csacwp - Posted - 10/21/2025:  14:25:20

I'm dismayed but not surprised that some people are still stringing classic era banjos with wire strings and performing hack job neck resets. It's no longer 1965, but Music Folk in St. Louis didn't get the memo. This is the same shop that ruined a Curtis Electric a few years back.

reverb.com/item/92710268-ss-st...-s-1890-s

davidppp - Posted - 10/21/2025:  15:04:50

metmuseum.org/perspectives/two-stradivari  -- People pay millions of dollars for ones that have been hacked to use wire strings instead of the original gut and play different music in different sorts of playing spaces.

A Drum On A Stick - Posted - 10/21/2025:  15:10:10

quote:

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Originally posted by davidppp

metmuseum.org/perspectives/two-stradivari  -- People pay millions of dollars for ones that have been hacked to use wire strings instead of the original gut and play different music in different sorts of playing spaces.

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Interesting counterpoint, and I have wondered if one day we will look back with horror on what we've done to priceless violins.

re: the original post: Those are even original celluloid tuners!  I can't imagine they tune well or last long with wire strings.  I had to buy reproductions for my stewart :(

Edited by - A Drum On A Stick on 10/21/2025 15:13:05

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/21/2025:  20:22:15

Time to remind everyone that if the “don’t mess with it” philosophy had prevailed in the world of Cremonese violins, you could not play post 1700 music on them. That does not suggest Stewart and other period banjos should be used unmodified with steel strings. It does suggest it’s ok to modify such instruments for steel strings. Collectible models should, of course, remain unmodified.

A historical note: In the 1960s, when I started banjo, and likely on into the '70s, no one I ever knew of (and I didn't know the classic-style players,who were concentrated in East Coast cities), was playing with gut or Nylon strings. I never heard even knowledgeable players or shop staff say to use gut or nylon on pre-WWI banjos. So the information about those old necks wasn't readily available. The internet's been around long enough now that players in their 20s and 30s don't really know what it was lke to dig up banjo information in pre-web days. 

Edited by - Bill Rogers on 10/21/2025 20:53:40

 

Bill Rogers - Posted - 10/21/2025:  20:55:10

Sorrry about Fred Bacon. I don’t know how he got there and I can’t now even try to lose him.

Andy FitzGibbon - Posted - 10/22/2025:  02:47:56

Never knew Stewart had a second location in Boston! Or that something with a massive, poorly repaired heel crack still rates "Very Good +" condition.

Moving the end of the dowel for more neck angle is definitely hack work.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/22/2025:  02:48:36

Banjos are not violins.

dpgetman - Posted - 10/22/2025:  05:14:42

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Sorrry about Fred Bacon. I don’t know how he got there and I can’t now even try to lose him.

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Oh, I thought that was you playing banjo in the 1960's Bill!

jethrobodine - Posted - 10/22/2025:  06:36:36

The greatest hack job of all is chucking a prewar archtop rim in a lathe. This topic walking a hypocritical tightrope.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 10/22/2025:  07:20:44

Comparing hack resets and wire strings to the violin is an "apples to oranges" fallacy argument.

The changes to the violin were done to increase the playable gamut and aid in rapid execution. The violin only widely adopted a wire first due to WW1 war shortages, and then continued to use gut second and thirds until after WW2.

Adding wire strings to a classic era banjo decreases the available dynamics and shading. Another common modification seen, the "scoop", reduces the playable gamut. These "modern playability" changes are a devolvement. This is the opposite of violin changes.

Were these "modern playability" changes made to actually increase the gamut of the banjo to a playable 3.5 to 4 octaves, help playing in odd keys out of standard tuning, increase the rapid execution of clear notes for the average player, as well help with dynamic control and shading, then one might have an argument.

Changes to the violin made solos like Paganini's Caprice #24 possible.

"Modern" changes to the banjo make accompaniment to a fiddle in a jam while using a capo to change keys possible.

Don't get me wrong, festival banjo is legitimate, luckily there are many people making banjos for that today.

KCJones - Posted - 10/22/2025:  08:14:32

Joel this is frustrating indeed, and probably the only true solution is to take the "Duck's Unlimited" approach: If you want it preserved, buy it yourself and preserve it.

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 10/22/2025:  10:47:41

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Comparing hack resets and wire strings to the violin is an "apples to oranges" fallacy argument.



The changes to the violin were done to increase the playable gamut and aid in rapid execution. The violin only widely adopted a wire first due to WW1 war shortages, and then continued to use gut second and thirds until after WW2.



Adding wire strings to a classic era banjo decreases the available dynamics and shading. Another common modification seen, the "scoop", reduces the playable gamut. These "modern playability" changes are a devolvement. This is the opposite of violin changes.



Were these "modern playability" changes made to actually increase the gamut of the banjo to a playable 3.5 to 4 octaves, help playing in odd keys out of standard tuning, increase the rapid execution of clear notes for the average player, as well help with dynamic control and shading, then one might have an argument.



Changes to the violin made solos like Paganini's Caprice #24 possible.



"Modern" changes to the banjo make accompaniment to a fiddle in a jam while using a capo to change keys possible.



Don't get me wrong, festival banjo is legitimate, luckily there are many people making banjos for that today.

