rkdjones - Posted - 01/03/2026:  11:03:02

In a separate post Ethan (Banjoboyd) mentioned that there is a tradition of tuning the 5-string gDGBE, like the top 4 strings of a guitar. In my struggle to simplify how many chord shapes and fretboard maps I use, I've wondered about tuning my 5-string with a high E. I know a lot of fingering for chords outside the I, IV, V, from playing the baritone ukulele tuned DGBE.

I am open to suggestions. What are the pros and cons of open G vs gDGBE on the 5-string?

Robert

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/03/2026:  11:09:19

If you’re a finger picker and given to chords, it might be fine. Clawhammer is not a cordial style though, so I think having the D available is preferable.

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/04/2026:  02:27:15

I've never come across tab for a clawhammer tune in gDGBE -- or it's just as likely I just ignored them, because I find the myriad of potential tunings unneccesary for my playing. I suppose some people get off on retuning their banjo every five minutes, but I'm not one of them.



In fact, for the past several years, I've kept my banjos strictly to Sawmill. It's only been the last couple of months since I've ventured into Double C. I'm not a huge fan of Open G, but I'm not entirely closed off to it. 



If I wanted to play guitar, I would have stuck to that. I'm not sure how you'd work with that g string if you're playing in keys that don't require it. The dude with the chinstache from Wovenhand does some fretting on the g string, but then you'll be playing up the neck.



I believe I saw another post from @rkdjones in which you were wondering how to simplify learning to play clawhammer. I'll suggest that you're looking at it from the wrong perspective. Consider the banjo - and specifically clawhammer banjo - as its own instrument, unrelated to what you know from guitar. The simplest way is just to take it step by step. Don't worry about chords and scales and notes on the fretboard and all that clutter. At least for the moment. I'd recommend working your way through the Banjo Blitz series: youtube.com/watch?v=ttPgCTXuqz...kEcmL1OQA

Edited by - Mickhammer on 01/04/2026 02:28:42

Bill H - Posted - 01/04/2026:  03:03:22

There is a long tradition in old time playing styles to tune the banjo to make certain tunes easier to play or to make chords and melody more accessible. So, if it works for you, go ahead.

I disagree with the idea that claw hammer players need not learn chords. My feeling is that staying with more traditional tunings, particularly open G and learning chords up and down the neck is a useful skill to have and basic to playing any style of banjo.

carlb - Posted - 01/04/2026:  03:56:25

If you're interested, here's an 1980 article, with tabs, that appeared in the Banjo NewsLetter.

Guitar Player's Easy Path to Clawhammer

banjohangout.org/tab/browse.as...p;v=17959

Article contains suggestions on playing with the banjo tuned, in a relative manner, to the top four strings of a guitar or the bottom four strings (Kyle Creed's tuning for Cumberland Gap). 5th string can be tuned to play in most any key. Chord positions are like guitar chords.

Nopix - Posted - 01/04/2026:  06:17:02

I de-tune my guitar fine string down to a D, so it's fair play.
I didn't ask anyone's permission. This was 40 years ago, pre-internet.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 01/04/2026:  08:30:47

IIRC, I have a couple of Bob Flesher clawhammer tabs in gCGBE. They're not meant to emulate the guitar, only to suit a couple of tunes in Cmaj.

At home, I play in one tuning until I've played all that I have in that tuning. Then I retune and do all of those tunes, etc.

In a jam, I carry two banjos, one in aDADE (easy to get aEADE), one in gDGBD (capo to A).

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/04/2026:  09:32:22

I have a little suction-cup 5th string capo that makes it really easy to change that string's tuning (I have a song in Sawmill+ i.e., aDGCD). This little bugger is easier for me than spikes, especially when I'm playing live.

rkdjones - Posted - 01/04/2026:  10:08:34

Thanks all for your comments. There are some things I can use. It sounds like gDGBE isn't resonating here.

