pinenut - Posted - 12/14/2025:  17:33:13

So, at a bluegrass jam; I call Shady Grove, from the tune list, in G/A modal. 

The term 'modal' appears to be foreign to the whole group.  

How do I explain this?  Is my best response to just say, "Yup, G/A minor."?

Spartysam - Posted - 12/14/2025:  17:37:32

Great question. Thought that I would ask ChatGPT this question. Attached is the answer that I got - hope that it helps.

In banjo playing, the term "modal" primarily refers to a specific tuning (G Modal or "Sawmill" tuning) and a style of music that uses scales other than the standard major or minor, creating a distinctive, often haunting, "mountain minor" sound associated with Appalachian old-time music.
Modal Tuning (G Modal/Sawmill)

The most common "modal" context for banjo players is the use of the G modal tuning, also known as Sawmill or Mountain Minor tuning (gDGCD).

Tuning adjustment: This tuning is achieved by taking the standard Open G tuning (gDGBD) and raising the 2nd string (B) a half step to a C note.
Resulting sound: This small change eliminates the third of the G major chord, creating a suspended 4th sound (G sus 4). This ambiguity between major and minor gives the tuning its characteristic "modal" or "eerie" quality.

Common tunes: It is a very popular tuning for traditional old-time songs such as "Shady Grove," "Cluck Old Hen," "Little Sadie," and "Pretty Polly".

Modal Music Theory

From a music theory perspective, "modal" music:
Uses specific scales: It draws from the "church modes" (such as Dorian or Mixolydian), which are different arrangements of intervals than the common major (Ionian) or natural minor (Aeolian) scales.

Avoids functional harmony: Unlike much Western music, which uses strong, "functional" chord progressions (like a V-I resolution) to establish a clear key center, modal music often uses a limited number of chords or vamps (sometimes just one) to support the melody. The melody itself defines the mode or key center.

Creates a drone effect: The open, sustained strings of the banjo in modal tuning often create a droning sound against the melody, which is characteristic of this style.

In short, "modal" playing on the banjo involves specific tunings that facilitate playing music based on these non-major/minor scales, evoking the unique, ancient sound of traditional folk music.

Owen - Posted - 12/14/2025:  17:39:13

Tongue-in-cheek, though I've heard the term,  I'd have fit right in with the "appears to be foreign" group, so as a participant I'd just go with, "...this too shall pass." 

Edited by - Owen on 12/14/2025 17:49:00

pinenut - Posted - 12/14/2025:  17:52:39

@Spartysam  that's the thing, the explanation is long and bumps up against the western music philosophy that is thin veneer on a banjo and is an initial design element of the other instruments.

Specifically, it's how traditional banjo play supports adjusting the tuning to the tune and noting the strings, as compared to adjusting a singular tuning with chords to the tune and playing the notes (general philosophy of western instruments).  @Bill Rogers

Edited by - pinenut on 12/14/2025 18:09:40

pinenut - Posted - 12/14/2025:  17:54:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

Tongue-in-cheek, though I've heard the term,  I'd have fit right in with the "appears to be foreign" group, so as a participant I'd just go with, "...this too shall pass." 

---

Owen, you'd a thought i grew a second head, from the looks I got, when I said 'modal' this afternoon. 

I don't want another head, this one comes with enough problems.

Edited by - pinenut on 12/14/2025 17:57:39

Tractor1 - Posted - 12/14/2025:  18:27:23

my view though not proclaimed as correct --those tunes that have flatted thirds but the - mood of a minor chord changes the feel of the melody ''too much''--usually a simple combination of root and 5 and octaves of the root and 5 --works for me
modes from the middle ages have morphed on-- to kinda help name these scales that have gotten to be mainstays in certain genres over the years--but don't look for much theory on using modes to build chords for fiddle tunes
my opinion I ask no agreement
too big of a mouth full to take to a bluegrass jam for sure

Will Frady - Posted - 12/14/2025:  18:50:01

I love to hear the Johnson Mountain Boys do T for Texas. I really like hear Dudley modal , I mean yodel at the end of the verses . lol modal? I would be like a neanderthal . I really need to lean music another way than by ear.

KCJones - Posted - 12/14/2025:  19:25:13

It's strange to me that a bluegrass jam wouldn't be familiar with modal tuning. Clinch Mountain Backstep? Shady Grove? Sweet Sunny South? Kitchen Girl? Little Sadie? Click Old Hen? Walking Boss? Cold Frosty Morn? Pretty Polly? And that's just a tiny selection.

I know it's more commonly a old-time/fiddle tune tuning and not specifically bluegrass, but a lot of them are common bluegrass songs, and it seems to me anyone that's played/heard bluegrass for any amount of time has to have heard a few of these songs.

