dausburn53 - Posted - 03/02/2007:  22:54:48

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I have trouble remembering a song after I put the tab away. does anyone have any advice on what works memorizing a song?

twhite54 - Posted - 03/02/2007:  23:06:39

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if it's not still there after putting the tab up then it never was there in the first place...work on a couple of measures at a time until you have that down pat and then add a couple more...don't rush it at first...the more you put under your belt the faster subsequent material will be mastered...

"she'd her apron wrapped about her and i took her for a swan..."
that's my story and i'm stickin' to it...

"ya got time to breathe, ya got time fer music"...Briscoe Darling


ethel the wonder basset

wormpicker - Posted - 03/02/2007:  23:07:10

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1. Break it up into individual phrases that you can memorize on their own.
2. Play it about a bazillion times.
3. Repeat.

Paul

P.S. Welcome to the Banjo Hangout! You'll have fun and learn a lot here.

Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin

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Edited by - wormpicker on 03/02/2007 23:09:06

wrentree - Posted - 03/02/2007:  23:29:47

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Work on what you are comfortable with to start, usually about 4 measures. I do that and after a little bit, I go do something else to let it soak in. I have even worked on 4 measures of another song. Then I come back to it and find that my mind has subconsciously worked on it too, and I can remember more and play what I studied better. You can't do it all at one sitting!!! Your mind has to get a handle on it too, as well as your fingers.

Dad always told me"If you want to have friends, you have to be friendly." Harold

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/02/2007:  23:33:32

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Start with a simple tune that has some words - Cripple Creek, Cluck Old Hen, Chicken Reel, Ducks On The Millpond, Walking In The Parlour, Old Joe Clark, something short and fun and EASY.

It helps to use tunes with words so you know where the phrases are, but you'll quickly get the idea as you'll soon be able to hear phrases even in tunes without words. In general (unless you are into old French songs) a phrase and a line of words are the same. A Phrase is a musical sentence - whether it has words or not.

>>>>>> My old hen's a good old hen
>>>>>> Lays her eggs for the railroad men
That is 2 phrases - half of the first part of the tune

>>>>>> Sometimes eight and sometimes 10
>>>>>> That's enough for the railroad men
Four phrases gives you whole the first part - a paragraph

>>>>>> Cluck old hen cluck and sing
>>>>>> Ain't laid an egg since late last spring
>>>>>> Cluck old hen cluck and squall
>>>>>> Ain't laid an egg since way last fall
Four more phrases gives you the second part

A phrase is a musical sentence, a theme (the a or b part of a tune) is a paragraph. If you are having trouble on the sentence level, try cutting the sentence into smaller units

From "Cluck old hen, cluck and sing" take just -
>>>>>> "Cluck old hen"
and you have half a phrase. the rhythm is
Bum Bum Bum Did-dy. or
M - M - M - M T or
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & or
Cluck Old Heeeeeen

For tunes without words (and really for those with words too) Listen to the tune - not once, but put it on repeat and let it burn into your head for a while. Find the melody on your tab and mark it - I made little red dots for my students.
Play just the melody - leave out everything else.
Play it along with the mp3 (cd whatever) a few times. If you can't keep up, check for a slower version, or use slow down software, or just move on to memorizing.
Start with the first phrase and play the melody a few times from the tab. Now try it unsupported - run into a snag? Go ahead and look - it ain't cheating. Try again, and again until you have it.
When you think you are solid on it, go back to the tab and play the melody with all the various rhythm hits - still only the first phrase. After a few times through try it without the tab. If the whole thing seems to complex to memorize take a close look at those melody notes you marked in red - can you play just them and only the rhythm notes necessary for the classic "Did-Dy" sound?
When you can play it without referencing the tab and some basic rhythm go back and look for hammers and pulls, drop thumbs etc, then assemble them back together for the full first phrase.
That done you are ready to move on to phrase 2.
At first this will seem rather ted'jus - it is at first but things get easier fairly fast. It is my theory that knowing one tune helps you learn a couple more, similar tunes. Knowing ten tunes opens the doors to a hundred, and knowing a hundred opens the doors to the world.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

flatfoot - Posted - 03/02/2007:  23:43:47

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.

Practice backwards. Really.

Often when one is practicing one works on the first measures a great deal. The later measures dont get practiced as much. When you try to play from memory you get stopped after measure nine or twelve or so. This can be very frustrating.

