Spudwheat - Posted - 03/30/2025:  05:22:47

If you're a beginner and need help on how to practice, the most effective use of your time; read this book. It is a game-changer and the most clearly written and supported advice I've ever read. Highest learning return I've ever gotten from a 16 buck investment.

dbrooks - Posted - 03/30/2025:  08:33:58

I first read about neuroplasticity, or the brain's continuing ability to learn and create new neural pathways, in 2010 when Josh Turknett had two articles in Banjo Newsletter.  The ideas in those articles provided help and encouragement at an early time in my banjo re-entry.  His current book covers that same ground in more depth and with more examples.

David

jsinjin - Posted - 03/30/2025:  09:01:20

Josh’s system didn’t work for me. I reached out to him a couple of times especially after I kept getting results from his “can you play by ear” test

clawhammerbanjo.net/earquiz/

that said “you did not do better than random chance are you sure you were listening, click here to try again”.

He responded “banjo may not be for you”

I do love banjo but I learned his method definitely didn’t work for someone who has a lot of trouble distinguishing tones and trouble playing by ear. I can completely appreciate the tenets of practice, methods of practice and the function of how a person learns with types of reinforcement.

But I definitely moved forward much better and faster for me with methods that were different. I was incredibly frustrated with the progress and work in his methods and I did give them a chance but ultimately switched to an online teacher and lots of study of music theory and tab and sheet music to be able to understand what was going on. I’m sure I learned slower than others but I wasn’t learning or progressing over the first three months with his program.

Bill H - Posted - 03/30/2025:  11:32:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Josh’s system didn’t work for me. I reached out to him a couple of times especially after I kept getting results from his “can you play by ear” test



clawhammerbanjo.net/earquiz/



that said “you did not do better than random chance are you sure you were listening, click here to try again”.



He responded “banjo may not be for you”



I do love banjo but I learned his method definitely didn’t work for someone who has a lot of trouble distinguishing tones and trouble playing by ear. I can completely appreciate the tenets of practice, methods of practice and the function of how a person learns with types of reinforcement.



But I definitely moved forward much better and faster for me with methods that were different. I was incredibly frustrated with the progress and work in his methods and I did give them a chance but ultimately switched to an online teacher and lots of study of music theory and tab and sheet music to be able to understand what was going on. I’m sure I learned slower than others but I wasn’t learning or progressing over the first three months with his program.

---

I am with you. Over time I have been able to improve my learning by ear. but I do better withsheet music, or at the very least, I need to write out the tab as I learn by ear or I lose it. It is a ton of fun to play banjo and we all learn differently. It's good you let that experience stop you from playing.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/30/2025:  12:28:50

How about “anyone can learn to play music, but it might not be worth the effort.” Learning to play music is one thing; learning to play the music you’d like to play at the skill level you’d like to have is quite another.

HighLonesomeF5 - Posted - 03/30/2025:  12:56:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Josh’s system didn’t work for me. I reached out to him a couple of times especially after I kept getting results from his “can you play by ear” test



clawhammerbanjo.net/earquiz/



that said “you did not do better than random chance are you sure you were listening, click here to try again”.



He responded “banjo may not be for you”



I do love banjo but I learned his method definitely didn’t work for ilsomeone who has a lot of trouble distinguishing tones and trouble playing by ear. I can completely appreciate the tenets of practice, methods of practice and the function of how a person learns with types of reinforcement.



But I definitely moved forward much better and faster for me with methods that were different. I was incredibly frustrated with the progress and work in his methods and I did give them a chance but ultimately switched to an online teacher and lots of study of music theory and tab and sheet music to be able to understand what was going on. I’m sure I learned slower than others but I wasn’t learning or progressing over the first three months with his program.

---

I believe some need just the right instruction or moment for that light to switch on. Surprised at the negative response.  If you love the banjo keep at it until you find that switch.