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When opinion is presented as fact. Love it Joel, don't stop preaching to us from that highest of horse

mikehalloran - Posted - 10/22/2025:  12:17:06

Hmmm... I bought an identical American Princess about 50 years ago from Guitar Showcase in San Jose. One thing I always liked about them was that, when they didn't know what to do with a trade-in, they sold it as-is and cheap to those who did. Don't recall what I paid other than it was less than the $125 I paid for a near perfect Fender Allegro long neck w/ case a decade later.

About the only thing I did was remove steel strings and replace with nylon. It was ok but we didn't bond and I found it a better home about 20 years later.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 10/23/2025:  07:17:29

Humans are amazingly good at ignorance. We're not stupid (well, most of us), we just live in a bubble of our own interests.

Altering old instruments to suit today's needs is as old as instruments are. My first Stewart was bought so that I could learn Clawhammer...and I couldn't afford a Tubaphone. It was a box of parts (all complete but in pieces). I tossed the mangled celluloid tuners and added small-shaft planetaries. Scooping wasn't a thing back then (frankly, I wouldn't have done that anyway, I wouldn't have wanted to mess with the inlay, etc.). I played it for 20+ years using steel strings. When I found I liked having a scoop, I had banjos made with them. The Stewart went on the wall, detuned. It is still there...unharmed, easy conversion to nylon. One of these days I will. 

kyleb - Posted - 10/23/2025:  07:48:03

I have to add to the violin argument..



Its really not applicable to banjos, as stated violins had to be changed to allow them to play modern (well nearly 300 year old now) styles, and by making the change it allowed these fine instruments to continue life, the tone and volume are unmatched in some cases to anything made since. But f'n with a classic era banjo as this example, doesnt just make the insturment playable and maintain the tonal qualities that made it unique, it completely changes the insturment and decreases the tonal qualities. Its not the same at all and its butchering an instrument in my opinion. The fiddle comparison is more applicable to converting a tenor prewar gibson to a five string. The sound of the insturment is unchanged, but it allows a different playing style. 

Edited by - kyleb on 10/23/2025 07:49:12

Bronx banjo - Posted - 10/23/2025:  18:43:04

Why is this so complicated? If a banjo isn’t made for steel strings, don’t put steel strings on it.

Bradskey - Posted - 10/23/2025:  20:32:52

The Supertone I rescued, a late cost-reduced mass product form of classic era banjo and of little real worth, had big wads of steel string wound around the none-too-durable original fake ebony pegs when I got it. The pegs were nearly chewed through by the wire, and the 5th peg had broken off. I know the production process compromises the wood in these anyway, makes them brittle and chip easily, but they likely would have fared okay with just nylon or gut. By appearances the wire could have been there since the 60s. The banjo was otherwise 100% intact with a rather appealing age patina. I eventually ended up personally installing a set of Pegheds that look like ebony pegs. Overkill for this instrument perhaps, but they look great and are very nice to use.

But initially when I showed the instrument here in its original state with just the vague intention to "fix" it. I was aware of older string materials I suppose but not really thinking that far yet when someone suggested I consider stringing it with nylon to preserve it and the neck. Sure, why not? I have 6 or 7 heavy wire string banjos, I certainly didn't need wire on this one or for the stage.

Ignoring that I made the mistake of nylgut at first, I eventually learned to "attack" and pull tone from nylon strings both plucking and strumming with just my bare fingers in a much freer style than my 3-finger Bluegrass. Enough to please myself anyway. It's different, it's nice. The instrument was made for it (still has original skin head and a correct style bridge). It's worth giving a chance.

The very cheapest of similar contemporary catalog models to this banjo often actually were sold with wire strings, muddying the issue a bit (this model sold with gut though, or some years, silk), but you also don't find too many examples of those BSOs have entirely survived. Designed to fall apart. My particular model was "cheap" to be sure, and inexpensively made, but it did retain some of the dignities of the general design and has survived 100+ years very well, in spite of some bozo hippie's sloppy gobs of wire on the pegs.

jethrobodine - Posted - 10/23/2025:  20:38:42

quote:

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

Why is this so complicated? If a banjo isn’t made for steel strings, don’t put steel strings on it.

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Why is it so complicated?  If a prewar rim is made (cut) for an archtop ring, don't put (cut rim for) a flathead ring.

KCJones - Posted - 10/24/2025:  06:40:40

quote:

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Originally posted by jethrobodine

quote:

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

Why is this so complicated? If a banjo isn’t made for steel strings, don’t put steel strings on it.

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Why is it so complicated?  If a prewar rim is made (cut) for an archtop ring, don't put (cut rim for) a flathead ring.

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Both of these things seem reasonable. 

quote:

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Originally posted by ChunoTheDog

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

Comparing hack resets and wire strings to the violin is an "apples to oranges" fallacy argument.

 

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When opinion is presented as fact. Love it Joel, don't stop preaching to us from that highest of horse

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Chuno can't directly refute any points made by Joel, so he resorts to personal attacks. It is a fact, not an opinion, that neck scoops reduce the playable gamut on a banjo.

Edited by - KCJones on 10/24/2025 06:41:36

kyleb - Posted - 10/24/2025:  08:03:27

quote:

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Originally posted by jethrobodine

quote:

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Originally posted by Bronx banjo

Why is this so complicated? If a banjo isn’t made for steel strings, don’t put steel strings on it.

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Why is it so complicated?  If a prewar rim is made (cut) for an archtop ring, don't put (cut rim for) a flathead ring.

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especially since they have great drop in flat head rings that dont require modification.