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flatfoot - Posted - 03/23/2007: 09:36:58
.
.........EDITED
The first step would be to figure out the tuning, which should not be too hard using the last chord.
.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I play 'bout sixteen hours a day
and practice two or three
Perhaps the other way around
Would be a good idee.
Edited by - flatfoot on 03/24/2007 11:56:21
ZEPP - Posted - 03/23/2007: 09:49:12
That's a two-finger, thumb lead (i.e., the thumb plays the melody on the beat) style in a capoed up "Mountain Minor" or "Sawmill" tuning: gDGCD.
Cheers,
ZEPP
* zepp@zeppmusic.com website: http://zeppmusic.com/ Skype us at zeppmusic *
vrteach - Posted - 03/23/2007: 10:44:14
Yup, I concur. It's 2-finger thumb lead. And mighty good, too (of course). Thanks for the link.
Here is a little bit of tab that shows 4 basic patterns used in 2FTL picking.
This is from Art Rosenbaum's out of print book published by Oak.
Edit: as I look at it again, it seems to me as though he is sometimes using the middle finger, too. However it isn't breaking the pattern of 2-finger picking. It's more like the frailers who use both their index & middle fingers for different strings. But, I'm not sure of this.
Erich
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http://vrteach.freepgs.com/banjo/
Edited by - vrteach on 03/23/2007 10:48:47
RCCOOK - Posted - 03/23/2007: 10:56:59
Yes sir, Thats Petes thumb lead style. Saw him once in concert in the 70's. He had a couple styles he used but thats not clawhammer, as I interpret it.........Rod
The Banjo is a Happy Instrument so play as you are able , enjoy it and stop worrying ...........have fun.
Edited by - RCCOOK on 03/23/2007 10:57:31
vrteach - Posted - 03/23/2007: 11:34:43
Oh, and you ask if it is difficult. No, it is pretty easy. Of course to do it as smoothly as Pete is....that doesn't come right away.
But, it is a simple technique and many tunes and song back-ups are easy to work out. The limitation, at least as I use the technique, is that the 1st string is largely used as a second drone (not for melody) and the melody is mostly played with the thumb only. this means that melody is played on the 4th, 3rd, and 2nd strings, and sometimes you have to go a long way up the neck on the 2nd string to get a note that you would normally play on the 1st. It is possible to switch the melody to the index finger on the 1st string, but to stay with the pattern it then switches that note to an off-beat. I've never quite managed it.
Ground Hog done in open G is a good first tune to try out the technique. Hmm, I see to remember that janolav had tabbed out a version of that in 2FTL.
Erich
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http://vrteach.freepgs.com/banjo/
Edited by - vrteach on 03/23/2007 11:37:16
janolov - Posted - 03/23/2007: 11:46:27
As already stated. it is double thumbing thumb lead. It is relatively simple. I have a few tabs demonstrating the technique (Cripple Creek, Ground Hog, Down The Road, Hot Corn Cold Corn) if somebody is interesting. I sometimes use both clawhammer and double-thumbing in a song to give some variation.
Janolov
desertmonk - Posted - 03/23/2007: 12:26:43
Thanks for all the quick replies!
"Get so familiar with the idiom that you can improvise within it" Pete Seeger
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/23/2007: 19:04:32
I can't hear the clip but am quite familiar with the style Pete uses on Pastures of Plenty. It is indeed thumb lead - the thing to listen for however is the "pinch" at the end of the pattern. This gives that same last beat (which is one of the "back beats") emphasis that makes the pattern seem to propel itself forward by almost falling over the measure bar. Dock Boggs did this a lot too, and Seeger might be using the same pattern here.
The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/23/2007: 22:15:02
The tune, btw, is "Pretty Polly." Woody Guthrie never hesitated to follow the traditional practice of writing new words to old tunes. Also points out that Pete Seeger remains an excellent traditional-style banjo player. You just don't see it too often.
Bill
chip arnold - Posted - 03/23/2007: 22:18:47
Woodchuck is right that the pinch is a hallmark of thumb lead 2-finger style but Pete's not using the pinch on this one. He's playing is a little more melodic but still has that relentless thumb lead drive. For some reason, I use the pinch a lot on tunes like this one or just about anything in the sawmill tuning. Just seems to fit.
Play with a plan
Chip
oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/23/2007: 23:23:34
Drat!
Now that you mention it - I might be thinking of Dock Boggs doing Pretty Polly. Aural memory tends to go even before the rest of the brain - but in my case it might be happening simultaneously.
The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html
brokenstrings - Posted - 03/24/2007: 01:15:33
Nothing to contribute, but I agree with Bill Rogers about Pete's playing.