50 years ago I bought a book of banjo chords (Yes, I am that old and still a novice). It had 8 different tunings. And I just added two more to consider: gDGBE and gDAE (on the tenor banjo). Overwhelmed am I. Is there any other instrument with so many tunings? If I commit to mastering the fretboard I need to narrow my focus.

I view the 5-string is basically a 4-string fretted instrument with a drone string. I play some of those other 4-string instruments. Is the 5-string something so different than the mandolin, tenor banjo, ukulele, and tenor guitar that it needs to be approached as a unique instrument, or 8 unique instruments depending on the tuning?

BTW, playing clawhammer style on a 4-string tenor banjo in reentrant tuning sounds pretty good.

banjoboyd - Posted - 01/04/2026:  10:14:03

To be clear, I was referring to gCGBD aka "concert" aka (in the old-time world) "drop C."

DGBE (no 5th string) has been used by tenor/plectrum banjoists and is sometimes called Chicago tuning. And yes, it is the same as baritone uke tuning.

I could totally see someone using xDGBE (where x changes depending on the key) as their main tuning on 5-string. I'm sure someone has. But the real question is, does it work for the kind of music you play?

pinenut - Posted - 01/04/2026:  10:34:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

If I commit to mastering the fretboard I need to narrow my focus.

gDGBD/gCGCD/gDGCD for the bulk of the old-time way

or select the classic route and learn gCGBD

or select the more chord based bluegrass way and mostly stick to gDGBD  (no matter the play  style)

I view the 5-string is basically a 4-string fretted instrument with a drone string. I play some of those other 4-string instruments. Is the 5-string something so different than the mandolin, tenor banjo, ukulele, and tenor guitar that it needs to be approached as a unique instrument, or 8 unique instruments depending on the tuning?

Mandolin, tenor and probably ukulele were designed from the start in the western music philosophy and methods. 

The five string banjo is a non-western instrument with a western philosophy overlay.  It's true about it being "basically a 4-string fretted instrument with a drone string", however, the philosophy of play deviates from those other 4-string instruments.  Many of them are largely single focus: melody or rhythm or beat or back-up fill or...  The pre-bluegrass banjo play styles are often less focused solo styles and need to cheat a little bit using different tunings instead of fully locking into the western structure.  

Embracing it, is a struggle for me too.  I am, slowly, molding my mind to move 'correctly'.

P.S. banjoboyd and Bill Rogers are solid for the philosophy, methods, and history.

---

Edited by - pinenut on 01/04/2026 10:49:28

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/04/2026:  10:39:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

I view the 5-string is basically a 4-string fretted instrument with a drone string. Is the 5-string something so different than the mandolin, tenor banjo, ukulele, and tenor guitar 

---

I suppose it all depends on the music you're trying to make. For me, yes, 5-string banjo is vastly different from guitar or any other instrument, precisely because of that drone string. I spent years being frustrated by the guitar, never able to achieve the sound I was looking for. Meanwhile, as soon as I pick up a banjo, I just... play.

For me, that drone string is everything - it makes it possible to create incredibly rich soundscapes. Especially when combined with the various tricks of playing clawhammer (I also really like playing thumb-lead style). 

Give Sawmill a try - don't bother with tunes and chords. Just plant your index on Fret 2 String 2 and see what happens....

Owen - Posted - 01/04/2026:  10:41:50

Tongue-in-cheek, are youse guys telling me there's more to banjo than:  a) "There's 2 keys... G and not-G" and b) the open G chord is a feebie?   

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/04/2026:  10:47:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

Tongue-in-cheek, are youse guys telling me there's more to banjo than:  a) "There's 2 keys... G and not-G" and b) the open G chord is a feebie?   

---

It's no joke... the thing that's put me off from making progress on the banjo is that the entire banjo world seems fixated on the same set of old time tunes. It's as if there's an unspoken rule that you're not allowed to play anything other than what everyone else already plays.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 01/04/2026:  10:48:38

Robert, you can of course tune it and play it however you wish, but why bother? Do you want it to sound like a not so good mandolin, tenor banjo, or ukelele? I would assume that if interested in 5-string banjo then you would want to sound like a 5-string banjo, and if you want to sound like a 5-string banjo you will need to tune it and play it like a 5-string banjo! Give the traditional ways a solid try before doing what nobody else is doing and you will probably soon discover why nobody else is doing that.

rkdjones - Posted - 01/04/2026:  13:36:35

Again, thanks for all the comments.