Too many times I hear someone described as gifted.  Well if Bela was so gifted he would not have to practice 8 hours a day for years. YMMV

Edited by - HighLonesomeF5 on 03/30/2025 13:03:40

jsinjin - Posted - 03/30/2025:  13:13:09

I’ve seen one or two truly gifted people in my lifetime and they still had to practice. At the apex of anything you find both gifted and uber practitioners but both put in huge amounts of effort. At some point you do have to realize that practice will only take you so far and then the difference is often physics.

But I’ll never desire to be great at banjo. “It is unwise to seek prominence in a field whose routine chores you do not enjoy”

I do not enjoy playing in groups and don’t really enjoy music. But I do enjoy practicing banjo so my time can be spent doing that.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 03/30/2025:  13:29:50

HighLonesomeF5 wrote: “…if Bela was so gifted he would not have to practice 8 hours a day for years.”

Completely misses the point. Bela’s musical gifts enabled him to get that much better with practice. All great and gifted musicians practice incessantly. Benny Goodman, perhaps the best improvisational clarinetist ever, was known for putting in hours practicing. Clarence White practiced at length and regularly. And so on. But most of us lack the musical gifts to use that practice time to play like Bela or Noam or Victor Furtado. Practice alone can get you to a certain level depending on your native abilities. If those abilities are mostly lacking, you may want to choose another pasttime than music.

Owen - Posted - 03/30/2025:  13:39:07

Bill R.: "... learning to play the music you’d like to play at the skill level you’d like to have is quite another." 

 Yes indeedy, and that can be true even when the "level you'd like" is  v-e-r-y  modest.

"You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear." ...... or sumpthin' like that.

jsinjin - Posted - 03/30/2025:  14:22:25

I watched a kid once flawlessly execute the full range of movements radically well as a middle school football player. He could cut incredibly well and was smart on the field and the fastest kid in both distance and short on the whole team for middle school track. Handing him the ball in 7th grade football guaranteed a touchdown or at least a first down as a running back on any handoff play. He was just that fast. A year later during growth spurts it was clear he did not have the body for Texas football. As he matured in cross country and distance track he won the state championship in cross, 800 1600 and 3200 his junior and senior year and was recruited to division 1 at the top level never to even try football again. When you ask him he says he loves football but it wasn’t in the cards. Several ncaa championships later I think it’s ok.

At the same time I have a friend who has a hobby of barbq smoking and grilling. He is good and his wife puts up with it. I’m sure there are better chefs but he loves to cook brisket and other cuts of meat to juicy smoked deliciousness and only serve them to family and friends.

No one has ever said to him “ this activity of cooking takes a lot of work and I’ve seen many people give up”. We all say “wow Bob that’s delicious”.


Music and sports are two the the places where I tend to see people always compare themselves and new players to the greatest in the game or genre even if a hobbyist has no goal whatsoever to reach that. As though it’s a failure to an individual taking up the activity to not reach for performance greatness or Olympic or professional sports notoriety.

HighLonesomeF5 - Posted - 03/30/2025:  14:39:56

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

HighLonesomeF5 wrote: “…if Bela was so gifted he would not have to practice 8 hours a day for years.”



Completely misses the point. Bela’s musical gifts enabled him to get that much better with practice. All great and gifted musicians practice incessantly. Benny Goodman, perhaps the best improvisational clarinetist ever, was known for putting in hours practicing. Clarence White practiced at length and regularly. And so on. But most of us lack the musical gifts to use that practice time to play like Bela or Noam or Victor Furtado. Practice alone can get you to a certain level depending on your native abilities. If those abilities are mostly lacking, you may want to choose another pasttime than music.