Jessy
Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!
mwc9725e - Posted - 03/24/2007: 14:10:21
quote:
Originally posted by desertmonk
Is what pete is playing difficult? What technique is it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgjmzcDm7UY
"Get so familiar with the idiom that you can improvise within it" Pete Seeger
It's easy, even I can play it. Basically alternate between T and I. Use I on the first string, to start. After you get used to it, you can throw in some variations. The bonus is that by learning this one you kill 3 birds with one stone -- You'll be able to play "Pastures of Plenty", Pretty Polly", and "The Ballad of Hollis Brown". I play it in G minor tuning, but modal G's probably just as easy.
ponty - Posted - 03/24/2007: 23:29:21
In two finger thumb lead style, as in the clip, does the right index finger only pluck the 1st string, or is it common to pluck 2nd and 3rd??
Sola Scriptura, Sola Christo, Sola Fide
janolov - Posted - 03/25/2007: 04:26:15
In traditional two-finger style, as in the clip, usually only the first string is plucked by the index, but it is no restriction. I think Wade Mainer alternate the index finger strings a lot. I sometimes do so too - it is very similar to the bluegrass double-thumbing roll (T-I-T-M, where I use the index instead of the middle finger).
Janolov
m o))) - Posted - 03/25/2007: 17:31:12
Janolov,
if you have a few tabs of thumb lead stuff, that would be great. i am searching for tablature for this for quite some time now, but it seems i can't find a collection really dedicated to two-finger style, let alone something focusing only on thumb lead. if i find anything at all, it's only a few bits here and there in old-time surveys like the Rosenbaum books or the Mike Seeger dvds.
cheers,
Moritz
chip arnold - Posted - 03/25/2007: 18:49:02
Moritz, The tabs in Art Rosenbaum's Old Time Mountain Banjo book should be all you'll ever need unless you want tab for every new tune you learn. If you do, you're definately out of luck! There's not much available. But I know that Art provides enough explaination for you to understand how the method works. It's up to you to take it and apply it to new tunes. If you'll practice the tab that Erich posted above (from Art's book) you'll have all you need. I suggest working on using your thumb on at least strings 2, 3, 4, 5 and your index on 1, 2, 3. Work the melody line out with your thumb.
Erich may have something more but I think he pretty much recomends Art too.
Play with a plan
Chip
Edited by - chip arnold on 03/25/2007 18:49:42
chip arnold - Posted - 03/25/2007: 18:58:42
Sorry Moritz, I just looked at your homepage and I see that you already are working through Art's book. So my advice is still the same. Keep practicing! Get what you're already working on down good and smooth. Watch how the melody is brought out by your thumb and simply apply the principal to any new melody you come accross..
Play with a plan
Chip
m o))) - Posted - 03/26/2007: 10:36:35
Yes, i have both books by Art Rosenbaum and the Southern Banjo Styles dvds by Mike Seeger. The principle is clear and adapting seems fairly straight forward, as long as i know which tuning it is and there is not much ornamentation in it. To get results more close to actual recordings is troubling me, though. It seems my ears don't work that well. I don't easily "hear" the tuning, can't tune the thing by ear either. If i know the tuning, i can follow a simple melody along, at least if i slow the record down, until vocals and or other instruments chime in, then i'm totally lost. I fear, it is because i have some form of deafness that does not only affect volume, but also distorts frequencies differently. So i think having more tabs of things would be helpful for reference and comparison.
I started yesterday to try to work out Pretty Polly as Timothy Renner plays it on a Spectral Light & Moonshine Firefly Snakeoil Jamboree CD, when i thought it sounds fairly similar to the Pastures of Plenty Clip, and got stuck. Today i'll try again to get that youtube clip to slow down, we'll see...
mwc9725e - Posted - 03/26/2007: 12:00:07
quote:
Originally posted by m o)))
Yes, i have both books by Art Rosenbaum and the Southern Banjo Styles dvds by Mike Seeger. The principle is clear and adapting seems fairly straight forward, as long as i know which tuning it is and there is not much ornamentation in it. To get results more close to actual recordings is troubling me, though. It seems my ears don't work that well. I don't easily "hear" the tuning, can't tune the thing by ear either. If i know the tuning, i can follow a simple melody along, at least if i slow the record down, until vocals and or other instruments chime in, then i'm totally lost. I fear, it is because i have some form of deafness that does not only affect volume, but also distorts frequencies differently. So i think having more tabs of things would be helpful for reference and comparison.
I started yesterday to try to work out Pretty Polly as Timothy Renner plays it on a Spectral Light & Moonshine Firefly Snakeoil Jamboree CD, when i thought it sounds fairly similar to the Pastures of Plenty Clip, and got stuck. Today i'll try again to get that youtube clip to slow down, we'll see...
I recorded the clip through my mic, then slow it down using guiitar & drum trainer, which I downloaded from somewhere. It helped a lot. For one thing, I found that I can make 2-finger picking work a lot better in G modal tuning than I can in G minor.
I find that 2-finger picking's deceptive. The principals are simple enough, but making it sound good's not always as simple as it seems. I think you're right -- if you're in the wrong tuning, it just doesn't come out right. Could this be the reason for the abundance of tunings used on banjos? Maybe OT banjo playing actually started with something like 2-finger picking? I do remember when I was a kid back in the 30's and 40's many of the old guitar players used it. After all, conceptually it's about as natural and straightforward a way to play as anything could be -- much more "natural" than CH.
