godsey - Posted - 02/02/2007:  13:50:52

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i've had a banjo for 10 months.

i've practiced on all but 10 or 12 days, for anywhere from 15 minutes to four or five hours.
my ability to play basic and intermediate clawhammer tabs put froth by ken perlman, clawdan, mike iverson, and others is consistently growing in accuracy, subtlety, consistency, and other important areas.
i can solidly drop thumb on one of my banjos (a fretted enoch tradesman), but only inconsistently on the other (a gold tone cripple creek 100).

i can't yet tune by ear.
i've memorized a couple tabs, but doing so is still difficult (what with mentally and physically fighting against all my frailing and fretting mistakes), and stuff like learning tunes by ear, improvising variations, figuring out arrangements, transferring a tune from one key to another, etc. seems enough like witchcraft that i'm not convinced i'll ever be able to do any of it.
i can't imagine being competent and un-self-conscious enough to play with anyone other than the guy who sold me my first banjo.

so when i refer to me and the banjo, what i say now, and what i'll say for the forseeable future, is that "i'm learning to play the banjo."

i won't say, "i play the banjo" until i can do all that stuff i still can't.
based on my current rate of progress, odds are that'll be at least two or three years from now.

what's your definition? your timetable? your experience?

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Edited by - godsey on 02/02/2007 13:53:36

TheBoog - Posted - 02/02/2007:  14:14:28

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My advice would be to forget about all that stuff, and just keep at it. Things can happen very quickly in the brain. Many times I have gone to bed not being able to do something on the 5-string only to wake up the next day and do it with ease.

Also, we're all different and learn at a different speed.

Pratice, practice, practice.

Cheers,

Boog
"Murphy was an optimist"
www.hyperscribe.ca
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=BanjoBoog

wrangler - Posted - 02/02/2007:  14:16:52

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I would say that you can play the banjo. You may not be able to play like you want. I have been playing for about 43 years and I still learn new songs, licks and ways to do things. I will not be where I want to be until I get that job pushing up flowers.

Mike

To peace, happiness, banjos that stay in tune and people likewise.

vrteach - Posted - 02/02/2007:  14:51:23

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I would also say that you can play the banjo. You are working toward being able to play music -- being able to do a tune without being any more conscious of the banjo than you are of your lips & mouth when whistling. It'll happen.

Duluth MN! That's my home town. I'm up there a couple of times a year visiting family and in-laws. I'll drop you an email sometime.


Erich
-------
http://vrteach.freepgs.com/banjo/

Rich B. - Posted - 02/02/2007:  14:53:37

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I'd like to agree with Mike. On some level, I said that I played the banjo from the first strum with a David Holt video in the VCR. After all, if I were to wait until I reached some specific level of skill, I'd never call myself a player. Even the best players are learning something new all the time, or, as a friend of mine says, if you're not getting better at something, you're getting worse. There is no stasis. So my identity as a musician (or banjo player) comes from the fact that whenever I hold my instrument, I'm doing something that I really enjoy. Even if, by some miracle, I were ever to be able to play like Mike Seeger, I probably wouldn't enjoy the instrument anymore than I do now (although, my family probably would)

best,

Rich B.

nihilist37 - Posted - 02/02/2007:  18:58:01

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I agree with most of whats being said. However I've defined knowing how to play to be different in my mind. I've played guitar for most of my life, 15 years. A few months back someone asked me how do you know how to play all these instruments (my dorm room has about 30 instruments in it, standard and non standard) I said that I didn't know how to play any of them. I gave it a thought and figured that to know how to play an instrument is to be able to freely play any tune you can hear or make up without prior practice or notation cues. It was then that I realised I will never know how to play an instrument.

these days if people ask me if I know how to play guitar / banjo/ mando/ uke/ sarod/ flute/ whistle etc. I just say I can play them. but i dont 'know' how to play them. Because I've practised the tunes and can play them well enough to look lke i know what I'm doing

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Edited by - nihilist37 on 02/02/2007 19:43:44

oldwoodchuckb - Posted - 02/02/2007:  19:13:45

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You are doing fine. At ten months I couldn't play any tunes through without HUGE mistakes, and couldn't hold down a lot of chords (in my defense I was only 12 and the guitar had wicked action). Everyone learns at thier own speed - it took me years of teaching to figure that out - and no one excells at every phase of an instrument.

