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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/77801
banjoburke - Posted - 03/16/2007: 23:42:58
I started playing banjo around christmas so I'm a beginner. Since starting, I've been playing without picks. I'm making significant progress, which is FANTASTIC (I'm completely addicted), but I know that I'm not playing at the volume I could be.
I'm not used to having picks on my fingers when fingerpicking a guitar and now that my rolls are becoming faster and more fluid, I feel like putting the picks on is throwing me back to the day I got the banjo. I put the picks on today and it literally felt like I couldn't play the banjo at all.
Do any of you experienced pickers go sans picks? If so, do you feel that you can't play with others because of low volume?
I'm looking forward to attending some "Bluegrass Jams" this summer, and I want to play properly.
In a nutshell: Do I NEED the picks?
-Scott
pdtek - Posted - 03/16/2007: 23:55:05
This is a subject that comes up on a regular basis. The answer is yes, you need the picks. Put them on and play with them always. Believe it or not, before you know it you will not remeber how you were able to play without them. Start now. The sooner you do, the easier they will be to get used to.
Dave B
Joanchek - Posted - 03/16/2007: 23:58:20
You will get used to them fast. Make sure they're comfy and fit well. Buy a handful (they're cheap) and experiment with different curves and angles. I like mine curled right around the top of my finger like a little helmet.
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Niffe - Posted - 03/17/2007: 06:34:18
You wil never, ever, regret that you started to play with picks. It's worth all the trouble!
banjogud - Posted - 03/17/2007: 09:01:03
Yup!...same thing happened to me. I was used to fingerpicking a nylon strung guitar, and when I took up banjo, couldn`t get used to the picks. Wasted a coupla years not wearin them. After along time of not playing at all I tried again, and I was determined to wear the picks....took a whole week to get used tio them,..They felt like wearin gloves,..I couldn`t feel the strings,..I was hitting the wrong strings,...etc....but, once I got used to them my playing abilities really took off. I could pick not only louder, but actually faster and cleaner. You will re-develope a "feel" for hitting the strings and it will all become "natural".
Don`t worry that it seems to be holding you back,...it is a temporary setback, and you will soon be progressing even faster than before.
Happy pickin Scott, and welcome to the "Hangout". 
Life is like a banjo,..ya never know whatcha gonna get. 
jrbanjo - Posted - 03/17/2007: 09:03:04
I play sans-picks alot when I'm just working up a tune or perhaps at night to keep the sound down in the house, but, to play real bluegrass / scruggs style banjo the picks are about as essential as the banjo itself. You need them for the sound and eventually for the speed too.
Unplugged - Posted - 03/17/2007: 11:40:40
All of the above and a reminder that it's not s'posed to be easy or comfortable along this journey. You just have to stay the course if you really want to do what you want to do.
Steve
Love to pick. Love to sing. Let's jam!
'88 Stelling Whitestar (archtop)
GoldTone OB 250
perltone - Posted - 03/17/2007: 22:22:45
Just another suggestion on this topic. I agree that picks are necessary if you are going to play bluegrass, particularly with other people. However, playing without picks is a skill that I believe can help your playing. Paul Hawthorne (rest his soul) had his own reasons for this. First, that the fingertips have the highest concentration of nerves in the body which helps develop your touch. Second, he felt that it is good to not get locked into one position. Personally, I played for 20+ years without ever playing pickless. 6 yrs ago, due to a combination of good fortune and an understanding spouse, I was lucky enough to purchase a pre-war Mastertone from Steve Huber. I picked it up @ IBMA where he did the final setup for me. After each tweak of the banjo, he would play it without picks to hear the sound. I was stunned at his tone, control and volume. I decided to spend 10-15 minutes each day playing without picks. Although it was difficult at first, I can now play about 80% as well without picks and I believe that the skill has helped with playing with picks.
OldManAP - Posted - 03/17/2007: 22:34:34
I've noticed a real problem for myself recently. I've been living in an apartment for the past three years, and going to school during the day means that most of my picking is done in the evening/nighttime hours, which precludes wearing picks. Well, I'm student teaching now, and the school I'm assigned to is on spring break for two weeks (I think I could really get used to this so-called "year-round" schedule, what with the two-week fall and spring breaks!), so I've been able to put the picks on during the day while all of my neighbors are at work or school.
