nyartist - Posted - 02/23/2007:  15:35:38

---

After 5 years of Scruggs style I'm making a switch to clawhammer and only wish I had done it earlier. I found a teacher here in NYC who wants to get me to learn by ear, something I've never done before. I'm 62 and not thrilled about starting to learn by ear when I already know how to read tab really well. What I'm asking is:am I the only one out there who can't (or won't) play by ear?

I started with a Ken Perlman DVD and besides the one lesson with the instructor, that DVD was a great help. Now I'm waiting delivery of Cathy Fink's Singing with the Banjo because that's REALLY what I want to be doing.

So back to my initial inquiry: what about learning by ear vs tablature?

Vincent Banjogh

chip arnold - Posted - 02/23/2007:  15:51:16

---

The tab comes from someone else.
The ear comes from you.
Who's music do you want to play?

Really, tab is a wonderful tool although most folks don't think of it as an end in itself. But.......if you're happy........it can be an end in itself for you. I do think you'll find a whole new freedom with the music if you develop your ear.

Play with a plan
Chip

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/23/2007:  16:35:49

---

There is a lot to be said for learning by ear - but not everyone is going to be very good at it. Tablature and other written forms of music are designed to get around the problems of reproducing what you hear, because it is well known that the human ear is not very good at remembering things exactly (and is the cause of the folk process).
While I recommend ear training to anyone, I don't recommend that anyone who isn't already pretty good at it, dump tab and try to learn the banjo without written reference.
I learn everything by ear these days - but after I've been playing a piece a while I write out a tab so that I don't have to RE-learn it by ear should I forget it. Back when I was first learning the guitar, I would have gotten nowhere without my ever handy Nick Manoloff Method for the Spanish Guitar. I later used the Pete Seeger Book for banjo. Even when I when into flamenco guitar I tried to tab out some falsettas. My teacher claimed that I would hold myself back with the tab - he however grew up in Spain and heard this stuff from childhood. My experience was limited to "Sketches of Spain" and and seeing Carlos Montoya on the Tonight Show once. My next teacher had mimeo tab sheets and wrote out every falsetta he taught me - Guess which falsettas I was still playing 5 years later. Guess who I consider the good teacher?
Tab is a tool and a very useful tool. The problem is not learning a tune from tab, the problem is failing to get the tune off the tab and into your head. Take the time to be sure you are playing the tune right - it really really helps to have a copy to listen to also - use those soundsheets, or whatever they put in the books now. If there is no aural version of the tune go with something you have on a cd. I know that most of the people who post tabs and mention them on this forum also mention they have cds or even DVDs to go with them - use both.

Here is a method for either getting away from the tab of a tune or learning it by ear.

Pick a tune - Any tune - No Not Soldier's Joy, or Fisherman's Hornpipe. Put away those Cape Breton Reels too and pick a simple tune - Cripple Creek, Cluck Old Hen, Chicken Reel, Ducks On The Millpond, Walking In The Parlour, something short and fun and EASY! And no cheating - make it a tune you have heard but do not yet know.
Listen to the tune - not once, but put it on repeat and let it burn into your head for a while.

If you are using tab, find the melody on the tab and mark it - I make little red dots for my students. Play just the melody - leave out everything else. Play that along with the mp3 (cd whatever) a few times. If you can't keep up, check for a slower version, or use slow down software, or just move on to memorizing.
To play it by ear (or to memorize tab): Do the melody phrase by phrase, making sure you know the first before you move on to the next. It helps to use tunes with words so you know where the phrases are, but you'll quickly get the idea as you'll be able to hear phrases even in tunes without words. In general (unless you are into old French songs) a phrase and a line of words are the same. A Phrase is a musical sentence - whether it has words or not.
>>>>>> My old hen's a good old hen
>>>>>> Lays her eggs for the railroad men
That is 2 phrases - half of the first part of the tune
>>>>>> Sometimes eight and sometimes 10
>>>>>> That's enough for the railroad men
Four phrases gives you the first part or theme, or paragraph
>>>>>> Cluck old hen cluck and sing
>>>>>> Ain't laid an egg since late last spring
>>>>>> Cluck old hen cluck and squall
>>>>>> Ain't laid an egg since way last fall
Is the second part, or theme or paragraph
If you are having trouble on the sentence (phrase) level, try cutting the sentence into smaller units
>>>>>> Cluck old hen
is half a phrase. the rhythm is
Bum Bum Bum Did-dy. or
M - M - M - M T or
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & or
Cluck Old Heeeeeen
At first this will seem rather ted'jus - it is at first. Things get easier. It is my theory that knowing one tune helps you learn a couple more, similar tunes. Knowing ten tunes opens the doors to a hundred, and knowing a hundred opens the doors to the world.