Memorization is the key to playing tunes without mistakes. Here are some aids.

Try to memorize tunes in phrases instead of measures. A phrase is a musical sentence that usually coincides with a line of song - so start with a tune that has words - like Cripple Creek or Old Joe Clark. Thses are the phrases-
I went down to Old Joe's House (phrase 1)
Old Joe Wasn't home (phrase 2)
Et up all his beans and ham (phrase 3)
Left him just the bone (phrase 4)

Start with a melody this simple if you dan't start with Old Joe Clark.

Another thing to do is simplify complex tabs and play only the melody notes - mark them with a red pencil or something - so you can hear the shape of the tune.
Take a look at the Whiskey Variations by following the link in my signature for a group of versions of one tune, showing how to simplify complex tabs.


The Whiskey Before Breakfast variations and a few tunes in "F" tuning are now available on the web at:
http://home.thegrid.net/~fjbrad/id20.html

tom howlett - Posted - 02/02/2007:  21:53:19

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your story reads alot like mine, i don't play the banjo, i'm just a guy with a banjo.
that said, i've been taking lessons for over a year now and i am light years ahead of the day i began.
i can get through a few songs fairly well, but there is so much room to improve. i play over and over with occational improvement. my instructor gives me particular songs to work with that have some kind of technical feature that adds to my "tool box".
as time goes by i can't help hearing myself and realizing that i am "getting it".
i personally feel that my learning curve to acheive advanced beginner is 2 - 3 years. i'm not sure how others gage their progress, but this is a good fit for me. i can enjoy sitting on the front porch playing to my own satisfaction, and thats what really matters.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 02/02/2007:  22:56:33

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To me, if you can play even one tune you play the banjo.

How well is always a question with a subjective answer.

Hopefully you will never stop learning.

As for myself, I will consider my self a student of the instrument until the day I put it down for the last time. Every time I think I have "arrived", I learn/ realize I need to learn something new. This has happened so many times in the past, that even though after playing 40 years I think my playing has crystallized, I know something else is bound to turn up sooner or later.

I started playing in 1969, and if you would have asked me in 2003, I would have said my playing was pretty much how it was going to be. Anyone who read my Cotton Blossom book knows that 2003 ended up being the year of one of, if not my biggest banjo epiphanies! Things have been radically different since. You never know what's around the corner!

R.D. Lunceford- "Missourian in Exile"
*************************
Model 1865 Bowlin Fretless Banjo

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Edited by - R.D. Lunceford on 02/02/2007 22:58:37

wormpicker - Posted - 02/03/2007:  00:29:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by godsey
i can't imagine being competent and un-self-conscious enough to play with anyone other than the guy who sold me my first banjo.

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From one closet picker to another, may I suggest that you try to face your inhibitions head on and find people to play with asap? I think it will do wonders for your progress. I also think you'll find that most people will forgive your level of incompetence, since they were all there at one time (or still are there). If you wait till you're "good enough" (as I did for 3 1/2 years while trying to learn bluegrass), you'll never get good enough.

Paul

Obsession is a great substitute for talent. -Steve Martin

janolov - Posted - 02/03/2007:  05:24:35

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I have found the moore I have learned about banjo playing, the more I have discovered that I don't know but should know.