In any case, I'd tell them it's like G/A but with the 3rd interval raised a half-step, and there's some funky F/G-licks in it. Maybe play through the progression once or twice, most modal songs are very simple without a lot of chord changes so you can pick them up pretty quick.

LyleK - Posted - 12/14/2025:  20:12:23

Shady Grove, as played by fiddlers, is usually in A Dorian ("sawmill" or "mountain minor") mode, not G Dorian. Ionian mode (aka, major) for the key of A has three sharps (F#, C#, and G#). Mixolydian gets rid of one sharp (so, two sharps being F# and C#). Dorian gets rid of another sharp (so, just F#). Aeolian (aka, minor) in the key of A has no sharps or flats.

Your bluegrass friends should be familiar with "Little Maggie."  It is "modal" (specifically, Mixolydian).  It is usually in G or capoed to A or even higher depending on vocal range.

Mickhammer - Posted - 12/14/2025:  23:19:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by LyleK

 It is "modal" (specifically, Mixolydian).  

---

My understanding is that, in the guitar world at ;east,  "modal" refers to a scale that begins on a note other than the root. Each mode has its own character.

But when I say "modal" referring to the style of banjo I usually play, I mean "trance music". Sawmill is the best trance tuning I've found so far. Double C is pretty good, but gets a little bluesy.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 12/15/2025:  00:07:23

What I read was that with G Modal the tuning is unresolved so it's not either major or minor and it is this that gives it the distinct feel.

janolov - Posted - 12/15/2025:  00:35:58

Even if it not quite appropriate I use to explain modal song/tune, that they have two kind of tonal centers. For example what we call G Dorian has G as root and is based on the F major scale. G Mixolydian has G as root and is based on C major scale.

Edited by - janolov on 12/15/2025 00:36:25

janolov - Posted - 12/15/2025:  02:52:15

Also read this thread: banjohangout.org/topic/287412

Ziradog - Posted - 12/15/2025:  05:10:47

"...raising the 2nd string (B) a half step to a C note."

In our house, a C note is refered to as 0.1 Boat Bucks.

Zachary Hoyt - Posted - 12/15/2025:  07:58:34

If anyone asked me I would say that modal is a modality, but luckily no one has asked me for a long time.

LyleK - Posted - 12/15/2025:  08:10:49

Jan Olov did well to point to the thread banjohangout.org/topic/287412

There is also a "sticky" (permanent) thread at: banjohangout.org/topic/389423

This is well-trodden territory, and it usually seems to boil down to those with a music theory background and those who find the theory tedious and of no use.  Bluegrass banjo players can play "Run Mountain" (a very popular bluegrass song, listen to the original 1949 recording and watch the 1960 video) perfectly well without having to know that it is in G Lydian, one of the seven modes.  The banjo would just use standard gDGBD tuning and play the darn thing.  Likewise, it might just be best to tell your bluegrass friends that Shady Grove is in the key of G, tell them that they'll be using F chords, and leave it at that.  That is assuming that there are no fiddlers or mandolin players present who will want it in A (Dorian)

In the O-T world, this business of modes can have consequences.  The current TOTW (Sally in the Garden) is listed as being in D minor.  It is not.  It is in A Dorian.

Now for the "very" quick music theory lesson.  A scale is just a series of notes that leads to the octave interval.  In standard G tuning the third string is tuned to a wavelength of 392 Hz and the octave (5th string) is twice the wavelength (784).  A scale is a progression of notes that spans the octave.  We are used to a seven note scale, but there are also pentatonic scales, and chromatic scales.  The modes come from only using whte keys on a piano but spanning the octave from different starting notes.  Starting from C and using only white keys gives you Ionian (major), from D with only white keys is Dorian, E is Phrygian, F is Lydian, G is Mixolydian, A is Aeolian (natural minor), and B is Locrian.  Life gets more complicated when you maintain the pattern of full and half steps but start at a different white key.  So, for A Aeolian you start on A but still use only white keys.  For A Dorian you start on A and play only white keys, with the exception of F# which is a black key.

jack_beuthin - Posted - 12/15/2025:  08:34:01

A beginners bluegrass jam I have attended locally references everything to the 1-4-5 chord structure. So, if someone calls a song/tune in A (A major assumed), they say ‘the chords are A, D, and E’. For anything other than this, they simply say 'there are other chords’, then they name the chords. They dodge the mode terminal altogether, which perhaps is a wise thing for a beginners jam. Or let's say something in G had a 2 chord in it. The just say, ‘there is also an A chord’, and the jam leader (a guitar player) will usually call the chord when it comes around the first time.