There is a lot more I can say on the subject, but much of it depends on what you are looking for. You say your teacher wants you to start learning by ear - but don't say if this is simply the only way he teaches or because he thinks you are relying too heavily on tab and he'd like to wean you off the crutch. If it is the latter - I would be probably be trying to do the same - if it is the former, you know from my flamenco example I don't believe in ear learning only except for people who are already good at it. My wife's ears were always better than her hands so she has learned fiddle almost entirely by ear. Her ears however, were also always much better than mine, and until the last 20 or so years I have always used a combination of written and aural sources - including having my wife transcribe guitar from albums for me. I believe in using every tool available and there is no better tool than a person who can hear things I can't.



The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

bnjomn - Posted - 02/23/2007:  18:13:15

---

Why must it be an either/or situation. It would make sense to me, to take from tab what you find useful, but always let your ear be your guide.

Cheers,

Len

"A man must love a thing very much if he not only practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practices it without any hope of doing it well."

G. K. Chesterton

---

Edited by - bnjomn on 02/24/2007 12:01:39

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 02/23/2007:  18:47:08

---

Have you ever memorized a piece by using tablature and found that without trying you altered it to fit your style?

Tab is great - gets you started - and you can expand from there by watching, listening, asking questions - Lots of ways to learn - use all of them.

Judy

haiku - Posted - 02/23/2007:  20:14:23

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bnjomn

Why must it be an either/or situation. It would make sense to me, to take from tab what you find useful, but always let your ear be your guide.

---

I agree. Both have pros and cons.

WhenI first learned to play a bit of music, playing by ear looked as near as an alien ability to me. Little by little, with (just a bit of) work and lots of practice, it became natural.

What I think (just a point of view, no right or wrong):
When you start, tabs are great. The easiest way to start pickin', the easiest way to learn tunes.
But on the other hand, trusting tabs sometimes keep you away from 'makin' music: you're not just a jukebox, and you have (you might have ) to bring a piece of your own style into a tune you've learned. Beside, as soon as you play with others, you often have to put the exact transcription of a tab away to fit in.

Another point I have recently discovered: playing the guitar and the bass for 15 years or so now, I play a lot, if not always by ears.
Learning the banjo for less than a year, I tend to do the same: listening to a song, picking up the chords (via the guitar) and then the melody and trying to find a way to play it on the banjo.
It's working, it's a good way to me to learn/improve, but on the other hand it's preventing me to add more variety to my 'style', whereas ifever I would work more with tabs I would certainly discover some more ways to play a given songs. (ie I don't drop thumb a lot - if not never. So I always find a way to play a tune without drop-thumbing. If a tab would show a melody with drop-thumbs, I guess I'll work on it a bit more)

Just my thoughts...
I'll just add one thing: I don't think you 'learn' to play by ear. It will become a natural (and often easiest) thing on your musical journey.

-----

What will ya have?!
I'll have a pint!
I'll have a pint with you, Sir!

---

Edited by - haiku on 02/23/2007 20:16:25

nyartist - Posted - 02/24/2007:  06:47:19

---

[quote]Originally posted by bnjomn

Why must it be an either/or situation. It would make sense to me, to take from tab what you find useful, but always let your ear be your guide.

"A man must love a thing very much if he not only practices it without any hope of fame or money, but even practices it without any hope of doing it well."

G. K. Chesterton
[/quote
that's a great quote by Chesterson. I feel that way about my playing and I appreciate your balanced answer: to take from tab what I find useful but let my ear be my guide. That seems to be what I'm doing. I'm also finding clawhammer more fun that playing Scruggs style. Why? Scruggs style is really based on developing speed over time - something I always found frustrating due to some thumb problems. I'm doing things with clawhammer tunes after only 1- 2 weeks that I couldn't do with the same tunes after 5 years of 3 finger picking.