Janolov

Clodhopper - Posted - 02/03/2007:  08:42:06

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I am in the opposite situation. I tried to learn guitar starting when I was 14, and never got too far past playing Louie Louie on barr chords, mostly because I wasn't disciplined enough to practice. I fooled with it for about 5 or 6 years but never got much better before I gave it up. I'd been wanting to play banjo for about 15 years before I finally bought my first usable banjo in October. Since then I have been really happy with the progress I have made. I am now a much better banjo player then I ever was a guitar player.
I kind of assumed I would have a simular experience with the banjo that I had with the guitar. I went into it with very low expectations so it was pretty easy to be pleased. In the general scheme of things I am not very good at all, I am sure nowhere near as good as Godsey. I am just lucky enough to be better than I thought I would be. Maybe to key to happiness is low expectations. Somewhere I read or heard " Success isn't a station you arrive at, it's the train your on." or something along those lines. Maybe it was here.

It's never too hot for coffee, it's never too cold for beer.

banjoman.com - Posted - 02/03/2007:  17:21:47

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The Steve Martin quote that Obsession is a great substitute for talent speaks to this issue. Productive obsession is essential to talent. Oh, sure there are people who are naturally more coordinated and have a better ear....but those folks usually also have a great ability to listen, hear what they are doing and make corrections when needed. They are really focused and relaxed when they play and they never practice their mistakes. So let the obsession work for you. It is the only way you'll get good.

In any case, give yourself a good year of practice to get good enough to please youself, 3 years to please your family, and at about 10 years to please an audience.


David Holt

banjopogo - Posted - 02/15/2007:  23:05:50

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There are several rites of passage in
playing the banjo.

1. Playing in front of other people without
your playing falling apart too badly:
A beginning player who's well on their way...

2. Playing <with> other musicians and being
able to keep up, when you've been learning the same
version from the same source.
Extremely slow or fast tempos might still be challenging:
An Intermediate player...

3. Being able to jump in to a jam or other situation
where you don't know the tunes, and draw
on previous playing experience to create a backup
part that is rhythmically and harmonically satisfying
to the other jam participants:

An advanced player.

Michael

mp3 page: http://ezfolk.com/audio/bands/1088/
hifi radio: http://ezfolk.com/audio/play.php?mode=radio&id=481
lofi radio: http://ezfolk.com/audio/play.php?mode=radio&id=522

"We have met the Enemy, and he is us!"- Walt Kelly's "Pogo"

LEUllman - Posted - 02/15/2007:  23:31:56

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Godsey,

I too had a tough time weaning myself from tab and getting used to the whole play-by-ear-no-tab-allowed old-time scene. After about two years of attending a monthly jam, I can now get by without embarassing myself too badly.

One thing that helps alot is playing along with the MIDI arrangements on Hetzlers Fakebook. This indispensible resource is at www.hetzlersfakebook.com. Give it try.

"Ring, ring the banjo, I love that good old song."

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 02/16/2007:  00:13:01

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Just visited the Hetzler's Fake Book site. It looked promising, so I played one of the MIDI files. Am I missing something here? The sound is terrible - sounds as though it was recorded using an electronic keyboard set to imitate musical instruments.

Jacinto Guevara - Posted - 02/16/2007:  14:55:01

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YOU...
work out a repertoire at home, practicing by yourself, sitting in a comfortable chair in a room that resonates your instrument to its fullest so that it feedsback into your body and you can FEEL the music.

THEN...
you go to a gig with a jam band situation and lo and behold you CAN'T hear your instrument since the sound is going away from you, you can't feel the instrument, you realize your fingers are doing the correct lick but offset about two frets!

Oh yah, and you have to do mortal combat against a thrashing drummer and a bassman with a monster amp who thinks people a mile away want to hear his non-musical thumps.

If you can survive THAT battle you are on your way to being a REAL musician-well, a begginer musician at least.

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Edited by - Jacinto Guevara on 02/16/2007 14:57:21

eickmewg - Posted - 02/16/2007:  17:05:18

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One of the things I love about Clawhammer banjo and all the good folks who can play it is the JOY you can feel in the music. Most all the OT stuff is dance music and you can almost close your eyes and see the happy feet. I feel as though I can, to use Zepp's colorful phrase, most often "make banjo-like noises" that don't sound too bad and when I can get in the groove, the JOY can flow through my fingers and I am happy, one with my banjo. In addition, being able to concoct your own version of old favorites and to allow your fingers to stray from the tab on the page to generate new and interesting variations on the theme is a step in the direction of being able to know how to play.

