840
"As I see it, every newborn should be issued a banjo." .....Linus
gailg64 - Posted - 03/25/2007: 13:22:30
Random thoughts on "sawmill""
Many old-time banjo players of the NC-VA border did/ do not appear to use the "sawmill" tuning either. Tunes such as June Apple & Cluck Old Hen are out of the standard G tuning (except the banjo is tuned up to A). It's interesting that in the string bands, the guitar players don't use the G chord in the A tuning (or the F in the G tuning).
Not using "sawmill" may be because many of the clawhammer-ers there played fretless banjos, on which you can get at those ambiguous notes that come & go as you go up or down the scale. Sawmill locks the banjo into that single mode --and in these tunes (June Apple, Cluck Old Hen, Old Bunch of Keys, Old Joe Clark, etc.) the scale can shift in the A and B parts of a tune, and according to whether you are going up or down the scale.
As Don mentions there's also a variation of the "sawmill" tuning that involves running the 2nd string up as in sawmill but then letting the 5th string down so as to play out of an F chord (or tuned up 2 frets to make a G chord) for thinigs like cumberland gap, are you in there rabbit?, cleveland's march, and frankie baker.
Gail
quote:
Originally posted by Don Borchelt
It is possible to pick tunes in Mixolydian mode (G A B C D E F g) in Sawmill, it is not typically done. June Apple, mentioned above, is generally considered a Mixolydian mode tune. I play my three finger style version of Red Haired Boy- another mixolydian tune- in Sawmill, actually. It is different. But most pickers do key of G Mixolydian tunes in open G.
- Don Borchelt
"Well, I know there's a lotta big preachers that know a lot more than I do
But it could be that the good Lord likes a little pickin' too."
- Tom T. Hall, from The Year That Clayton Delaney Died
twelvefret - Posted - 03/25/2007: 15:00:58
quote:
If you are a finger style picker, I would suggest you give that tuning a try as well.
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/25/2007: 16:33:21
I tend to go back and forth on A modal (Sawmill) tuning, but there are some tunes that are born for it. Two that haven't been mentioned so far are a couple favourites that show their Celtic roots more than most old time tunes.
"The Halting March" We got it from a Chieftains album about 25 years ago.
"Frosty Morning" (aka Cold, Frosty Morning) Not the Melvin Wine tune but a Scottish lament that came here with the highland clearances. I think we got from one of our favourite sources for A modal tunes - The Fuzzy Mountain String Band.
One of the things I like about Double D tuning (aDADE) is that it is very simple to change modes since there is no third in the tuning. So we do D Major, Mixolydian and Dorian in this one tuning. We can even do some tunes with E Dorian (Drowzy Maggie) sections.
This is also why I like Old G tuning (gDGDE) - First off, it is easy to get to from D - just drop the "A"s to "G"s and Bob's your uncle. But mostly because it again has no thirds so tunes can be in any one of the three most common old time modes - Major, Mixo, and Dorian. We even do a piece that is in G minor (not Dorian) in this tuning, although I will admit I prefer the sound of G minor tuning for that one. Another advantage is that there is no "capo drop" necessary - therefore those who tune to "A" normally, don't have to re-tune the entire banjo to get to "G".
The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
u k sandra - Posted - 03/25/2007: 17:07:34
Abe`s Retreat, Boating Up Sandy, Texas, Paddy On The Turnpike Falls Of Richmond, Shady Grove and a heap more. Instead of playing the first string open then doing the brush, play the second string fretted at the second fret, then brush. It sounds so much better.
s donnelly
jbalch - Posted - 03/25/2007: 18:40:37
I use this tuning a good bit....with a small twist: I like to tune the 5th string down to "F" (ie: F D G C D).
http://www.johnbalchmusic.com/
http://www.myspace.com/johnbalch
twelvefret - Posted - 03/25/2007: 19:14:31
Most of the Dorian style tunes that I do I pick in a tuning which is sort of the open G version of double C, gDGAD.
I am working through Frosty Morning (thanks OWC), Wayfairing Stranger, and an odd little variation on Old Joe Clark using Don Dorian tuning.
I like to tune the 5th string down to "F" (ie: F D G C D).
Thanks, John...more to experiance with. How will I ever get back to G tuning now??
Thanks again, everyone
chuck
Twelvefret <><
"Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make something simple." Pete Seeger
" I 'm happier than a tornado in a trailer park" from the movie, "Cars"
fiddlinandy - Posted - 03/26/2007: 23:27:05
I don't know about all the technical hoo-ha for this tuning but I sure do love to play Little Maggie in this tuning, like Fred Cockerham did in his recordings. I know otherwise it's not that common here in Surry County.
ndlxs - Posted - 03/27/2007: 09:56:18
I have a two-finger version of Wayfaring Stranger on one of my band web sites:
The tabledit file is:
http://www.pineycreekweasels.net/of...ayfaring.tef.
The 2 minute CDBaby preview of our recording is at:
http://cdbaby.com/mp3lofi/offtocalifornia-08.m3u.
Andy Alexis
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"
Buy my CDs:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/pineycreek
and
http://www.offtocalifornia.com
ndlxs - Posted - 03/27/2007: 09:58:10
John Balch,
Lee and Morgan Sexton use that tuning..with the fifth string down to F...on their two finger versions of Shady Grove and Little Maggie.
I have a PDF tab of Lee's Shady Grove on my web site at:
http://pineycreekweasels.net/andy/tunes/shadyg.pdf.
Andy Alexis
Sacramento, California
"The Pearl of the Central Valley"
Buy my CDs:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/pineycreek
and
http://www.offtocalifornia.com
raybob - Posted - 03/27/2007: 11:35:51
Like John, I also like what the 5th tuned down to F does to some of the 'modal' tunes. Clinch Mt. Backstep, even Cluck Old Hen take on a new flavor. It doesn't work for all 'modal' tunes however. I think I stumbled on this one day when I was playing Stoney Point.
Ray
http://www.nowhereradio.com/artists...4951&alid=-1
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