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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: drop-thumb technique


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/78218

malarz - Posted - 03/22/2007:  06:14:07


I'm working at drop-thumb and wondering: do I pick the string with the edge of the thumb fingernail or with the fleshy part of the thumb? i can't seem to help catching my nail on the string so far, even after trimming the nail back.

Thanks to all.

Ken

uncledelphi - Posted - 03/22/2007:  07:07:33


I always use the fleshy part of my thumb, and have to keep my thumbnail trimmed way back. Whenever I accidentally catch the string with my thumbnail, an unpleasant, loud TWANG! is the result.

Austin "Breakbuster" Rogers

GIBSON MAFIA
Vega Partisan

janolov - Posted - 03/22/2007:  07:50:13


This has been up to discussion earlier. It had been discussed if the fleshy side or the nail shall hit the string. It has also been discuused if the thumb should be straight (parallel to the string) or crooked (cocked). If the thumb is crooked or cocked the top of the thumb with the top of the nail is hitting the string. If the thumb is straight it is usually the fleshy side of the thumb that hits the string. An there are about one thousand other alternatives.

The summary from theese discussion were that there are no right way and no wrong way. There are a lot of possibilities and all are right as long as it works and sounds good. it is of importance that the whole hand shall feel relaxed and comfortable, and that seems to vary from person to person.

I use a straight thumb and is hitting the string with the side of the thumb.

Janolov

51gmc - Posted - 03/22/2007:  09:39:39


quote:
Originally posted by uncledelphi

Whenever I accidentally catch the string with my thumbnail, an unpleasant, loud TWANG! is the result.


That's when you say "I met to do that".

Jerry

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/22/2007:  10:43:19


OTOH, unlike Austin, I make no attempt to use my thumbnail,when it's broken, I can tell my sound changes and I feel uncomfortable. I think I generally make first contact with the flesh, and then hit with the nail as the thumb slides off the string.

Bill

ZEPP - Posted - 03/22/2007:  17:39:36


My double thumbing teaching demo is at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpRy-3wqP4w

Cheers,
ZEPP


* zepp@zeppmusic.com website: http://zeppmusic.com/ Skype us at zeppmusic *

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/22/2007:  17:58:53



There is little agreement but I find that hitting with the side of the thumb produces a mushier sound - for me, and for my students. I recommend that the thumb be crooked enough to that it hits with more of a point (not necessarily the nail but at least the smaller area at the end of the thumb).
When I first took up the banjo I was a classical guitarist though - not a fingerpicker. Guitar fingerpickers tend to use the thumb as it's own damping device so they hit with a very broad side. In classical the thumb damps with a separate stroke - as it does in clawhammer.
Any video of Bob Carlin will show you the maximum a thumb can be crooked - and you will hear one of the best banjo players alive today. According to friends who met him and/or studied with thouse who did, Fred Cockerham kept his thumb as crooked as Bob Carlin and that is where Carlin got a lot of his technique

I've written before on double thumbing practice. THe main point is to practice teh actual move with the right hand alone. Don't just try to learn tunes. Sit down and "get" the motion by doing "Did-Dy Did-Dy Did-dy" over and over. I started people with the frail on the 2nd string and the thumb on the 5th. Remember to "cock" the thumb - bring it down solid and ready to snap - at every frail.
Later move the thumb to the 2nd string, then the 3rd, and even the 4th. Then move the finger to the 2nd etc.
If you damp all the strings this is a good way to watch television. Start slow, Perhaps with the History Channel and work your way up to HBO. Once you can...... wait a second - wrong lesson.
Start slow. Make sure the thumb plants solidly with every frail. The thumb then snaps forward, causing the hand to come back up (for every actiuon there is a reaction - banjo IS rocket science) ready for the next stroke.




The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

malarz - Posted - 03/23/2007:  06:04:45


OK, thanks to all. I think I got it--whatever works!

Clawdan - Posted - 03/23/2007:  09:51:17


quote:
Originally posted by malarz

OK, thanks to all. I think I got it--whatever works!



Yep, and to make matters more confusing, I don't so much "pick" the string as let the thumb drop just behind it and "catch" it as it springs my hand back up (ie. sounds on the upstroke or recovery of the hand).

Play nice,
Dan "Ain't no bum-diddy" Levenson
Old Time Music and Dance
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Author of Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch, A guide for the claw-less - a MelBay Publication
and Old Time Festival Tunes for Clawhammer Banjo (MelBay 20313) - 117 tunes tabbed for clawhammer banjo with standard notation and suggested chords.
Tune list at http://www.folknet.org/dan/FestTunesBJBook.htm

malarz - Posted - 03/23/2007:  10:24:15


I really should be working but...can the thumb be used too much in what is known as "old-time" music? Now that my fingers are comfortable with my thumb getting in on all the melody action I find that I'm using it on notes in tunes where before I would've hammered on or otherwise hit the note with another finger. Which means I'm playing less in the "bum-diddy" rhythmic style I began in and more in whatever it is I'm playing in.

This approach all began when i started learning tunes from the "Old-Time Festival Tunes" book so we all know who to blame!