Different banjo tunings can facilitate playing in different modes, but banjo tunings themselves are not modes. The Double C tuning is a “multi-modal” tuning that works perfectly fine for playing the Ionian (major), Mixolydian, Dorian and Aeolian (minor) modes in the Key of C. Here’s a demo:



youtu.be/CzyAL_STtDs?si=1iQWTpqpYm1PB3ji



And here is an explanation of why Double C is "modally versatile":

youtu.be/ZozqXWiy_lU?si=7MyNyKxAJ4n-cc2N

Owen - Posted - 12/15/2025:  09:13:25

Modal?? 

Almost all I hear about it comes from a TV ad for Manmade underwear.  manmadebrand.com/ 

But, sadly he/they don't explain it, either.... I'm eternally grateful that we have "look it up."  

Edited by - Owen on 12/15/2025 09:14:07

Tractor1 - Posted - 12/15/2025:  09:14:28

modes were mankinds earlier attempts at identifying/ playing scales that matched up to the moods that musical sounds created----not much google is needed to show how all eight can easily be found on the white keys of the piano--

Their use dwindled behind the streamlined use of the two scales '' most used ''today

Fiddle tunes in certain genres developed a tradition of 2 chord stuff --the key chord and the other chord built on the chord a full step down--they might vary at being major or minor--these ended up closer to the older modes -- doing so,by  using scales that fit modes that were not the usual major/minor--since these tunes-- got so numerous --they started getting mentioned a lot--the same music can be written in the standard system btw --

Jazz guys wax and wane about modes--but I am ignorant on that knowledge--

As far as among the stringband masses --a read up thru this forum shows how "modal" gets different interpretations depending on where it was -- picked up--

But yes we all like dropping down from D to C etc.

As i said above I just give the term "modal' to certain tunes that have flatted thirds but get sweetened too much --with use of--a minor chord harmony--I have always liked to ==simply  use the chord.. that in recent times --has got to be known as a power chord

Edited by - Tractor1 on 12/15/2025 09:21:28

pinenut - Posted - 12/15/2025:  10:27:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by jack_beuthin

A beginners bluegrass jam I have attended locally references everything to the 1-4-5 chord structure. So, if someone calls a song/tune in A (A major assumed), they say ‘the chords are A, D, and E’. For anything other than this, they simply say 'there are other chords’, then they name the chords. They dodge the mode terminal altogether, which perhaps is a wise thing for a beginners jam.  

---

Sigh, that will work with this group. 

I'll look up the Nashville numbering system chords next time and probably need to carry a circle of fifths with me too.  

Edited by - pinenut on 12/15/2025 10:29:01

250gibson - Posted - 12/15/2025:  11:13:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by pinenut

So, at a bluegrass jam; I call Shady Grove, from the tune list, in G/A modal. 

The term 'modal' appears to be foreign to the whole group.  

 

How do I explain this?  Is my best response to just say, "Yup, G/A minor."?

---

G/A modal doesn't really mean anything as that is not a key or mode.  This tune is  based in Dorian and usually just referred to as the minor version (There is another popular version of this tune which is major).  Dorian is one of the minor modes as it features a minor third interval.  Calling it Minor instead of Dorian works in Bluegrass/oldtime as these genres really don't harmonize with extended chords so they don't have to be aware of which version of the 6th they play (Dorian's 6th is a 1/2 step higher then aeolian/natural minor).  In other genres where extended harmonizations are more popular you want to be sure the Dorian distinction is known so no one hits a dissonant 6th.  If the music is written, musicians will recognize it is Dorian and not natural minor as they will see sharp 6ths in the written music. 

Lew H - Posted - 12/15/2025:  11:30:45

What jack_beuthin said.  Many of the responses here don't tell you how to explain how they should accompany a tune in A modal tuning.   Bluegrassers know major from minor, but "modal" tuning cane be accompanied by one or the other. Clinch Mountain Backstop is played in A major in bluegrass, but Shady Grove will be in A minor (assuming it's not the bluegrass versioin of the song in A major). You must tell them what chords to play. If you don't know the chords for accompaniment, look them up. There are simpler and complexer arrangements. They need to usderstand whether they will accompany you in major or minor.



If you want to explain A modal tuning to the jammers, tell them it is an A chord with the B string raised one fret to C --which is the root note of the 4 chord. Technically an A suspended 4 chord.



Bluegrass banjo pickers will use some alternative tunings to open G. These include drop C, and the D tuning used both for 900 Miles in old time, whch is Ruben's Train in bluegrass.  

Edited by - Lew H on 12/15/2025 11:36:22

Nopix - Posted - 12/15/2025:  12:15:18

mandolincafe.net/archives/niles



Hope this works. Big can of worms.

If I were calling Shady Grove in a jam, I'd just declare the two chords. (Em, and D for me)

Edited by - Nopix on 12/15/2025 12:23:16

writerrad - Posted - 12/15/2025:  12:20:25

All tunes are played in a modal way. The standard scale and harmonies are one particular mode. Formally, the standard unadulturated scale is called the Ionian Mode.