Vincent Banjogh

jasperr - Posted - 02/24/2007:  08:20:04

---

I've been using tabs for years. See nothing wrong with it. However, after I have learned the tune, the tab goes away, and the tune kinda evoves. In any case, congratulations for coming over from the dark side.

Jim

FretlessFury - Posted - 02/24/2007:  09:43:28

---

I agree with old woodchuck: use any and all tools that are available to you.

I find that tab can really speed up the time in which I learn a new tune. I see it as a leg up more than anything else. If I can find a good tab arrangement, I use it to give me the general impression of a tune and then I put the tab away and work to come up with my own version as best I can. I see well written tab as a blueprint of a tune that should be changed and modified to suit personal style.

Like anything though, too much of a good thing can be bad for you. If you find yourself unable to stray from what is written, or unable to hear variations outside of the tab then you probably should work to ween yourself off of it. Learning by ear is a gratifying feeling in and of itself, and like anything if you don't practice it you aren't going to get good at it.

I do wonder what the increasing availability of good tab is doing to the folk music process. I can see it as both a good and bad thing. Tab is good in that it makes otherwise difficult tunes accessible, and bad in that it removes the aural learning process and subsequent tune transformation that occurs with it.





Tom Collins

--------------------------
www.newhottimes.com

Red hot old time music.

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 02/24/2007:  09:48:41

---

Your hear a tune. You can hum, sing and even whistle it!

You go to play it (by ear) on the banjo, and you are not sure what key to play it in. Is it D? A? G? Something less common? Is there a capo needed?

How does one figure out which key is the right one?

tom clunie - Posted - 02/24/2007:  10:35:05

---

Wood chuck said "My teacher claimed that I would hold myself back with the tab - he however grew up in Spain and heard this stuff from childhood. "

Wow! Now I know there is at least one other person on BH that didn't live down the road from Ward Wade. I don't think I ever even SAW a real live banjo until I was in my 20's. I've narrated my travails trying to learn clawhammer elsewhere here on BH. Bottom line, to repete others, WHATEVER WORKS for YOU! I am begining to beleive that picking up fiddle tunes by ear is a skill that can be developed, we'll see. I have every intention of becoming a banjo prodigy before I am 99.Best wishes to you on your musical journey! TC

Nide44 - Posted - 02/24/2007:  10:45:52

---

Banjojudy,
Different keys, as well as tunings are for a number of reasons- not the least of which is simplification, or ease of producing a pleasing product.
Key? Which fits your vocal range (if you sing) or which is easiest to play?
Capo? same.....or to play in the key everybody else wants to. Why?
Fits the voice of the vocalist, or the fiddle player's choice- usually.
(OK, its Pretty Polly- what Key?)
How to figure out the 'right' one? Well, it depends if you're trying to learn something by ear and 'find' the tuning or key that you are listeneing to. Then its a matter of duplicating what you hear. Perfect pitch is the easiest way, noodling (plucking) just the simple melody (playing along) is the second best way. Then you must decide if it is in a minor, modal, or major key.
Usually the 'right' one is the one you decide is best suited for your playing ability and voice.

Bob B
Yup ! Them's red braces

---

Edited by - Nide44 on 02/24/2007 10:52:28

flatfoot - Posted - 02/24/2007:  11:04:57

---

>>>>...Your hear a tune. You can hum, sing and even whistle it!...You go to play it (by ear) on the banjo, and you are not sure what key....How does one figure out which key is the right one?...>>>>>>>


You have to know which notes are part of your vocal range. Play a "do-re- mi," scale from the lowest open string to the first string fifth fret. Find the point where a note is too low for your voice to sound good. Do the same going up the neck until you find the note that is too high. Your vocal range is the notes in between.

Now play the melody of the song. If it fits your range, good. If the melody goes a little too low, see if you can fix it with a capo. If the melody goes too high, try another key. If the song does not work in G, try C. If it doesnot work in C, try G. You can get close to your range by switching between G and C. Once you haVe chosen one of these keys, experiment with the capo to get it perfect.