---

I gave my opinion on talent, and added "YMMV". No need to argue. 

dbrooks - Posted - 03/30/2025:  17:15:40

Josh Turknett's tab arrangements generally don't appeal to me for one reason or another, and I haven't had a lesson with him so I cannot comment on his teaching style.  However, I have found his thoughts about the learning process and how to engage our brains and nervous systems very helpful as a teacher with my classes and with individual students.  He discounts both the "born with it" idea and the idea that you need 10,000 hours of practice to master a skill.  That has given many of my students hope and an appreciation for short-term goals.  His advice on approaching a new skill, whether playing the banjo or riding a bike, stresses the importance of how you learn, how you practice, how you set your goals, etc.

Bottom line for me: I find his advice and insights about the learning process very helpful to me as a teacher.

David

Spudwheat - Posted - 03/30/2025:  18:45:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Josh’s system didn’t work for me. I reached out to him a couple of times especially after I kept getting results from his “can you play by ear” test



clawhammerbanjo.net/earquiz/



that said “you did not do better than random chance are you sure you were listening, click here to try again”.



He responded “banjo may not be for you”



I do love banjo but I learned his method definitely didn’t work for someone who has a lot of trouble distinguishing tones and trouble playing by ear. I can completely appreciate the tenets of practice, methods of practice and the function of how a person learns with types of reinforcement.



But I definitely moved forward much better and faster for me with methods that were different. I was incredibly frustrated with the progress and work in his methods and I did give them a chance but ultimately switched to an online teacher and lots of study of music theory and tab and sheet music to be able to understand what was going on. I’m sure I learned slower than others but I wasn’t learning or progressing over the first three months with his program.

---

Of course, not every method matches every student. I click better with Lukas Pool than Josh. That being said, I think it is important to keep an open mind, as many accomplished people can contribute small pieces towards the final result. 

Spudwheat - Posted - 03/30/2025:  18:48:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

How about “anyone can learn to play music, but it might not be worth the effort.” Learning to play music is one thing; learning to play the music you’d like to play at the skill level you’d like to have is quite another.

---

Really? Wow. Did you read this book?

jsinjin - Posted - 03/30/2025:  18:53:07

I don’t have anything against him. Or his methods. They just didn’t work for me and I think it’s because I really don’t hear the music very well. I think in general that not being able to hear the melody, tell if the instrument is in tune or recognize the I IV V chords and when they change is a detriment to “normal” banjo playing. It’s not easy to begin with and if you add a lack of ability to hear things it’s not a good mix. I recall attending one of his no picker left behind wheee he would play three or four notes and the rest of us had to guess what he played and nearly everyone picked it up but I was left trying to guess which one of five strings and 17 frets was played each and every time with no real way to determine if I was even close or not. I think that’s where he realized his method wasn’t really a good fit for me. I can use tab but I’ve really been teaching myself how to transcribe to sheet music and learn from music. I can even pick out songs from piano sheet now and my daughter says they sound like Pocahontas or whatever is in the kids old piano books.

Spudwheat - Posted - 03/30/2025:  18:55:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by HighLonesomeF5

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Josh’s system didn’t work for me. I reached out to him a couple of times especially after I kept getting results from his “can you play by ear” test



clawhammerbanjo.net/earquiz/



that said “you did not do better than random chance are you sure you were listening, click here to try again”.



He responded “banjo may not be for you”



I do love banjo but I learned his method definitely didn’t work for ilsomeone who has a lot of trouble distinguishing tones and trouble playing by ear. I can completely appreciate the tenets of practice, methods of practice and the function of how a person learns with types of reinforcement.



But I definitely moved forward much better and faster for me with methods that were different. I was incredibly frustrated with the progress and work in his methods and I did give them a chance but ultimately switched to an online teacher and lots of study of music theory and tab and sheet music to be able to understand what was going on. I’m sure I learned slower than others but I wasn’t learning or progressing over the first three months with his program.

---

I believe some need just the right instruction or moment for that light to switch on. Surprised at the negative response.  If you love the banjo keep at it until you find that switch.