Thousands of years ago the Ancient Greeks established names for different sets of 8 note intervals like scales, and the names were attached to them based on the cities or regions of Greece whoever thought the particular mode was identified with.



This is complicated insofar as some Bluegrasser like that fellow named Bill Montroe, do play Shady Grove in what in the standard scalular  way, actually in the Ionian mode.   Many Bluegrass people play Shady Grove with the same tune that Lew (whom I know) has heard me play "Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss" in because a fellow named Bill Monroe and his band played and recorded it that way on several occasions rather than in the more modal way.



The most modal way I guess one could play Shady Grove might be to retune the banjo as Lew suggests because you get that C note (or if you are up in A as you all seem to be discussing, a D note)



You might retune the banjo from DBGDg or EC#AEa to DCGDg or EDAEa. That would be in a tuning some call Sawmill and some call Mountain Modal.



I used to do that, but I find it more expressive to remain in the standard DBGDg or EC#AEa and put in the modal notes by hammer ons and pull offs. Especially in a bluegrass context you  get that C note and the F notes in there by hammer ons and pull offs contrasting with theB and the G.   Then some old time music purists would not let you use A minor or even C in yur backup on guitar for this if you are playing in G.  



This works exceptionally well if the tune is one of the tunes adopted like "Kitchen Girl" that wander back and forth between the "mode" that includes the C natural note and G in A in different areas of the tune,.



On the other hand you can go whole hog in the way that many of the original old time banjoists did Black and white who played Coo Coo Bird with the banjo permanently in the Sawmill Tuning DCGDg or EDAEa. It is a matter of taste and inclination. Though I know you know this Lew, I will play one of these tunes to illustrate this which I am sure you know on Friday (Lew and I participate a zoom jam each friday.)



Lew BTW is a great and entertaining banjoist who has many wonderful things online both here on banjo hangout that will make clunky banjoists like me wish we worked at music more!







But one can also tune the Banjo to DCGDg for G or EDAEa for A.

Edited by - writerrad on 12/15/2025 12:38:46

jenorma1 - Posted - 12/15/2025:  18:39:01

I did a blog-post on diatonic modes in old time music (back when I was writing a banjo blog...):

jeffnormanbanjo.com/weekly-ban...ime-music

Here's a snippet at the end relevant to this discussion:

So, what do people mean when they say "this next one is a modal tune?"



In my experience this can mean a couple different things:



The most obvious (and arguably correct) definition would be that any tune outside of the normal Major or Minor keys is called a "modal" tune. This alerts everyone involved to look for something funny (weird notes/chords) if they don't know the tune. This would catch any strictly-mixolydian, strictly-dorian, or mode-switching tunes, regardless of what tuning these are played in.



However, some people also the term "modal" to refer to any tune played in "modal" (aka sawmill; gDGCD/aEADE) tuning. This definition is a little problematic. First off, natural A minor (Aeolian) tunes would be played in "modal" tuning and I even play a few major/Ionian tunes in this tuning simply out of ease-of-fingering concerns. Also, mixolydian and/or dorian tunes played in double C/D (gCGCD/aDADE) are not captured under this definition of "modal."



In other words, "modal" means different things to different people - I guess the best thing to do is open your ears extra wide when someone tells you a "modal tune" is coming at a jam : )

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 12/15/2025:  22:54:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lew H

What jack_beuthin said.  Many of the responses here don't tell you how to explain how they should accompany a tune in A modal tuning.   Bluegrassers know major from minor, but "modal" tuning cane be accompanied by one or the other. Clinch Mountain Backstop is played in A major in bluegrass, but Shady Grove will be in A minor (assuming it's not the bluegrass versioin of the song in A major). You must tell them what chords to play. If you don't know the chords for accompaniment, look them up. There are simpler and complexer arrangements. They need to usderstand whether they will accompany you in major or minor.



If you want to explain A modal tuning to the jammers, tell them it is an A chord with the B string raised one fret to C --which is the root note of the 4 chord. Technically an A suspended 4 chord.



Bluegrass banjo pickers will use some alternative tunings to open G. These include drop C, and the D tuning used both for 900 Miles in old time, whch is Ruben's Train in bluegrass.  

---

I agree Lew, the chords accompanying the tune are the critical element in the treatment of a modal tune. Except that I would rather not hear the third at all (major or minor), over the root chord anyway. Just playing root five keeps that floaty, ambiguous sound which is what we all love about modal tunes.