.


I'm learning how to tune the strings
I'm learning how to frail
And how to sound like Earl Scruggs
The bluegrass holy grail.

flatfoot - Posted - 02/24/2007:  11:06:56

---

.

>>>Now I'm waiting delivery of Cathy Fink's Singing with the Banjo because that's REALLY what I want to be doing.>>>

I recently got Cathy's tape and it really helps a lot. I was able to finally get the hang of frailing and singing by looping a section of the DVD and playing along.

.

I'm learning how to tune the strings
I'm learning how to frail
And how to sound like Earl Scruggs
The bluegrass holy grail.

Brown44012 - Posted - 02/24/2007:  11:18:15

---

I think that we are all making a similiar point in that it is not an either learn by ear or learn by tab situation but rather a combination of using whatever tools available to get you there. I use both. I believe that the ability to learn by ear is one of the most useful things you can develop. I also believe that most of us can pick out tunes by ear if we are willing to work at it. Start by taking simple tunes such as kumbaya, Silent night or whatever that you know cold in your head and that you can hum or whistle and then try to find the notes on the banjo. Finding the right notes will be hard at first because it's something you are not used to doing. Over time your fingers will get better at going to the places on the banjo that match the tones in your head. Also, don't worry about clawhammering the tune at this point or involving the fifth string. The point is that you are just trying to find the right notes and not trying to make it sound like a clawhammer tune. Once the notes are down you can then work on playing it in clawhammer style.

In the meantime, while devoting some at least some of your practice time to ear training, there is nothing wrong with also learning tunes you can play right away from tab.

Good luck!

flatfoot - Posted - 02/24/2007:  11:23:23

---

.

Cathy Fink starts out with 3 similar and familar songs: "Worried Man," "This Little Light of Mine" and "Will the Cirlce be Unbroken," all in C. The melody notes for these songs fall very easily on the 3,2, and first strings and are good choices to begin the practice of finding where your voice falls. Switching between the keys of G and C on these songs was perfect for showing me where my voice fits the notes on the banjo.

.

I'm learning how to tune the strings
I'm learning how to frail
And how to sound like Earl Scruggs
The bluegrass holy grail.

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 02/24/2007:  11:28:14

---

I need to be more specific with my earlier question - here goes:

When playing with a group of people and wanting to be in whatever key they are in, how do I determine the key on the fly. This is what I need to sometimes do, and often, cannot do quickly.

Judy

flatfoot - Posted - 02/24/2007:  12:06:57

---

.

>>>>>When playing with a group of people and wanting to be in whatever key they are in, how do I determine the key on the fly>>>>

Ask the person who chose the song what the LAST chord of the song is. The name of the last chord is almost always the name of the key. The name of the first chord is less reliable.

You often will not be able to do this "on the fly." You will have to ask for a pause if you need to retune or set up your capo. Practice these skills so that you can do them quickly.



"I cannot talk to you right now
My break is coming 'round.
Kindly leave a message when
You hear the beeping sound."

Bart Veerman - Posted - 02/24/2007:  12:30:19

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BANJOJUDY

Have you ever memorized a piece by using tablature and found that without trying you altered it to fit your style?

---

If that's how it plays out for you then pat yourself on the back, you've passed an important milestone, quite a breakthrough really - congrats!

Bart.

*may your moments of need be met by moments of compassion*
free tabs: http://haruteq.com
free MP3's http://BanjoAddiction.com

Bart Veerman - Posted - 02/24/2007:  12:39:26

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BANJOJUDY

When playing with a group of people and wanting to be in whatever key they are in, how do I determine the key on the fly.

---

The simplest way is to ask else listen to the last chord of the A & B parts of a tune and see if you can find that sound/note on the third string (assuming you're in the regular G tuning). Then either barre that note or pretend you have your capo on that fret and make a C chord.

Another way is to try and remember how the guitar player fingers a chord so you can recognize the chords just by looking at the guitar player's fingers. Again, the last note of the A & B parts is what you'd be looking for. Mind you, some guitar players squish their fingers into weird shapes or positions whikle playing...

Bart.