Too many times I hear someone described as gifted.  Well if Bela was so gifted he would not have to practice 8 hours a day for years. YMMV

---

I agree with being surprised by the negative responses. Not every teacher is for everyone, but not practicing will get one no where. The "musically gifted" statement is often, if not always, untrue. Yes, people have different propensities for different things. Those favorable propensities can be based on life experiences as a young child. Many people are taking my original statement as a referendum on Josh's teaching style. I just thought the book was a great read with excellent, well-supported information. It is not often that a neuroscientist, who is also an accomplished banjo player, writes a book that is easy to read and gives some great things to try if one is having trouble.

Owen - Posted - 03/30/2025:  20:17:07

Fwiw, here's some b.s. (?) related to favorable propensities.   The daughter of a friend of mine was unable to learn to make change, or for that matter learn even the rudiments of money/value. However, without being taught, she was able to remember the birthdates of friends of her parents after being told only once.  I was pretty slack in keeping in touch [i.e. sometimes a few years in between contacts], and there certainly were no "practice" sessions with her parents in the meantime, but she never erred.  Her parents told me that it was the same for other friends/acquaintances, and I have no reason to think they were trying to hoodwink me.

jsinjin - Posted - 03/30/2025:  20:36:08

Oh I think Josh’s book, credentials and work are completely of the highest quality and brilliant at teaching a difficult subject. And my statement was only that my anecdotal experience wasn’t good. I have my own issues that I can’t distinguish tones or tell melody in music. I’m also just a person on a message board.

Donald Thomas, a basketball player at a D3 college called lindenwood in St. Louis MO never ran track and field and never did high jump in his life. He tried high jump against the track athletes at his college on a dare. He was so good that the track coach took him in one season to win the commonwealth games and compete at the Olympics. No prior training, didn’t really enjoy the sport either, had to be coerced into doing it. It happens that sometimes people are great at something without any experience or even knowing it.

Pix5String - Posted - 03/31/2025:  06:41:43

I started learning by tab which even at the time seemed terribly slow. Then I discovered Murphy Henry who teaches learning by ear… my learning process accelerated. During that time I had periods that I could practice 6-8 hour a day (for about a month) and my learning really accelerated. I can hear the melody and anticipate the chord changes. I still am not at the level that I would like… jamming and picking out tunes/songs on the fly. The great banjo players even of the recent generation slowed down LPs to pick out the music and I think that painstaking labor paid off for most of them. That experience told me that time must be invested (for me) to progress.
I’m not one to not try anything that may help my playing and I have the bookshelves to prove it. I can’t think of any material that I’ve tried that didn’t help me at last a little bit. I really believe that the brain is malleable and needs exercise. For less than $20 on Amazon, I’m not about to leave Josh’s book in the cart. Every little bit helps for me and it may be “the” one that puts me on the next level! Only trying it will tell. Part of the fun is the journey.
Willie

Pick-A-Lick - Posted - 03/31/2025:  07:44:13

Some research suggests that a higher percentage of neurodivergent individuals are found in the music industry, including those with conditions such as ADHD, autism spectrum, dyslexia, etc. With these conditions may come abilities, skills, and perspectives such as heightened focus, creativity, and varying ways of processing information, which may be advantageous to learning or conversely, promote learning challenges.
It’s also important to bring to light the fact that each of us has different expectations from different situations. What is important to one person may not even be a consideration to another. Then there is the human aspect of “clicking” with one who teaches regarding teaching style, personality, subject matter or other.
That said, with all of the variables involved, it comes as no surprise that there is no “One size fits all” when it comes to learning and retaining information. The mentality that “what is right for one is right for all” is a flawed expectation. Each student must find his own way of learning which might involve considerable experimentation.

Owen - Posted - 03/31/2025:  08:14:26

Is it possible that the human aspect makes everybody* neurodivergent .... to some degree or another, in some aspect or another, etc. ?