After so much time playing without them, I'm finding it a bit awkward to play with picks again. Bottom line, if you can wear the picks, do so every time you pick up the instrument. Or at least find a way to divide your time as perltone mentioned. It's just probably not a good idea to NEVER wear the picks, as I'm now finding out!
Unplugged - Posted - 03/18/2007: 10:32:10
quote:
Originally posted by OldManAP
I've noticed a real problem for myself recently. I've been living in an apartment for the past three years, and going to school during the day means that most of my picking is done in the evening/nighttime hours, which precludes wearing picks. Well, I'm student teaching now, and the school I'm assigned to is on spring break for two weeks (I think I could really get used to this so-called "year-round" schedule, what with the two-week fall and spring breaks!), so I've been able to put the picks on during the day while all of my neighbors are at work or school.
Wayne in NJ - Posted - 03/19/2007: 07:59:56
Just do it! ;^)
(Put on picks, that is)!
If you plan on going to jams, (do that too, ASAP), you'll want to , at least, be able to hear yourself! (If you're like me, you'll be hiding in a corner at a jam session, but you need to start somewhere)!
Wayne in NJ
Try 'Grime' the ready made shortening that spreads just like lard!!
(A B&R Quality Product)
DelusionsOBanjer - Posted - 03/19/2007: 10:22:21
Another minor point--the type of picks you use makes a difference. I had bought some solid Dunlop picks at Banjo.com that I was using--kind of thick metal picks--but I left them at a friend's house after a jam. I went to a music store and bought some thin cheapies and the reduction in tone as a result is really noticeable. If you don't have a good bluegrass-focused music store in your area you might want to go to a banjo.com or Janet Davis type of online outfit and order some higher-quality picks. The thin cheapies won't do, at least for me....
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"Hell, how 'bout a hand for absolutely no reason whatsoever..."
--John Hartford
Paul Bock - Posted - 03/19/2007: 10:53:03
From 1956 until I quit in the late 1980s due to a right hand injury I always used picks. When I tried to start again in the late 1990s I had so much trouble with my fingers that I began playing the banjo & banjola bare-fingered because I found it much easier. I was doing folk, classical & ragtime and using an openback (tubaphone) banjo and it sounded good played without picks.
While it helped me get my fingers back into a bit of coordinated shape it really did nothing for my Bluegrass skills until I started back using picks in 2005. this was *very* difficult for a while but now it's second nature again.
The problem I have found is that there is a definite difference in "feel" between "with" and "without," so while I may play Bluegrass pickless just to EXPERIMENT with or dissect a new roll pattern or other technique, I always put the picks on when I actually start PRACTICING anything Bluegrass (or anything played in a Bluegrass style) even if I'm starting off playing it very slow. I need the "feel" of the picks to get my fingers used to how each song actually "feels" as it's being played. I guess that's part of my own muscle memorization process.
But I still play ragtime, classical, etc., without picks because there I'm after a different sound.
Paul Bock
Hamilton, VA
http://hometown.aol.com/getlostcorn...e/index.html
Tinker less, practice more.
Rollingwolf - Posted - 03/19/2007: 12:34:30
It's like asking if a fiddler needs to use a bow. It's just part of the instrument.
Music can be made withou picks, but it won't be bluegrass. I'd say volume aside, you won'te be able to play accurately up to speed without picks.
banjy - Posted - 03/19/2007: 15:01:28
Use the picks, you won't regret it. Before you know it, you will wonder how ya played without them. :) Banjy
warpdrive - Posted - 03/19/2007: 15:47:30
hey banjoburke, as a x-road picker, i can tell you that actually picking without picks helped me improve my playing hears how: i guess about a year ago i was picking without picks one night, late, in my 2nd floor apartment. i noticed after a few minutes how clean and accurate, and fast my playing was, although the volume was deminished, (i knew it would return with the addition of picks) the thought hit me, why can't i achieve this with picks, i looked at my hand and fingers and notice how my finger tips were hitting the strings, i right away thought, if i could get my picks to fit as if they were as the curvature angle that my fingers were at that moment, i would have it. so i reshaped my fingerpicks accordingly, and went to work, and the gains in tone and volume, speed, and accuracy are the best i;ve had in my soon to be 33 years of banjo picking, and in short i owe it all to practiceing one night without picks. i was later in the year talking to jd crowe backstage at festivil we were working in dayton, and i told him of this revalation in my picking life, and he confirmed that the same had occured to him years before, and said it added years to his picking, not so much the playing without picks, put the wearing them as if the were your fingers, some people say its the way a steel guitar player wears their picks, i don't know about that, but i certainly don't see the harm in the experimenting now and then without picks, if nothing more than to see if your fingers are staying tight and close to the strings and sometimes i just like to hear it quite and natural. take all of this for what its worth, and to what it applies, good luck and god bless, warp
good picking
banjoburke - Posted - 03/19/2007: 15:56:25
I got some metal dunlop picks today. I was using plastic picks before, and they seem much harder to use. I'm going to play with picks everytime I pick up the banjo; it seems like its just all about getting used to the feel and sound of using them.