*may your moments of need be met by moments of compassion*
free tabs: http://haruteq.com
free MP3's http://BanjoAddiction.com

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 02/24/2007:  13:14:42

---

When playing in the old-time group jams, people are really great about telling the key - and waiting for the banjo players to get into tune.

The better the players, the more aware they are that banjos are not always in the tune they need to be.

However, when I play with less aware would-be musicians, they just don't understand that banjos are not always in G for bluegrass and that the clawhammer style lends itself nicely to other tunings. The songs take off in a hurry and I find myself in the dust, and a little frustrated.

At least my kazoo does not require retuning - as a last resort I could play that and watch the room empty.

flatfoot - Posted - 02/24/2007:  13:56:40

---

.

>>>However, when I play with less aware would-be musicians...The songs take off in a hurry and I find myself in the dust, and a little frustrated.>>>>

You will need to develop some new skills for figuring out the key in these situations.

1. Learn which keys are most likely to be used. G,C,D, E and A are common. E-lat and A-flat less so.

3. Know which are the main chords for each of these keys.

2. Know what it means when the guitar player uses a capo. If she is playing the chords of the key of G and capoes up three flats, what key is that?

4. Once you have made these guesses, try the I and V chords in the key you have guessed very quietly and see if it fits.

All of this falls under the heading of music theory. You can find a lot of info about music thoery with a couple of Web searches. The learning process will not be easy or fast.
.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"I cannot talk to you right now
My break is coming 'round.
Kindly leave a message when
You hear the beeping sound."

Brown44012 - Posted - 02/24/2007:  14:29:25

---

Judy,

Sometimes if I am tuned to say double D tuning and the jam switches to G, for a just a tune, I'll just play the chords that are in the key of G out of the double D tuning to avoid retuning. This usually sounds fine if your chord changes are right. Most of the time, people know that clawhammer players play out of certain tunings so they don't switch keys on them with every song --unless they want them to leave.

ajbadger - Posted - 02/24/2007:  18:20:28

---

I do great learning to play a tune by ear. In fact, that is the quickest way for me to lean a new piece.

However, I tend toward a certain playing style that I find limiting. It is what I would call a comfort zone of playing., so I also like to use tablature of others to expand on my style. Tabs also help me learn new ways to navigate the fretboard.

I see advantages to both, so I am not going to get religious about it.

You have to decide what works best for you.

Sincerely,

AJ

http://clawhammerbanjo.wordpress.com/
===============
"Reason is the slave of desire."

Rachel Streich - Posted - 02/24/2007:  18:45:15

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BANJOJUDY

I need to be more specific with my earlier question - here goes:

When playing with a group of people and wanting to be in whatever key they are in, how do I determine the key on the fly. This is what I need to sometimes do, and often, cannot do quickly.

Judy

---

Hi Judy --

If you're playing with a group of people and are not sure what key they're in, the easiest way to find out is to ask the person sitting next to you .

If you're at an old-time jam, you'll find that the group will usually stay in one key for several tunes (or several hours ) before switching to a new key for another group of songs or tunes -- and when they do, the switch to the new key will be clearly announced and ample time given for everyone who needs to re-tune to do so.

If you're at a folkie jam, or a bluegrass jam, it gets a little more difficult, as folkies and BG'ers are more apt to change keys from one song to the next depending on who's singing lead - and they may not be as sympathetic to the needs of clawhammer banjo players to retune. But you should still be able to ask "What key is this song in?" and get a helpful answer. Whether you'll get time to retune before the song starts is another question, however.......

Rachel Streich

What?: c 1920 Weymann 5-string openback
How Long?: Since 1989
Venues: Mostly jamming, willing to teach
Style: Old-time clawhammer
Other: Fiddle, guitar, some mandolin, vocals
Working On: "Garfield's Blackberry Blossom"
Dream Banjo: I'll know it when I see it

brokenstrings - Posted - 02/24/2007:  19:53:25

---

Just another voice to say it doesn't have to be either-or (ear or tablature). When I was first playing folk guitar, I usedta get the chords for songs out of books until I discovered that my ear would tell me when to change and what-to to change. The only tab I used then was for old lute and vihuela pieces (not folk).