I agree that the 5-string played clawhammer style has a very interesting sound, both melodic and rhythmic. I think it is more a function of the style of play, clawhammer, than the inherent characteristics of the instrument. A tenor banjo is very close to a 5-string when tuned and played in a similar fashion. I haven't yet been able to make an ukulele sound good in a clawhammer style, but that is just me.

I disagree that the 5-string is not a western instrument. It fits into all the musical theory and traditions of western music. I second Mickey's point about it being restricted to the OT genre. I'm no Bella Fleck but I am looking for my own sound, something that is within my reach, pleases my ear, and maybe works in a jam. It's always easier if I don't need to reinvent the wheel.

I'm not giving up entirely on DGBE. I'll look around some more to see if I can find arrangements for that tuning.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/04/2026:  16:29:59

FWIW, I use mostly standard C and open G. Less commonly, Double-C and open D. For certain tunes: f#BEAD (Cumberland Gap), Gm,f#DDAD, open C. Rarely do I venture beyond these 8…. Saying, as I did, that clawhammer is not particularly a chordal style, does not mean you shouldn’t know chords or know your way around the neck. Watch videos of Walt Koken to see what I mean.

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/04/2026:  23:22:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Saying, as I did, that clawhammer is not particularly a chordal style, does not mean you shouldn’t know chords or know your way around the neck. 

---

I'm working up a repertoire of simple frailed/strummed songs in the vein of a Bob Dylanish style (no harmonica though) for an one-day-but-still-far-off solo project - both Sawmill and Double-C seem to work well for this. I also find this more pleasing on a non-standard banjo: sounds great on my Pohlmann banjola, for example. 

Maybe @rkdjones should explore alternative 5-strings - Gold Tone's Dojo, or a banjola, or an electric banjo?

pinenut - Posted - 01/05/2026:  21:24:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

I disagree that the 5-string is not a western instrument. It fits into all the musical theory and traditions of western music.

---

It's well documented, and not an opinion, that the five string banjo is derived from the African Akonting.  Because, flagrantly ignoring chords, stroke style and history. 

It would make sense and be easier to play if we shifted it to a different tuning and supported it with tab/literature. It's been this way with small changes for about a hundred years; sigh.   

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akonting

Edited by - pinenut on 01/05/2026 21:40:16

pinenut - Posted - 01/05/2026:  22:02:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

FWIW, I use mostly standard C and open G. Less commonly, Double-C and open D. For certain tunes: f#BEAD (Cumberland Gap), Gm,f#DDAD, open C. Rarely do I venture beyond these 8…. Saying, as I did, that clawhammer is not particularly a chordal style, does not mean you shouldn’t know chords or know your way around the neck. Watch videos of Walt Koken to see what I mean.

---

Hi Bill,  I am at an inflection point and value your input.

If you were starting from an earlier point and received a do-over:

  - What tunings would you select and focus on before adding more?

  - Would it be prudent to trim the tunings learned down to, say, two?  What should they be?

  - Would you choose a chordal approach as primary or follow a less chordal path?

  - Up, down picking or a combination as the primary play style?

Edited by - pinenut on 01/05/2026 22:09:08

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/05/2026:  23:35:16

Well, Kam, After many years, including a serious (and unsuccessful) whack at bluegrass, I landed where I’d started, with the two tunings I would suggest starting with, in reverse order from the old (yellow) Seeger book that was my starting point. So G, and standard C. I would learn to play with chords, but not normally play that way because I can’t sing. Could l sing well, it would be different. I would add tunings as needed for whatever tunes called for them. For the right hand, I’d o with clawhammer, which is what I learned as soon as it was clear to me that for playing with drive was a lot better with down-picking. [Scruggs style is a different issue.] A lot of this has to do with what I do with the banjo, which is play fiddle tunes. I would obviously make more use of specialized tunings if I were playing much of the high-lonesome modal tune repertoire. But I’d still start with G tuning followed by C. Walt Koken, as fine an old-time player as we’ve seen, uses G and standard C tunings for almost all of his playing—and he plays everything. [Finally I note that I began playing and set my course before the Round Peak influence pervaded old-time banjo playing. So emulating Round Peak playing has never been a goal for me.] Feel free to ask for more clarity or elaboration on my comments; I hope they are of some use.
@pinenut