Nide44 - Posted - 03/23/2007:  12:45:17


Yup, Dan says that..... "There ain't no Bum-diddy" in his sig and his workshops.
His technique is complete double thumb and he modifies it
to get the basic frail rythm. I took his DC workshop and found it
invaluable- especially the way he shows the thumb come down,
then up as a natural gravity motion - with a spring to it.
He also corrected the angle of my hand relative to paralell to the ground (and strings)
I'm still practicing my DT on 1st-2nd, 1st-5th alternates,
and am working on the 2-3, 2-5.
The 4th string I can't seem to get any accuracy with,
either as 3-4, 3-5 or 4-5 patterns.
Dunno why, but I guess it jes takes about a million practices
(and a lot of CSI re-runs, on cable TV.... owcb .)


Bob B
Yup ! Them's red 'braces'

wormpicker - Posted - 03/23/2007:  13:02:31


The dozen tunes in Dan's "Clawhammer Banjo from Scratch Book" will give you those millions of practices on all the strings, and you'll have tons of fun making beautiful music along the way.

Paul

Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin

Clawdan - Posted - 03/23/2007:  18:45:00


quote:
Originally posted by malarz

I really should be working but...can the thumb be used too much in what is known as "old-time" music? ....more in whatever it is I'm playing in.

This approach all began when i started learning tunes from the "Old-Time Festival Tunes" book so we all know who to blame!



Yep, I take the blame. owever it is always about choice. Too much, or not enough, who's to say? The old timers I met and heard played a bunch of drop others a bunch of double on the 5th, others little to no drop at all. Lots of good music, many choices.

My goal is for you to have the tools to make the choice. Glad you are on the path.

(ps, so are they "requiring" helmets for banjo players now? might be a good idea!)

Play nice,
Dan "Ain't no bum-diddy" Levenson
Old Time Music and Dance
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Author of Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch, A guide for the claw-less - a MelBay Publication
and Old Time Festival Tunes for Clawhammer Banjo (MelBay 20313) - 117 tunes tabbed for clawhammer banjo with standard notation and suggested chords.
Tune list at http://www.folknet.org/dan/FestTunesBJBook.htm


Edited by - Clawdan on 03/23/2007 18:46:23

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/23/2007:  18:59:34


There can never be too much thumb. Listen to Fred Cockerham or Kyle Creed - the thumb is almost always there.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

malarz - Posted - 03/24/2007:  08:18:29


so are they "requiring" helmets for banjo players now? might be a good idea!)


Oh yeah, especially when i start playing family and friends tend to throw things so need all the protection i can get! I'm hoping that holding up "Clawhammer Banjo from Scratch" will act as a talisman and ward off flying objects

mwc9725e - Posted - 03/24/2007:  11:59:58


quote:
Originally posted by malarz

I'm working at drop-thumb and wondering: do I pick the string with the edge of the thumb fingernail or with the fleshy part of the thumb? i can't seem to help catching my nail on the string so far, even after trimming the nail back.

Thanks to all.

Ken





There's a trick to filing the nails that helps this problem. They usually teach it to you when you take classical or flamenco guitar lessons. It isn't good enough just to make the nail shorter. That's necessary, but you need to bevel the underside of the nail -- the part that sticks out. Bevel it so that it slopes inward ( toward the tip of the thumb ) from the upper surface to the lower surface. I pay special attention to the outside part of the nail when I do this, because that's the part that usually catches the string. And be sure to "polish" the beveled part with VERY fine abrasive paper of some kind. That'll help keep from catching the string under your nail. You'll still need to develop your technique of striking the string with your thumb, but you'll be surprised at how much beveling & polishing will help.

Nide44 - Posted - 03/24/2007:  13:51:38


quote:
Originally posted by mwc9725e


There's a trick to filing the nails that helps this problem. And be sure to "polish" the beveled part with VERY fine abrasive paper of some kind. That'll help keep from catching the string under your nail. .


I find that keeping a nail shaper (looks like a nail-file but the abrasion is similar to fine sandpaper, rather than the diagonal or cross-hatch pattern), or an emory-paper board (becomes useless after 2 or 3 uses) close by, when playing or practicing is very helpful.
A coupla swipes can get rid of a burr that can happen while playing. Prevents snags, or tearing off a piece of fingernail when playing, too.

Bob B
Yup ! Them's red 'braces'

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 03/24/2007:  23:15:29


FWIW: Briggs states that: "The strings are touched by the ball of the thumb and the nail of the index finger".

Your thumb maybe formed differently than mine, but the area that comes in contact with the string is not close to the nail at all.
I don't think the thumb-nail should be used to sound the strings, but rather the fleshy part.

Good Luck.

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

japus - Posted - 03/26/2007:  10:21:14


I have found the more I practice drop thumb the more my finger memory is learning where to place my thumb and it becomes more accurate as I go along

Forever a beginner
Best wishes....Indiana Pa.

Bigwrench - Posted - 03/27/2007:  10:07:38


Zepp,
Thanks for the link to your videos. The way youshoot the video from the back sure makes it alot easier to see and hear whats going on at the same time !

ZEPP - Posted - 03/27/2007:  10:31:55


quote:
Originally posted by Bigwrench

Zepp,
Thanks for the link to your videos. The way youshoot the video from the back sure makes it alot easier to see and hear whats going on at the same time !


Glad they're helpful. I am all-too aware how little one can see of the clawhammer motions from the front! I find that using a clear-headed banjo during my lessons can be a big help, especially to beginners.

Cheers,
ZEPP




* zepp@zeppmusic.com website: http://zeppmusic.com/ Skype us at zeppmusic *

BadBrad - Posted - 03/27/2007:  15:35:11


I disagree that there is no wrong way to do it. Just watch me!

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