Lew H - Posted - 12/16/2025:  06:06:39

Laurence Diehl I like it either way. In my own playing in sawmill tuning, I have grown into the habit of holding down the second string on the second fret making it a root 5 pattern (power chord?) aEAEE. This works great for the oldtime tunes or for a lot of blues songs. I fake minor chords on dobro tuned in open G in a similar way.

banjoboyd - Posted - 12/16/2025:  06:57:08

I dislike the term/categorization because (as Tony rightfully points out) all tunes/songs are modal i.e. in a particular musical mode. In practice, it seems to mean "everything but major or minor," which winds up conflating 1. tunes in true dorian, lydian, mixolydian, or aeolian, 2. tunes that are pentatonic/hexatonic or that have some other gapped scale, and 3. tunes that are modally "in-between/ambiguous" via a slippery/bluesy 3rd or other device. 

Then to make matters worse, banjo players speak of "modal tunings," which seems to be shorthand for "tunings commonly used to play 'modal' tunes." But of course, you can play "modal" tunes in any tuning, and vice versa, major/minor tunes in "modal" tunings. 

Lew H - Posted - 12/16/2025:  08:35:43

What Lew H said wrong: " If you want to explain A modal tuning to the jammers, tell them it is an A chord with the B string raised one fret to C --which is the root note of the 4 chord. Technically an A suspended 4 chord".

Capoed to A, the B string would be D flat. It is raised to D.

Eric A - Posted - 12/18/2025:  06:36:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

It's strange to me that a bluegrass jam wouldn't be familiar with modal tuning. Clinch Mountain Backstep? Shady Grove? Sweet Sunny South? Kitchen Girl? Little Sadie? Click Old Hen? Walking Boss? Cold Frosty Morn? Pretty Polly? And that's just a tiny selection.



I know it's more commonly a old-time/fiddle tune tuning and not specifically bluegrass, but a lot of them are common bluegrass songs, and it seems to me anyone that's played/heard bluegrass for any amount of time has to have heard a few of these songs.



In any case, I'd tell them it's like G/A but with the 3rd interval raised a half-step, and there's some funky F/G-licks in it. Maybe play through the progression once or twice, most modal songs are very simple without a lot of chord changes so you can pick them up pretty quick.

---

Several years ago on a thread about sawmill tunes, I said that Clinch Mountain Backstep was a sawmill tune, and people jumped on me.  Because performing or jamming bluegrass players don't want to take the time to retune their 2nd string, so they mostly just keep a finger planted on that first fret and play it.  Ralph didn't retune, blah, blah, blah, so no it's not sawmill.

I'll double down.  It's a sawmill tune whether they like it or not, or how they choose to play it.

Edited by - Eric A on 12/18/2025 06:38:50

Noah Cline - Posted - 12/18/2025:  07:33:30

I like to think anymore of mixolydian tunes as "major modal," and those that are more minor sounding but not fully minor, "minor modal," or just "modal" (Dorian).

When I've referred to mix tunes and get questioned, I usually say, if in A, it's A major (root) with a G thrown in, also E, or D, etc. June Apple is a good example. 

Kitchen Girl as mentioned is a good example of a tune that contains both mixolydian in the A part, and dorian in the B. 

I've heard versions of Greasy Coat where the accompanying guitarist is playing A minor, but a few instances where A major is played. I prefer minor myself, but some tunes just sound better where the minor root is played vs. major, but sometimes the switch can spice things up, or create dissonance. I tried once when at a jam where A mix and A modal/dorian tunes were being played back to back to remain in aEAC#E after trying to retune every time a switch was made, and trying to hold down the second string at the first fret wasn't quite enjoyable pertaining to the tunes I normally tune it up for, and a random C# note at the wrong time didn't help things, either. Another time when tuned to A, a modal tune was started before I had time to retune, and I just jumped in, and needless to say got an "eww" the first time a C# flew out of my open second string when playing a C natural on the third string (I wholeheartedly agreed, and retuned). 

Then again, some tunes just work out better on a fiddle and banjo without a guitar being involved where the tonal centers and chord progressions are left to one's interpretation. 

It's all subjective. Results may vary. 

Edited by - Noah Cline on 12/18/2025 07:39:15

pinenut - Posted - 12/18/2025:  07:51:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eric A

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

It's strange to me that a bluegrass jam wouldn't be familiar with modal tuning. Clinch Mountain Backstep? Shady Grove? Sweet Sunny South? Kitchen Girl? Little Sadie? Click Old Hen? Walking Boss? Cold Frosty Morn? Pretty Polly? And that's just a tiny selection.

---

Several years ago on a thread about sawmill tunes, I said that Clinch Mountain Backstep was a sawmill tune, and people jumped on me.  Because performing or jamming bluegrass players don't want to take the time to retune their 2nd string, so they mostly just keep a finger planted on that first fret and play it.  Ralph didn't retune, blah, blah, blah, so no it's not sawmill.

I'll double down.  It's a sawmill tune whether they like it or not, or how they choose to play it.