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/05/2026:  23:45:14

Interestingly, this video popped up a couple of days ago. In between verses, he's doing lots of fancy clawhammer tricks. But when he starts singing, he switches pretty much to strumming chords. Works great, sounds great.

banjohangout.org/topic/406724

youtube.com/watch?v=y31CG79w0AQ

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/05/2026:  23:51:23

FWIW, I started out with G (I started playing with the Pearlman book), but never took to it. It was only when I discovered Sawmill that the banjo suddenly opened up to me. And Sawmill was enough for me for years (I don't play OT, which helps).

These days, as I'm trying to improve my technique, I'm working with DoubleC (I believe that's also called Standard C? ), which is Sawmill's older, more handsome brother.

I imagine I'll get around to playing G tunes (I'm signed on to Tom Collins' Banjo Quest) before long. But I have no desire to learn dozens of tunings. Like I said, I'm not trying to build an OT repertoire, just using these tunes to build technique. Your mileage will differ.

pinenut - Posted - 01/06/2026:  11:44:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Well, Kam,

After many years, including a serious (and unsuccessful) whack at bluegrass, I landed where I’d started, with the two tunings I would suggest starting with, in reverse order from the old (yellow) Seeger book that was my starting point.  Similar.  The Seeger book did not work well for me; Perlman, Kohler and Jumper have been my consistent entry points.  I’ve had several experiences with paid instruction; they had the same or a little less usefulness, at a much greater cost, than a so-so instructional book.

So G, and standard C. I would learn to play with chords, but not normally play that way because I can’t sing. Could l sing well, it would be different.  Same.  I figure the instrument should sing for me most of the time.  I do sing along because the melody doesn’t develop properly and tends to drift without me singing along in some fashion.  There is a lot of tab and video available that display this common issue; sometimes it is difficult to find a legitimate arrangement.  An ability to fluently read the written notation may solve this issue?

I would add tunings as needed for whatever tunes called for them. For the right hand, I’d do with clawhammer, which is what I learned as soon as it was clear to me that for playing with drive was a lot better with down-picking. [Scruggs style is a different issue.]  Same.  Clawhammer is a reliable ‘good fit’ for me.  Recently, I have started transposing between known clawhammer tunes and some 3-finger thing that my hand is willing to participate in (mixed lead pre-Scruggs, source unknown); it seems to be helping with aural skills and fingerboard mapping. I’d love to find reliable written support for what my right hand is doing, but, it’s not big picture important.

A lot of this has to do with what I do with the banjo, which is play fiddle tunes.   Same.  I consistently select fiddle tunes and camp songs.

I would obviously make more use of specialized tunings if I were playing much of the high-lonesome modal tune repertoire.  Same.  I am unaware of a substitute for ~sawmill.

 

 

But I’d still start with G tuning followed by C.  Similar.  Started with G and sawmill and am working with double-C.  I have been questioning my current path for some time…  Books and video have been a poor resource for durable progress and useful/steady human interaction has not presented; I use the resources that I can get.

Standard-C throws a caution flag because the time investment of learning notation is going to be, at a minimum for me, a two-year endeavor and carries a penalty of stagnating forward progress of the other skills plus losses due to a lack of maintenance. 

And, after learning to read music, with fluency, arranging and learning the tune for play appears to be more time consuming than filtering through several so-so arrangements in tablature. 

And, the quality of the arrangement is going to be more dependent on my skills…  uh-oh. 