Willie's comment, "The great banjo players even of the recent generation slowed down LPs to pick out the music and I think that painstaking labor paid off for most of them." is one we hear fairly often, and I don't disagree.  I don't diminish the value of practice / painstaking labor, but there are some [not the great ones] who are unable to pick/figure out the music even when it is slowed down.

* 'cept the kids from Lake Wobegon.  

Edited by - Owen on 03/31/2025 08:17:45

Pick-A-Lick - Posted - 03/31/2025:  09:09:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

Is it possible that the human aspect makes everybody* neurodivergent .... to some degree or another, in some aspect or another, etc. ?

Willie's comment, "The great banjo players even of the recent generation slowed down LPs to pick out the music and I think that painstaking labor paid off for most of them." is one we hear fairly often, and I don't disagree.  I don't diminish the value of practice / painstaking labor, but there are some [not the great ones] who are unable to pick/figure out the music even when it is slowed down.

* 'cept the kids from Lake Wobegon.  

---

Owen, 

l'm pretty sure the drift if your observation is that the human aspect in and if itself may result in similar outcomes as those of neurodivergent folks. I would agree to that wholeheartedly as no two of us humans are the same.

*The kids from Lake Wobegon (just down the road from my town) are indeed special and excel in their own perfect ways. 

Edited by - Pick-A-Lick on 03/31/2025 09:12:07

jsinjin - Posted - 03/31/2025:  09:18:04

I’m so glad you pointed out that fabulous place where “all of the children are above average”.

I’ve met two of those “weirdos” of neurodivergence. One was a young man in my son’s Boy Scout troop with zero social skills, a severe focus on writing and reading. A Hollywood comedy writer couldn’t have scripted the bizarre things this kid did. But his severe interest in military history and books led to finishing undergraduate college in two years with degrees in history and Russian and then a full PhD at Georgetown paid for by the Rand corporation and more linguistics. I recently heard from the kids dad that he worked full time for a large hedge fund in international investing. Another young woman I knew had a bizarre photographic memory. She aced any course that was based on memorization with limited analytical problem solving. She was not even able to understand calculus even with severe help but when it came to comparative anatomy, organic chemistry, biochem, and many other non-quantitative examples of science she did almost no work for straight A’s. She eventually went on to med school and did well in family practice. I asked her about her strange memory and she said she had always been able to see long lists one time and recite them from memory without really thinking about it. She had a harder time applying things but in many high volume science classes where the material is more taxonomic this is a valuable skill.

I share a true story that happened to me and my wife. Fort Worth has a fabulous concert hall called the Bass Hall. It houses the Fort Worth Ballet and Symphony Orchestra. It is close to TCU in downtown Ft Worth (Go Frogs). The two sites are the locations of the “summer and winter games of piano” called the Van Cliburn piano competition. Every two years there is one competition for the highest level of next generation young pianist and on the opposite two years there is an amateur piano exhibition for any age of amateurs at the highest level. Van Cliburn died a few years ago but his presence in ft worth and around TCU was intensely tied to the community.

That’s backstory for what I’m about to share. My wife loves the symphony and we bought subscriber tickets to the pops symphony at the top nosebleed at the bass hall for several years where the music was things such as Copeland classics or “bugs bunny at the symphony” where they symphony played the music as the bugs bunny cartoons were shown.

One year the subscribers who had held tickets for more than 5 years were offered a very special evening of John Williams conducting the Ft Worth symphony for one night playing his music. We happened to be in the group and bought our nosebleed tickets to this. It was to use the term a blue blood ft worth black tie affair.