---

The jams I attend in Portland have a ratio of banjos to other instruments of about 1:10.  We have a banjo shortage and they tend to spoil me; I like it.

There is no squabbling about banjo tunings, because, I'd pretty much be squabbling with myself and I try not to do that, out loud...

Edited by - pinenut on 12/18/2025 07:55:19

writerrad - Posted - 12/18/2025:  09:27:20

Part of this is because we all misuse  the term  " modal.  All music is modal, and most music that we play is in the variety of modes that the ancient Greeks identified, although some is not.

A mode is  a particular set of intervals with 8 notes that spans a scale.  In that sense all music is modal.   The mode and modal approach can of course be applied to all music, although we have found there are places in the world where music is made in modes that have more than 8 intervals between tonics, and all sorts of other stuff the Greeks or folks here in the 1960s when I learned all this could not imagine. 

The 8 intervals we consider the standard scale is really  a mode the ancient Greeks identified 2 thousand or more years ago  as the "Ionian"  mode which they identified it with Greeks from what is now the Mediterranean coast of what is now Türkiye and islands nearby.

But all music is modal.  For whatever reason old time tunes that are in the particular mode that the Saw Mill tuning intervals have, is misidentified as being "modal" by most old time and Bluegrass musicians.  When people who make this misusue of the term  modal they really mean tunes like Shady Grove that are not quite major and not quite minor.

  That is what creates the confusion.  It is better to say that Shady Grove can be played in a way where in the key of G  besides the standard 8 notes of the  G scale (I pick up my Vega Tubaphone and play it in the G tuning) that the f natural,  bflat,  and c sharp are present, and I am playing the C natural note  more in harmony with the G chord.

The closest I can see to the way most of us play Shady Grove is to the Dorian Mode which is explained in more detail  than anyone needs to know here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_mode.

This with the proviso that some play it in the standard mode, the Ionian mode, like the great Bill Monroe does.,

From about 1963 when I started playing folk and old time music first on the guitar as a teenager, I would at times retune the Guitar B string up to C to approximate the Sawmill tuning to accompany or imitate people playing in that mode.  Clarence Ashley's various Sawmill tuned tunes were quite the rage among old time revivalists with guitars and banjos who wanted to be musicians back in the 1960s.  It seems unfortunate to me that contemporary old time revivalists do not look into such music by Ashley,  Dock Boggs.

You would think that now that many of us are older than Ashley or Boggs got to be, there would be a return to those old banjos tunes.  But all current old time revivalits seem to care about is wordless fiddle tunes, or rather playing tunes on the fiddle, not knowing they have great words to sing as well,

Edited by - writerrad on 12/18/2025 09:47:41

writerrad - Posted - 12/18/2025:  09:56:41

I was not aware that any banjoists who play the Clinch Mountain Backstep play it in the Sawmill Tuning.  My main connection with that tune is playing it in Bluegrass.  I respect Bluegrass too much to try to play bluegrass banjo and revert to the Guitar for that tune,

 I guess a banjoist whose main approach to music comes from contemporary old time banjo would play it in the Saw Mill tuning capoed up  or tuned up to A.  I have mainly played that tune as a Guitarist in bluegrass settings.  

However,  I always thought that the great Ralph Stanley played it out of standard G tuning capoed or tuned up to A, or at least on some of the older recordings more like B Flat.

I just tried to play it on the banjo, and I find it more comfortable to play it in regular G or regular A, noting the C and other non standard notes.  

Elucidate on that I am sure bluegrassers here can tell me how Ralph tuned for that masterpiece

pinenut - Posted - 12/18/2025:  10:15:17

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

I was not aware that any banjoists who play the Clinch Mountain Backstep play it in the Sawmill Tuning.  My main connection with that tune is playing it in Bluegrass.  I respect Bluegrass too much to try to play bluegrass banjo and revert to the Guitar for that tune,

 I guess a banjoist whose main approach to music comes from contemporary old time banjo would play it in the Saw Mill tuning capoed up  or tuned up to A.  I have mainly played that tune as a Guitarist in bluegrass settings.  

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This is one of the big philosophical differences between modern three-finger bluegrass and modern versions of older approaches to play.

Bluegrass players, for most part, tune to gDGBD and change the tuning with a chordal approach.  Thinking about getting the melody with chords.

Modern claw-hammer and up-picking, commonly, change the tuning of the instrument and play notes.  Thinking about the melody in a more direct fashion.

Edited by - pinenut on 12/18/2025 10:30:35

KCJones - Posted - 12/18/2025:  10:15:28

I mean, really, there's no effective difference between bringing the 2nd string up a half step, or just keeping it fretted at the first fret. The notes at the same either way. I tune the 2nd string up because it's easier and I like doing things the easy way.