These things may be self-resolving; I have not observed a historical precedent for that.  Where is the missing link/trick?  Or, what is my blind?

I struggle with this because standard-C appears to be the most versatile tuning and could potentially cover all the common fiddle keys/tunes.  One tuning for all with a color pallet penalty.  At this point, that seems like a fair trade (if not for the written notation handicap). 

How does a person deal with the massive written support for double-C vs. musical notation only support for standard-C?  

 

 

Walt Koken, as fine an old-time player as we’ve seen, uses G and standard C tunings for almost all of his playing—and he plays everything.  Same.  He’s a good player, very confident style.

Finally, I note that I began playing and set my course before the Round Peak influence pervaded old-time banjo playing. So emulating Round Peak playing has never been a goal for me.  Same.  Round Peak is great, but, it’s not an end to itself, so much, as it’s another tool in the shed.

Feel free to ask for more clarity or elaboration on my comments; I hope they are of some use.

Thank you.  I have been struggling with direction; this is very helpful. 

Best, Kam.

---

Edited by - pinenut on 01/06/2026 11:46:47

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/06/2026:  11:45:38

Tuning nomenclature:

Standard C (aka Drop C) : gCGBD;

Double C: gCGCD;

Open C: gCGCE

@Mickhammer

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/06/2026:  12:01:05

Forgot to note: I read neither tab nor music notation, though I may dig out a couple of notes here or there. My learning tunes has been by ear and observation.

@pinenut

pinenut - Posted - 01/06/2026:  12:52:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Forgot to note: I read neither tab nor music notation, though I may dig out a couple of notes here or there. My learning tunes has been by ear and observation.



@pinenut

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Bill,  How did you manage/happen to learn to play only by ear and eye?

Edited by - pinenut on 01/06/2026 12:53:26

Bill Rogers - Posted - 01/06/2026:  14:40:01

Partly being too lazy to learn reading either tab or music. Once I got started, I learned what notes went together and would learn new tunes by starting with notes and phrases they had in common with tunes I knew. After a while you develop an ear for finding your way through new tunes. And sometimes you stumble on something by dumb luck. I have a decent ear, not a great one—but enough to get by.

banjoboyd - Posted - 01/08/2026:  09:08:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

I disagree that the 5-string is not a western instrument. It fits into all the musical theory and traditions of western music.

---

It's well documented, and not an opinion, that the five string banjo is derived from the African Akonting.  Because, flagrantly ignoring chords, stroke style and history. 

It would make sense and be easier to play if we shifted it to a different tuning and supported it with tab/literature. It's been this way with small changes for about a hundred years; sigh.   

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akonting

 

---

Kam -- not to get off-topic, but there are plenty of "Western" instruments with non-Western roots, if we trace things back far enough. The guitar, for one example. Such is the nature of cultural exchange, imitation, appropriation. So the banjo is not unique in that regard.

It's more accurate to say that the modern-day banjo and modern-day akonting (because non-Western musical traditions likewise change over time) are distant cousins, not that the former "derives" from the latter. 

The earliest published banjo music from the 1850s onward is very much Western/tonal/chordal in structure despite being played with a downstroke technique. And on the folk side, the practice of using a variety of tunings -- sometimes specific tunings for specific songs -- appears to be homegrown. That's not a major component of akonting playing as it stands today. Some of the droning/non-chordal aspects of old-time music are likely of Scandinavian/Anglo-Scots-Irish origin rather than West African. 

Edited by - banjoboyd on 01/08/2026 09:21:25

pinenut - Posted - 01/08/2026:  09:38:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoboyd

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

quote:

---

Originally posted by rkdjones

I disagree that the 5-string is not a western instrument. It fits into all the musical theory and traditions of western music.

---

It's well documented, and not an opinion, that the modern five string banjo is recently derived from an African instrument.  Flagrantly ignoring chords and stroke style are not very western. 

It would make sense and be easier to play if we shifted it to a more western tuning and supported it with tab/literature.  It is what it is.