Professionals do not begin at the beginning when they practice. Try practicing the LAST four bars, then the four bars before that. When you can play the ending real good, move to the last part of the first verse.

Often when you practice backwards in this way, the first four bars will seem to magically take care of themselves.

.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"I cannot talk to you right now
My break is coming 'round.
Kindly leave a message when
You hear the beeping sound."

u k sandra - Posted - 03/03/2007:  07:27:15

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Flatfoot`s right. Listen to the tune until you can hum it in your sleep, then start at the last bit.

s donnelly

tom clunie - Posted - 03/03/2007:  10:15:14

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Yep. Repitition is the "secret." One guy told me once he quit clawhammer because after learning a dozen tunes, he said by the time he learned a tune, he was totally sick of the tune. Incidently, he was one of about 2 to 3 dulcimer players IMHO who could actually play fiddle tunes without blowing the timing. Even people who are famous in the dulcimer world can't play fiddle tunes smoothly without the stacatto timing. He (Michael Rugg), could and can, but doesn't play too much these days. Different strokes (instruments) for different folks! You just gotta love that thar banjo enough to put up with your learning curve. My learning curve is pretty flat but folk's like Adam Hurt's is pretty steep, but I am sure he'll tell you he has some kind of curve too. If you love that banjo enough, you'll accept your curve and "claw on!" TC

MountainBanjo - Posted - 03/03/2007:  10:28:50

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Dont memorize the tab! Memorize the tune, as was said. Then start at the beginning. As soon as you can play a couple measures without looking at the tab, STOP LOOKING AT THE TAB for that portion! Then go on to the next portion. As soon as you can play the whole tune through, dont look at the tab again unless you run into a problem spot. NEVER play directly from reading the tab after you can do it without.

I think starting at the end makes it more difficult, because you probably cant hum the tune backwards. Its nice to know whats coming up ahead in the next part you are working on, and its much harder to think backwards than forwards, IMHO.

spiritwolf7 - Posted - 03/03/2007:  10:59:10

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quote:

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Originally posted by MountainBanjo

Dont memorize the tab! Memorize the tune...

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And therein lies a very big problem. At least it was for me. No matter what instructional material I picked up, absolutely none started off with a song with which I was familiar. I'm sure that helps account for the slow progress I've made. I guess that's just a price I pay for having grown up a big city boy. LOL, if the New Yorker I worked for in my first job out of college could hear me now... He was from NY City and always complained about how Chicago was a small hick town.

SpiritWolf

The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it. You might as well expect the rivers to run backwards as that any man who was born a free man should be contented when penned up and denied liberty to go where he pleases.

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce'
1830 - 1904

Nide44 - Posted - 03/03/2007:  11:05:06

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quote:

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Originally posted by dausburn53

I have trouble remembering a song after I put the tab away. does anyone have any advice on what works memorizing a song?

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I have trouble remembering the name of the song I learned yesterday.
Seriously, folks.........
...anyway, why do you want to remember a whole song in TAB?
TAB gets me started to see how a particular version or arrangement
makes it happen. I play thru it to get a general idea of the mood & style
(as well as the basics).
To get me started, I only play the melody notes. I avoid the embellishments.
I think that we'll all agree that TAB, unlike music written on musical staff for piano (or other instrument), is pretty much useless for timing, and unless you know the tune beforehand (at least a little) it isn't much of a help.
Ya gotta know what it is..... afore ya can wanna play it!
Once I decide to learn a tune and find a TAB for it (or mebbe a coupla different ones, for variety), I use the TAB as a guide, and if I find a phrase or lick or particular part that strikes me as really neat....
I memorize it, note-for-note.
Same if I'm trying to resove a drop thumb pattern that's tricky.
But most of the rest is just a suggestion of how to play it.
I usuallly let my head and fingers tell me how I want to play it, first.
Eyes closed, just working it out, to sound the way I like it.
Sometimes this will happen immediately and at other times (especially those difficult parts) it'll take a while to practice it so's it feels natural.
If it doesn't come out smooth and feeling good- it's not working.
If it doesn't feel good, I won't play it....(much).
But if I can remember the name of the tune, the key I can play it in,
and the first few bars - I usually can go from there
....but just rememberin' the name...that's the killer !

Bob B
Yup ! Them's red braces

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Edited by - Nide44 on 03/03/2007 11:12:51

scpaul - Posted - 03/03/2007:  11:05:45

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MountainBanjo has the right idea. The point is not to learn the tab, the point is to learn the tune. Like everyone has said listen to it, sing it, hum it, listen to it some more, listen to another version of it. Get it in your head.