RB3 - Posted - 12/18/2025:  10:22:31

In my neck of the woods, Clinch Mountain Backstep used to be a jam session requirement. It was always played in the key of A. I played it in standard G-tuning with a capo on the second fret. I've never encountered a banjo player who did it any other way.

Tractor1 - Posted - 12/18/2025:  10:37:46

If I can't find a good version on a G tuned neck -I have not completed my search

Tractor1 - Posted - 12/18/2025:  10:46:41

I always loved David Lindley's and John McQueen's takes more than Doctor'Ralph's original--may have been the back up don't know--not to dismiss Dr.Ralph as one of overall top dogs

Edited by - Tractor1 on 12/18/2025 10:52:39

Tractor1 - Posted - 12/18/2025:  10:56:21

the C or C sharp is a fact of importance in this discussion --sometimes

writerrad - Posted - 12/18/2025:  14:53:54

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

I mean, really, there's no effective difference between bringing the 2nd string up a half step, or just keeping it fretted at the first fret. The notes at the same either way. I tune the 2nd string up because it's easier and I like doing things the easy way.

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My take on that is it just depends on what you the individual player thinks is easier.  I was not aware tht Bluegrass players tuned the banjo up to C at all, though I have never played that tune on the banjo in a bluegrass context  In bluegrass I usually just play the guitar.  Though most people who play old time would probably immediately think of tuning up the banjo to C or D (if you are playing it in A), but very very few people who are old time play this tune.  LOL and if they do, they rarely get the little half in the rhythm for the backstep.

On the other hand playing similar tunes in an old time context,  I find you can get something playing sawmillish tunes by hammering on the C on a the B string.

Thanks

Edited by - writerrad on 12/18/2025 14:56:03

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 12/19/2025:  01:35:20

I agree that all tunes are modal, in that the Ionian mode uses the same scale as our standard major tunes, and the Aeolian mode uses the same scale as our familiar natural minor tunes. Some Celtic tunes use the Dorian mode and some Old Time tunes use the Mixolydian mode.
Interestingly, most of the standard bluegrass repertoire is in major rather than minor keys (apart from a few notable exceptions), but one of the most important notes to my mind is the flattened third (Bb in G major). Where would we be without those third fret G string pull-offs that tend to litter bluegrass playing?

LyleK - Posted - 12/20/2025:  14:53:44

quote:

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Originally posted by jack_beuthin

A beginners bluegrass jam I have attended locally references everything to the 1-4-5 chord structure. So, if someone calls a song/tune in A (A major assumed), they say ‘the chords are A, D, and E’. For anything other than this, they simply say 'there are other chords’, then they name the chords. They dodge the mode terminal altogether, which perhaps is a wise thing for a beginners jam. Or let's say something in G had a 2 chord in it. The just say, ‘there is also an A chord’, and the jam leader (a guitar player) will usually call the chord when it comes around the first time.

I very much agree, and find that I disagree with what I wrote earlier about the mode for Shady Grove being Dorian.  Unless you get "fancy" with passing chords there is only the root minor chord and the 7th major chord in Shady Grove.  So, for the bluegrass banjo players the root chord is G minor (assuming there are no fiddlers present) and the 7th major chord is F major.  If fiddlers are present all the banjos (whether old-time or bluegrass) should slap on a capo at the second fret.  With the bluegrass banjo players in gDGBD tuning the next problem is that the only minor chord they are likely to know is an E minor.  To get G minor they need to do a barre chord at the third fret and use that E minor chord form (p. 302 in Bill Evan's 2007 book, "Banjo for Dummies".  The F major chord they will know.

Tractor1 - Posted - 12/20/2025:  16:33:57

the grisman--garcia shady grove is my favorite ==i never gave a thought to S G's modes ----as a matter of fact--I never think of modes when studying a tune --I just look at them as one of these --old timey--or celtic---texas--bluegrass--and about a dozen little genres--some genre's play major scales-- some genres have their usual accidentals--
My way of of doing it--

writerrad - Posted - 12/20/2025:  18:02:08

quote:that is often because Ralph original version seems to be tuned up somewhere around B flat or A halfway there.  I used to have a wrong theory about pitching and banjos but it led me to spend a lot of time getting the exact pitching (that is the absolute pitch as opposed to the intervals between the notes in a tuning) of many bluegrass and old time tunes.  Ralph Stanley's original tune is somewhere around B flat.   

It is one of the great moments of modern music.

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Originally posted by Tractor1

If I can't find a good version on a G tuned neck -I have not completed my search

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writerrad - Posted - 12/20/2025:  18:14:04

quote:  A beginner;s bluegrass jam is hardly the reference point to judge how to play one of the great masterpieces of American music, Ralph Stanley's  Clinch Mountain Backstep, 

You have to watch Ralph's versions of it, with several live videos of it being available on YouTube.  The one I like the best being the one where the Stanley appear on Pete Seeger's program Rainbow Crest which can be found on YouTube by anyone who cares.