Bill

'05 Lee Rose Hill 12", #165
'06 Romero 13" custom walnut, #0684

twelvefret - Posted - 02/16/2007:  21:00:20

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quote:

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To me, if you can play even one tune you play the banjo.

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IMHO, this sums it up beautifully.

Twelvefret <><

"Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make something simple." Pete Seeger

" I 'm happier than a tornado in a trailer park" from the movie, "Cars"

J-Walk - Posted - 02/16/2007:  21:10:34

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sounds as though it was recorded using an electronic keyboard set to imitate musical instruments.

The MIDI sounds that you hear depend on the qualify of the MIDI in your sound card. It sounds pretty decent on my system, but nothing at all like real instruments. Remember, those MIDI files are not intended for quality listening. They are there in order to show people what the tune sounds like. And for that purpose, they do the job nicely.

LEUllman - Posted - 02/16/2007:  21:23:40

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Banjo Judy,

You're not missing anything - the files on Hetzler's are MIDI files, not recordings of actual instruments. MIDI files send simple note on/off commands that trigger the "instruments-on-a-chip" built into the soundcard inside your PC. Some soundcards have better instrument synthesizers than others, but sound quality is not the point here.

Because the Hetzler files are MIDI files, you can speed them up and slow them down without affecting the pitch. You can also transpose the tunes up or down to any key, which can be quite handy. You can turn the individual tracks ("instruments") on or off to, say, isolate just the bass line. Finally, using a separate piece of software, you can convert the MIDI files into musical notation and print them out.

They may not sound pretty, but they're pretty darn useful nevertheless!

"Ring, ring the banjo, I love that good old song."

dbrooks - Posted - 02/16/2007:  21:45:59

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The midi files on Hetzler's Fakebook site work quite well with the free program Vanbasco's Karaoke. You can search for this program using Google, download it and install it. It has separate controls for the tempo and the pitch, and it will loop through a song.

The midi files don't sound like an oldtime jam, but they do provide more support than a lone metronome. You can work on speed, transtions between parts of tunes, variations, etc. It also helps you learn to play through mistakes, a key step in reducing them. The tune continues on when you make a mistake, so you learn to jump in a few notes ahead. Over time, it takes you less time to pick up the melody and continue.

Give it a try.

David

Barretone - Posted - 02/17/2007:  12:43:41

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I've been playing 30 years. I play professionally. I'm still learning the banjo. A famous cellist was asked, when he was 80, why he still practiced 8 hours a day. His reply: "I believe I'm making progress."

Randy

vega long neck - Posted - 02/17/2007:  22:17:32

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I think janolov said it pretty well. It seems that the more you do know the more you how much more there is that you don't know how to do. The beauty of the 60s was that anybody that had the nerve/desire to get up and do their thing with the banjo was considered a player.. Hey, what'd ANYONE know? Consider that many albums were recorded on a reel to reel with a single mike, the threshold of "good enough" was unthinkable low by today's measuring stick.

If you like it, it's good and keep doing it. You'll always want it faster (?), crisper, a little flashier. So practice that too, you'll get it.

Relating to your basic question; 44 years after my first banjo, a Sears-Roebuck Silvertone, I still consider myself a singer who accompanies himself rather than a banjo player. Jens Kruger?, now HE's a banjo player!!


Scott

mwc9725e - Posted - 02/20/2007:  07:01:44

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quote:

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Originally posted by godsey




what's your definition? your timetable? your experience?

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I can't define it but I guess I'll know it when I get there.

ZEPP - Posted - 02/20/2007:  08:12:41

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One of my students who had read this discussion asked me about this on Saturday. I had not given it any thought before, as I am one of those "learning-an-instrument-is-a-journey-not-a-destination" people.

Thus, upon being asked the question directly, I leaned over and strummed across the strings of a banjo tuned to an open G.