Then and only then get out the tab. Maybe even get out a couple of different people's version of the tab to see different ways to play a particular section.

Tab is just a help to get you playing the tune. If you are going on a trip you might get out a map or go on Mapquest, but the goal is not to memorize the Mapquest instructions it is to get to your destination. In the case of playing your destination is playing the tune.

Fiurst learn the tune in your head, then figure out how to play it. Whether you use tab or muisical notation or ear, it's all the same. The tune is the goal, the learning method is how you get there.

Tarn - Posted - 03/05/2007:  21:24:26

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I try to take 4 measures at a time and I play them til I can without the tab, then I head on to the next 4. Once I can do that I just kind of repeat that the rest of the way. By the time I learn the tune I'm not really bored with it and it's time to put some influence in it. Everyone does what works best for them and we all have our ways that work. Pick a couple and try them out.

Rob

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/05/2007:  21:58:00

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Spiritwolf7
That's where the soundsheets and cds that come with the books are handy. It is also where having a cd collection of old time music comes in handy - only if you actually play the cds of course.
I think that even listening to old time tunes you are not working on has a good effect on your playing. Many tunes are very similar in phrasing so learning one tune has you halfway to learning a few more. It also helps to watch others play.
NYC has actually been a hotbed of OTM since long before I heard of it. I doubt there is an old time jam at the Eagle Tavern these days, but I used to go twice a month in the late 70s and play along as well as I could with old time tunes (I was a melodic player at the time) while watching others and hearing how they made the tunes work for their style. There probably is another regularly schedualled OT jam somewhere on Manhattan. Check publications like The Voice, The New Yorker (which is where I found out about the Eagle Tavern) or The Old Time Herald. Look for OT groups playing clubs too. The thing about Old Time is that there are going to be other old time musicians in the audience. Sometimes old time musicians are the entire audience.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

spiritwolf7 - Posted - 03/05/2007:  22:30:59

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I guess it must be nice to reside in NYC then. Before my banjo days I had connections in NC but not anymore. Nor do I have the means to journey there either. Here in East Central IN there isn't much.

SpiritWolf

The earth is the mother of all people, and all people should have equal rights upon it. You might as well expect the rivers to run backwards as that any man who was born a free man should be contented when penned up and denied liberty to go where he pleases.

Chief Joseph
Nez Perce'
1830 - 1904

wormpicker - Posted - 03/05/2007:  23:30:32

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quote:

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Originally posted by spiritwolf7

I guess it must be nice to reside in NYC then. Before my banjo days I had connections in NC but not anymore. Nor do I have the means to journey there either. Here in East Central IN there isn't much.

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Is Bloomington close enough? Another New Yorker, who I hear is a pretty decent clawhammer banjo player, recently moved there. His name is KEN PERLMAN. And I understand he may even have slots for lessons: http://www.kenperlman.com/#lessons

Paul

Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin

katshan - Posted - 03/06/2007:  13:06:24

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Wow - what you can learn from reading this Forum!!! Ken Perlman in Bloomington!!! I didn't know. I live in Nashville, IN - Bloomington is a stone's throw from here. I just might be making a phone call!! Thanks so much for posting this.

I don't know if Brad Leftwich gives any CH lessons, but he's known for Round Peak CH style and also lives in Bloomington . Brad does give OT fiddle workshops that I've attended.


Kathy

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/06/2007:  19:47:02

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Spiritwolf7
Sorry I mis-read yur post and thought you were in NYC. Sounds like if you are near bloomington you've got it made though - Perlman for melodic and Leftwich for Round Peak - even if you aren't near Bloomington it would be worth an occasional trip for lessons.
I used to do a 300 mile round trip to NYC every month to study flamenco - finding a good teacher was well worth the expense.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

ajbadger - Posted - 03/06/2007:  21:41:31

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dausburn53,

I think you got some pretty good advice from the group already so I won't add to techniques in memorizing tab. However, as a person who has memorized over 15 tunes in tablature, and failed to memorize 10 others, I can safely say that sometimes you might hit a tune that your mind just is not ready to hang on to.

I say this because there are some tabs that I can memorize in a matter of a few hours practice and others I have been working on for over a year. I used to think that some tabs are just more complicated than others, but that is not the case. I have surprized myself with how quickly I can pick up one complex piece and struggle forever on others.