The person posting here trying to discuss  Shady Grove seems unaware that Bluegrass people play Shady Grove in several different ways.  One way that Bluegrass people play it is the way that a fellow named Bill Montroe recorded it and played it for years in his band.  Monroe used a tune that is usally used for Fly Around My Pretty Little Miss, entirely in the Ionian Mode.

A wide variety of old time banjoists, particularly those from Kentucky tend to play the tune in other modes.  Mostly Dorian.  

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Originally posted by LyleK

quote:

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Originally posted by jack_beuthin

A beginners bluegrass jam I have attended locally references everything to the 1-4-5 chord structure. So, if someone calls a song/tune in A (A major assumed), they say ‘the chords are A, D, and E’. For anything other than this, they simply say 'there are other chords’, then they name the chords. They dodge the mode terminal altogether, which perhaps is a wise thing for a beginners jam. Or let's say something in G had a 2 chord in it. The just say, ‘there is also an A chord’, and the jam leader (a guitar player) will usually call the chord when it comes around the first time.

I very much agree, and find that I disagree with what I wrote earlier about the mode for Shady Grove being Dorian.  Unless you get "fancy" with passing chords there is only the root minor chord and the 7th major chord in Shady Grove.  So, for the bluegrass banjo players the root chord is G minor (assuming there are no fiddlers present) and the 7th major chord is F major.  If fiddlers are present all the banjos (whether old-time or bluegrass) should slap on a capo at the second fret.  With the bluegrass banjo players in gDGBD tuning the next problem is that the only minor chord they are likely to know is an E minor.  To get G minor they need to do a barre chord at the third fret and use that E minor chord form (p. 302 in Bill Evan's 2007 book, "Banjo for Dummies".  The F major chord they will know.

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writerrad - Posted - 12/20/2025:  18:22:16

quote:Get a copy of any recording of the tune as played by Dr. Ralph Stanley.  Try to see what pitch he plays in.  Go find his recording of it.  See what Pitch he recorded it.   He is pitched higher than the standard A, somewhere close to B flat.,  On some recordings and I think the first one he is pitched all the way up to B flat.  Others he is is half-way between B flat and A.   At some point later he may have pitched in  A.   

There is no doubt he pitched he used the standard G tuning as opposed to the G or A or B flat Saw Mill version.  There are many different explanations for this pitching, one being that performers like the Stanleys and Flatt and Scruggs in the late 40s and early 50s just thought the instruments sounded better pitched off the standard pitches, generally pitched higher,   The Stanleys and Flatt and Scruggs and others of that period also thought tht it would be harder for others to copy their tunes if they were not in concert pitch.,

The point is not really what your neighborhood bluegrass Jam does or does not do.  The point is what did the Stanley Brothers do who essentially created this tune out of traditional components do.

All the notes are there in whatever tuning you use.   He does this in the regular G tuning, not Sawmill.

 

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Originally posted by RB3

In my neck of the woods, Clinch Mountain Backstep used to be a jam session requirement. It was always played in the key of A. I played it in standard G-tuning with a capo on the second fret. I've never encountered a banjo player who did it any other way.

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Edited by - writerrad on 12/20/2025 18:25:07

writerrad - Posted - 12/20/2025:  18:32:37

quote:  It is rather stupid and derogatory to assume bluegrass or oldtime guitarists do not know minor chords.  Plain ignorance.  There is a strong tendency though among both old time guitarists and some bluegrass guitarists not to use minor Chords especially for the older modal fiddle tunes and banjo songs.  I have played guitar behind banjoists in a bluegrass context playing the Backstep probably since around 1965 or 66.  I can remember being instructed at a young age NOT to use minor chords like some Joan Baez imitator or something on tune like the backstep.  I followed that instructions into my 70s.   I might but a 7th cord G  if we are playing in A which is what it is mostly played in today., but I might not..

Tractor1 - Posted - 12/20/2025:  19:03:15

quote:

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Originally posted by writerrad

quote:that is often because Ralph original version seems to be tuned up somewhere around B flat or A halfway there.  I used to have a wrong theory about pitching and banjos but it led me to spend a lot of time getting the exact pitching (that is the absolute pitch as opposed to the intervals between the notes in a tuning) of many bluegrass and old time tunes.  Ralph Stanley's original tune is somewhere around B flat.   

It is one of the great moments of modern music.

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Originally posted by Tractor1

If I can't find a good version on a G tuned neck -I have not completed my search

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Tony I would have no problem getting in tune with the tune--what I was trying to say is that I never retune to make a personal arrangement of any tune --I do hook the fifth  on 2 tunes though --

actually anymore I put their version on an app and can  adjust  it one cent at a time --I use the  Transcribe app for that-

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