"There," I said, "I'm playing the banjo. The only question that remains is just how refined I might care to make my playing become."

Then, after he had laughed and said that the biggest difference he could see is the amount of time we had respectively invested to the instrument, I told him that he was right, and concocted another analogy: It as if we were both skiing down the same, progressively difficult slope. I had left a long time before and had gotten pretty far, though I still crash from time to time. He had started down more recently, and could expect to crash a bit earlier and more frequently, but we were still each skiing, and skiing down the same slope, at that.

Thus, to reiterate: IMNSHO, if you can strum a G chord you're "playing the banjo"--the rest is all semantics.

Cheers,
ZEPP


* zepp@zeppmusic.com website: http://zeppmusic.com/ Skype us at zeppmusic *

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Edited by - ZEPP on 02/20/2007 14:14:47

BANJOJUDY - Posted - 02/20/2007:  08:46:19

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Our local megaband has put up some clips of their music. Click here for the music:

http://www.folkmads.org/megaband_tunes.html

You can slow these down with Amazing Slowdowner (http://www.ronimusic.com/).

Just another source of tunes for all of you...Judy

nycplucker - Posted - 02/21/2007:  10:47:03

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very interesting string here. i think this discussion has evolved into playing notes vs. making music.

yes, you are playing the banjo, but are you making music?

there are a several aspects to musicianship including creative use of phrasing, dynamics, tempo and the ability to interpret your song by adding embellishments that complement the people you are playing with.

i've been playing guitar for 26 years (including a 4 year degree in classical guitar at a college level). i can call myself a musician when playing guitar. i started playing banjo about 3 years ago but don't consider my banjo playing at a professional level yet. the best way to get a reality check on your musicianship is to record yourself. when i record myself and still hear things that don't make musical sense.

when you really know your instrument you are able to hear the way you wnat to play a phrase in your head and execute it. also, there is the aspect of knowing your way around the fret board. i still have not completely wrapped my head around being able to comfortably improvise in the higher positions.

that's one of the beauties of music, one can never fully master it, but it's really fun working towards it.

Galante_K4 - Posted - 02/21/2007:  11:19:34

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"knowing how to play"

When people smile and tap their feet as you play.

None of us will ever be perfect ... just try to keep getting better.

"Admitting to yourself that you have BAS is the first step in recovery."

chip arnold - Posted - 02/21/2007:  11:42:29

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Here's a quote from Ghandi: "The goal ever recedes from us. The greater the progress the greater
the recognition of our unworthiness. Satisfaction lies in the effort,
not in the attainment. Full effort is full victory".
(Gandhi, `Gandhi the Man')

Ghandi must have been a banjo picker.



Play with a plan
Chip

haiku - Posted - 02/21/2007:  12:04:25

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I'll add my thoughts

I think I agree with Zepp (Tip: always agree with Zepp, you can't be wrong -BTW Zepp: is your spring trip still on your plans?):
Ss soon you're strumming a open G chord, you're playin some music.
As soon as you can strum 3 chords and hum a song, you know how to play this or that song.

Now, I play music for 15 years or so. I play the guitar, the bass, and now a bit of banjo.
Folks sometimes tells me: "You're an artist".
I always answer "No I'm really not. Call me a musician if you like - I'm not really sure I am, but won't disagree. I call my self an 'artisan'".

'Artisan' or craftsman, suits me well. Just workin with my own two hands, with no particular talents, to built a piece of music that other people might enjoy.

And, like a french song say:
"Y a que les routes qui sont belles, et peu importe où elles mènent"

Meaning: "Only the roads are beautifull, no matter where they leads"
Pretty much, like Zepp said, "learning an instrument is a journey not a destination"

But I guess I'm not a thinking people.
Just play, everything will be fine




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What will ya have?!
I'll have a pint!
I'll have a pint with you, Sir!

chasgrav - Posted - 02/21/2007:  12:59:55

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Fortunately, Zepp no longer lives in Ithaca, so there's no danger of his trying to ski while playing that gorgeous old 'Electric'!!!