Jessy

Frailaway, ladies, frailaway!

Clawdan - Posted - 02/25/2007:  10:31:58

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bnjomn

Why must it be an either/or situation. It would make sense to me, to take from tab what you find useful, but always let your ear be your guide.

---

There are many great comments here, but I agree, this one says the most. I find that tab helps you along as you learn to trust your ear and your memory will change the tune to suite your own playing before you know it.

Get all the tools you can and use them to their best advantage.

Play nice,
Dan "Ain't no bum-diddy" Levenson
Old Time Music and Dance
www.ClawhammerBanjo.us
Author of Clawhammer Banjo From Scratch, A guide for the claw-less - a MelBay Publication
and Old Time Festival Tunes for Clawhammer Banjo (MelBay 20313) - 117 tunes tabbed for clawhammer banjo with standard notation and suggested chords.
Tune list at http://www.folknet.org/dan/FestTunesBJBook.htm

ScottK - Posted - 02/25/2007:  14:04:23

---

Hey Vincent,

I think the answer to your question depends partly on what your musical goals are. If you just want to learn tunes and songs to play by yourself or with a few close friends, then I think there is nothing wrong with learning them from tab. If you want to participate in open old time jams, then I think developing the ability to learn tunes by ear becomes important. The old time repertoire is so vast and the regional and personal differences in how tunes are played is so varied that you are always running into tunes in jams that you don't know. If you want to play along, you have to be able to dive in and figure out how to play some of the tunes on the fly. Even if you record the unfamiliar tunes to learn at home, you may not be able to find a tab for these tunes or versions and so have to resort to learning them by ear if you want to pick them up.

I spent two years learning strictly from tab. Then I found some folk to jam with on a regular basis and started learning tunes by ear out of necessity. Once I started doing it I found it easier than I had imaginged it to be. Like anything else, you get better with practice. Lots of good advice earlier on the thread about how to do it, but a key for me is oldwoodchuck's advice to start by listening to a tune I want to learn by ear until I get it burned into my head. Nowdays I learn tunes both ways.

Scott

tubaphonethumper - Posted - 02/26/2007:  13:29:19

---

Hi Gang,
On the banjo I learn mainly by ear. I have a little nerological damage to my frailing wrist. If I look at tab or conciously attempt to control the whole process, I am sunk. I have little control.The best way for me is simply to hear it and let my fingers take over. Get my brain out of the way as far as y right hand goes.
The main problem is that my creativity in responding to what I am hearing often gets in a rut. I tend to us a lot of the same left hand formations. I am trying to break out of that by playing more up the neck or playing chords in a different way than he usual 1st-5th fret formations.

As to figuring out keys, I just read what ever the guitar back up people are doing. Since I know what their chords look like, I can tell pretty much what key they are messing with.
Happy plunking.
Edna Mae

Forgive 'em today. Tormorrow one of you may have croaked.

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 02/26/2007:  22:17:45

---

Playing by ear seems intimidating, but it comes easier if you take it in steps. First, get the tune firmly in your head. Listen until you can sing or hum the tune without actually playing the recording. People ask about ear training, but your ears have been in training since Mama sang to you in your early childhood.
Second, get to know your fretboard intimately. Play scales and chords in different positions. If you can find the do re mi you're on your way. Using different tunings changes things, but it's not insurmountable. Play one tuning for a while, then change.
Third, After practicing a scale, or some chords, or a new song,reward yourself by playing a few songs just to enjoy them. Sing, even if you think you can't. It helps you hear the chord/ melody relationship.
Fourth, start by playing simple songs you've heard all your life. Songs Mama sang, religious songs, holliday songs, childrens songs. These simple songs are so familliar to us, we know instantly when we make a mistake. But don't stop when you make mistakes, learn to keep your place and get back on track. Playing with others is the best help there is for learning to keep good time. If you stop, you'll be out of time automatically.Fifth, I use tab regularly to learn more difficult songs, or when I'm stuck. It's not cheating, just another tool.
This is getting long, but it's not that many steps, just my normal running at the mouth. Good luck, and let us know how it's working out. Paul