Now I am not suggestiong that you give up on the piece you are trying to memorize. Stick with that and run through it each day. I will say, though, that after about two months of practice, try memorizing something new. Continue daily practice on the piece you find challenging, but go through it as a matter of making it smooth. Start learning the new piece. This technique works for me most of the time. Eventually, I find myself one day playing the challenging piece from memory. It just comes to me.

I add new pieices and build on the old ones every day by practicing them. Please note that at some point, you are going to start making the piece your own by changing what you memorized. However, as long as you like what you are playing, that is all right too.

Good luck.


Sincerely,

AJ

http://clawhammerbanjo.wordpress.com/
===============
"Reason is the slave of desire."

tntyz - Posted - 03/07/2007:  08:16:35

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I got my banjo about a year ago. I have a reasonably good memory, but memorizing banjo tunes, which generally were not familir to me, just didn't happen. Lately, I've been spending a bit of each practice session just picking around and not necessarily playing something. Just spending time getting familiar with which notes are on which string. That gave me the background to start finding the tunes that I had been practicing, at least those with a standard G tuning!

Tony

hyldemoer - Posted - 03/07/2007:  15:42:22

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One of the reasons I took up banjo was to see what a banjo player might be going through to accompany a fiddler. I haven't had much trouble learning tunes by tab or by ear if I already know the tune on the fiddle.

My fiddle teachers have all taught me tunes by ear, phrase by phrase. For difficult phrases, usually the fiddle class would just repeat that phrase over and over until it clicked into muscle memory.

Before ending the lesson the teacher plays the tune for us to record and listen to. I've gone as far as having my Ipod alarm clock wake me every morning with the tunes to help me take them up during early morning twilight sleep.

I take banjo class at the same school that I take fiddle class at and the protocol is pretty much the same there for banjo too except we've been handed banjo tab too before leaving the room.

I use the listening to the tune over and over plus learning it phrase by phrase and commitment to muscle memory approach when I teach myself tunes by tab on my own.

Fiddle tunes are pretty simple, a bit like nursery rhymes. There's a repeating theme, call and response sort of thing going on.
As long as you stay in the right key and maintain rhythm correctly, don't agonize. Variations seem to be very welcome as long as it makes sense to the dancers.

hyldemoer - Posted - 03/07/2007:  16:42:16

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One more thing that I think is worth mentioning, some of us think in words. If you know the lyrics to a tune it might be easier to memorize the melody.

If the tune comes to you without words, make some up.
If those made up lyrics are about your spouse and other family members they'll have more reason to look forward to your practicing long hours on your banjo.
If they hear the lyrics once, everytime you play the melody they'll think you're dedicating the tune to them.

Everyone likes a good song about themself.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/07/2007:  18:14:40

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hydelmoer
I like the suggestion of making up words for tunes. I tend to "adapt" stuff - sometimes from The Jefferson Airplane, but usually words to other old time tunes. If I can't remember the words I will even make them up --- As in make up the actual words
Rubble Frummble Cripple Creek
Rubble Frummble Froo
Rubble Frummble Cripple Creek
And Kalamazoo

Far far too much of my youth was wasted on Pogo Comics.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

hyldemoer - Posted - 03/08/2007:  13:31:03

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quote:

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Originally posted by oldwoodchuckb


Rubble Frummble Cripple Creek
Rubble Frummble Froo
Rubble Frummble Cripple Creek
And Kalamazoo

Far far too much of my youth was wasted on Pogo Comics.

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Your youth wasn't wasted.
I'll be stealing your lyrics when I teach Cripple Creek to my grand kids.
The tune's too good not to teach but I doubt the traditional lyrics would get much acceptance from my son-in-law's family.

tubaphonethumper - Posted - 03/10/2007:  19:12:24

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Hi,
I hate the word memorize. I like"Play by Heart" much better.
How I do it is this:
1. I tape myself playing the tune very sslowly as I read it off the page. I do it several times.
2.I listen to the tune
3. As I isiten I hum or whistle or sing it.
4. I go back to my banjo and let my fingers figure out what to do while I sing the tune aloud.
That's asll i do.
Good luc.
Edna Mae in sunny Pasco, wA

Forgive 'em today. Tormorrow one of you may have croaked.

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 03/10/2007:  19:39:55

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hyldemoer

Now I sees it in print, I gotta admit it do have a certain jenny say qua. Especially the "Rubble Frummble Froo" line. Too bad I done forgot to copyright it. Steal away.

The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html