For some reason the fifth string seems much louder than the rest when I'm practicing. Will that fade away as I get used to the feel?
Thanks for all the advice!
-Scott
Edited by - banjoburke on 03/19/2007 16:03:43
DelusionsOBanjer - Posted - 03/19/2007: 16:06:30
Did you get a metal thumb pick? The usual approach is to use a plastic thumb pick for the 5th string for precisely the reason you mentioned.
So, just to be clear, you'd use the two metal Dunlop picks on the index and middle and a plastic one on the thumb. Details details details...
......................................................................................................
"Hell, how 'bout a hand for absolutely no reason whatsoever..."
--John Hartford
Edited by - DelusionsOBanjer on 03/19/2007 17:02:18
pdtek - Posted - 03/19/2007: 18:57:22
quote:
[i] I decided to spend 10-15 minutes each day playing without picks. Although it was difficult at first, I can now play about 80% as well without picks and I believe that the skill has helped with playing with picks.
banjoman13 - Posted - 03/19/2007: 20:47:23
I tried without the picks ONCE, but only once and realized that the picks really affected my volume and even my tone color. For me, the picks are an absolute necessity. Without them, I'd feel like (excuse the expression) a fish out of the water. 
Jim
pickin - Posted - 03/19/2007: 21:19:56
I said " to heck with these picks, stupid ole things" then i put them on for bout a hour..... i couldn't imagine not using them.
bruce allen - Posted - 03/19/2007: 22:55:45
gotta use picks,gettum so they are comfy and mark them so you know which finger they are for as you will fit them to each one
plunker - Posted - 03/19/2007: 23:07:52
You have probably read about "muscle memory" in regards to rolls and licks. IMHO it also applies to where each finger has to position itself to correctly hit the string. I feel that playing without picks disrupts the muscle memory that you have developed while playing with picks. Maybe that's why so many folks have problems using picks after bare finger picking--re-learning finger position WITH picks. My personal opinion is that bare finger picking after learning with picks only delays and provides a setback for the learning curve. Start with picks at the onset and avoid wasting valuable time that could be spent developing technique with picks.
BigD
OldManAP - Posted - 03/20/2007: 00:18:27
Plunker's muscle-memory analogy is a good one to keep in mind. As a classically-trained percussionist (and remember, we play anything you can hit, shake, or scrape), I've spent a LOT of time focusing on the marimba. The marimba is probably the percussion instrument that is most frequently used as a solo performance instrument. For those of you who don't know, a marimba could be thought of as a gigantic xylophone, about the size of an upright piano, with a range of 4-5 octaves.
Well, pianists (and stringed instrument players) have the advantage of being able to touch and feel their instrument. This feel is essential to being able to play the instrument without looking at it (and each hand). As a marimbist, I don't get that luxury, because I have several inches of the mallet handle between me and the keys. So, there's a different type of muscle memory involved in playing the marimba and in playing the piano (and I do play both), so I have to develop both types of muscle memory.
In much the same way, there is a very different type of muscle memory involved in playing the banjo with picks than there is in playing without picks. As I alluded to in my earlier post, it is very much a different thing to be able to feel the strings directly beneath your fingers than it is to feel the transfer of energy from finger to pick to string and back. Also is the issue of hand position, which many here have pointed out will change slightly dependent on whether you're wearing picks or not.
Bottom line, if you intend on playing bluegrass (or plenty of other styles), wear the picks always to develop the muscle memory needed to play effectively in that style. If you plan on playing "classically", shape your fingernails accordingly and always pick with your fingernails (and use appropriate gut or nylon strings as necessary...steel just doesn't feel the same). Or if you're like me and never perform publicly on the banjo, but simply use it as a musical tool or as an escape from the "real world", pick in the way that feels most comfortable to you... ;)
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But we can't get Aunt Bea's pickles back...they're scattered all the way from Oregon to Nova Scotia!