rendesvous1840

nyartist - Posted - 02/27/2007:  08:23:50

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ScottK

Hey Vincent,

I think the answer to your question depends partly on what your musical goals are. If you just want to learn tunes and songs to play by yourself or with a few close friends, then I think there is nothing wrong with learning them from tab. If you want to participate in open old time jams, then I think developing the ability to learn tunes by ear becomes important. The old time repertoire is so vast and the regional and personal differences in how tunes are played is so varied that you are always running into tunes in jams that you don't know. If you want to play along, you have to be able to dive in and figure out how to play some of the tunes on the fly. Even if you record the unfamiliar tunes to learn at home, you may not be able to find a tab for these tunes or versions and so have to resort to learning them by ear if you want to pick them up.

I spent two years learning strictly from tab. Then I found some folk to jam with on a regular basis and started learning tunes by ear out of necessity. Once I started doing it I found it easier than I had imaginged it to be. Like anything else, you get better with practice. Lots of good advice earlier on the thread about how to do it, but a key for me is oldwoodchuck's advice to start by listening to a tune I want to learn by ear until I get it burned into my head. Nowdays I learn tunes both ways.

Scott

---

Hey Scott... thanks for the understanding. As you say it really depends on my musical goals. Right now I feel I have a lot of catching up to do to learn clawhammer style after 5 years with Scruggs style so I'm really pushing myself to learn some tabs. I can appreciate the fact that I don't have to be playing at a million beats a minute to get a song to sound good. So, my musical goals right now are to learn some tabs so I can enjoy playing for myself or out in the street when I travel - things like that. We don't have many (any) old timey jams here inj NYC as far as I know so my opporunities there are not what's motivating me.

Vincent Banjogh
http://www.phillevine.com

Jacinto Guevara - Posted - 03/02/2007:  11:42:54

---

NY Artist, I like that painting .

In my humble opinion, tabs should be banned from the face of the earth!

If you learned to walk and tie your shoe laces, you can learn to play by ear. Start RIGHT NOW by figuring out simple tunes that you have heard for years such as Mary Had a Little Lamb, La Cucaracha, Like a Virgin, whatever then go on to recordings. Try to get the "skeleton" of the tune, a simple outline. Get the first and last notes.

This assumes you spent a major portion of your life learning the extremely complicated SEVEN notes of a couple of common keys like C, D, F. G. and A.

Of course the big battle is tuneing your instrument to the recording.

Oops, Rendevous1840 said everything I just said here. Sorry I didn't read his/hers first.

---

Edited by - Jacinto Guevara on 03/02/2007 11:45:38

rendesvous1840 - Posted - 03/02/2007:  17:25:22

---

I see tab as another tool. You can drill holes with a screwdriver, but why?If tab gets you over the tough sections until you learn to play by ear, why fight to learn the harder way. Most players will find the tab less necessary as time goes on. But even after playing guitar since 1966, and banjo since '68, i still use tab when I need to. I don't need it on the easier tunes that used to throw me, only on more difficult ones. Or styles of music I'm not very familiar with.
For more on this, go to www.sugarinthegourd.com/ Click on Forum, scroll to Banjo,then to Learning the banjo- Tab is not evil.


"As I see it, every newborn baby should be issued a banjo>"... Linus

rendesvous1840

flowerofthewest - Posted - 03/03/2007:  15:09:58

---

I learn by both now. It's taken me a couple of years to get there. I think as time goes on as a banjo player you evolve, as do the tunes you keep playing. I find that as I get to know my fingerboard better, it's easier to pick out tunes.
I like tab mainly because it gives you a framework to learn with. Once you get the 'hang' of the tune, toss the tab and let it evolve...

Jody

"Wildflowers don't care where they grow..."

www.nowhereradio.com/flowerofthewest

bw - Posted - 03/03/2007:  20:14:53

---

I think for some tab smacks of formalism and the "class-driven" western adherence to textualism ( read: effete elitism) and, hence, totally at odds with the purity and earthiness of the folk method ( read: naive democratism). We all know, of course, that earthy "holiness" is the true prize once you get west of the Piedmont...Brian in sarcastic NC

Jacinto Guevara - Posted - 03/03/2007:  21:24:28

---

BW as goofy as that sounds I actually agree 100%, gawd dang it.