---

Kam -- not to get off-topic, but there are plenty of "Western" instruments with non-Western roots, if we trace things back far enough. The guitar, for one example. Such is the nature of cultural exchange, imitation, appropriation. So the banjo is not unique in that regard.

The earliest published banjo music from the 1850s onward is very much Western/tonal/chordal in structure despite being played with a downstroke technique. And on the folk side, the practice of using a variety of tunings -- sometimes specific tunings for specific songs -- appears to be homegrown. That's not a major component of akonting playing as it stands today. Some of the droning/non-chordal aspects of old-time music are likely of Scandinavian/Anglo-Scots-Irish origin rather than West African. 

---

Seriously Ethan,  Re-entrant tuning is not intuitive; this is part of what the OP is questioning.  I argue in favor of embracing the banjo as it is and not as I wish it was; this is the instrument that speaks to me.

We all come to terms with some inconsistencies in order to become close friends with the 5-string banjo.  Some don't realize that it happened, others do and some are still struggling.

Edited by - pinenut on 01/08/2026 09:45:06

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/08/2026:  10:26:26

I'm not sure how anyone can argue that the banjo did not evolve from African instruments. It's self-evident. And should be something that's celebrated. Of course, modern banjo music has undergone a major transformation, with plenty of other influences. That's great too.

I came across Otis Taylor when I first started playing, he was a big part of my understanding of the potential of banjo as a trance instrument, which no doubt brings it back to its African roots.

banjoboyd - Posted - 01/08/2026:  11:44:07

Kam, re-entrant tuning is not unique to the banjo. The baroque guitar and theorbo had it. The ukulele, cuatro, and vihuela (all of Spanish/Portugeuse origin) have it.

Organologically, the banjo's high thumb string is 100% of African origin. But the "flagrantly ignoring chords" and use of various tunings we observe in old-time banjo playing are most likely not; at least not exclusively. Nor are those things somehow inherent to the design of the instrument. These are things American folk musicians figured out they could do with an existing instrument that was developed with rather different music in mind. And that's a wonderful thing. 

banjoboyd - Posted - 01/08/2026:  12:48:58

Mickey, no one is suggesting that the banjo doesn't have African roots.* The problem is teasing apart which aspects derive from where. Kam is suggesting that the practice of "ignoring chords" is non-Western, and by automatic extension, African. I am saying that neither of these things are necessarily true. Tons of Scandinavian/European/British folk music is not chordal (and where it is chordal, it is often a 20th-century innovation). The use of stroke-style technique (which most definitely is of African origin) does not change this. 

*(So are we suggesting that something being trance-y makes it African? Is traditional akonting performance "trance" music? Is it perhaps possible we are treating cultural  assumptions/generalizations as "self-evident"?)

Edited by - banjoboyd on 01/08/2026 12:50:03

pinenut - Posted - 01/08/2026:  13:44:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoboyd

Kam, re-entrant tuning is not unique to the banjo.   This is true and unrelated to my opinionated comment, "Re-entrant tuning is not intuitive; this is part of what the OP is questioning...".

Organologically, the banjo's high thumb string is 100% of African origin. But the "flagrantly ignoring chords" and use of various tunings we observe in old-time banjo playing are most likely not; at least not exclusively. Nor are those things somehow inherent to the design of the instrument.  Complete chords are very limited with the two strings and a drone that banjos started with. 

These are things "American" folk musicians figured out they could do with an existing instrument that was developed with rather different music in mind. And that's a wonderful thing.  True.  

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Edited by - pinenut on 01/08/2026 13:54:39

Mickhammer - Posted - 01/08/2026:  14:21:42

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoboyd

*(So are we suggesting that something being trance-y makes it African? Is traditional akonting performance "trance" music? Is it perhaps possible we are treating cultural  assumptions/generalizations as "self-evident"?)

---

Lots of cultures use music to induce a trance-like state, of course. But the cultures that were kidnapped and brought over to the Americas as slaves, influencing the origins of the modern banjo (and most music in the States) happened to have come primarily from Africa. That's not assumption, just history.