John Williams is an amazing humble and hysterical person. He taught the audience how he wrote a composition such as a comedy action sequence showing us footage from an Indiana jones movie and pointing out the different points that were there to add humor then conducting the orchestra while that sequence played and the characters did their thing. Another time he talked about his friend “Steven” whom he meant Steven Spielberg showing him schindlers list and asking him what he thought of the movie and John Williams said “well Steven you created something amazing and you need a better composer”. He then said “Steven laughted and said, ‘yes John I do need a better composer but they are all dead’”

To get to the point about greatness: he then stopped on stage in his tuxedo and told a story: “If any of you enjoy my music you have one man to thank. You must understand that I was a great classical pianist. I was truly great. When I attended Juliard, Madame Lhévinne had all of the young students wishing to become pianists play for her in the concert hall. I played a piece by Chopin and it was one I had played several times in performance and I was great. And the next person who played was so very far above my level that I knew I had to choose a different career and that very day I shifted to composition as my life because I would never be able to match the ability of this person. And this person is here today, Harvey…” and he gestured to the audience and Van Cliburn stood all 6 foot 6 of his aging frame. The two bowed to each other and the audience had a standing ovation. John motioned to the stage and Van Cliburn stood and walked up to the stage and the two men bowed then hugged.

I did a post doc with a Nobel laureate, I shook the hand of Ronald Reagan as a kid after a science fair and I once met briefly Phil Collins of Genesis. But I consider myself fortunate beyond any rational capacity to have seen these two geniuses in one place at one time and hear that unique tale about them and their greatness. I don’t think it is very often that such talent appears at one place and I still feel fortunate to have been at the top of the nosebleed section at Bass Hall that evening.

Pix5String - Posted - 03/31/2025:  09:33:34

Great stories John! Essentially what you’re saying is that even these wonderful accomplished people weren’t able to learn to play the banjo…… wink,smile….
I feel better now. Willie

jsinjin - Posted - 03/31/2025:  09:48:22

I bet no one is born great at banjo

Dan Gellert - Posted - 03/31/2025:  09:50:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I do not enjoy playing in groups and don’t really enjoy music. But I do enjoy practicing banjo so my time can be spent doing that.

---

(bold/underline added by me).

Of course you don't relate to Josh's book.   You aren't interested in making MUSIC! 

Music is sound which moves the listener emotionally and physically.   I cannot imagine why one would do any of this without first being overwhelmed (or at least intensely fascinated) by their own personal response to music.  If I say, "You can learn to play music," I really mean, "You can learn to make the sounds on your instrument that you love to hear other players make."   Theory, notation, and playing technique are important to me only insofar as they aid and support the goal of producing those sounds. 

There's nothing inherently wrong with your enjoying translating notation into finger exercises. You are learning something, but it is neither playing nor music (by my understanding of those words). 

Edited by - Dan Gellert on 03/31/2025 10:03:58

jsinjin - Posted - 03/31/2025:  10:29:27

Absolutely and I agree. The no picker left behind live session seemed focused on Josh playing short pieces without the group being able to see his fingers and the group mimicking them. I was entirely focused on the idea that Josh could have played any one of five strings and 17 frets for each note and I had to somehow guess what they might be. Of course this was only a few days into my experience with banjo and I had not learned much of anything. At that point the concept of even how to hold my instrument and where to put my hand was lost so the idea hearing bum ditty or pull off ditty was as alien as someone saying “just apply a Fourier transform” would be to a kid taking algebra 1.

And I still can’t do it. I have a better chance of guessing now but if I heard a note or set of three notes the concept of figuring that out from ear would never work at all for me. I also can’t tune my banjo by ear; I just give up and guess and the people around me keep stopping saying “hey, that really sounds out of tune”.

It’s strange but I spent years imagining why notes occur at specific frequencies rather than the full range of frequencies. It bothered me a lot. In my music theory studies in order for me to grasp it I had to back all the way down to open and closed tubes and the vibrational harmonics of strings to calculate where the nodes were. I just couldn’t accept the why for the music without understanding it in math.

And that turns out to be the best way for me to learn. I didn’t want to play boil them cabbage down and have it sound like a song. I wanted to know why each note was chosen, what made the song actually become a song, why did certain notes sound good to people and why did they happen to be the ones that are selected. Why does the. Banjo only have five strings instead of six or 7 and why that range of tone, how does the head vibrate and why that motion on the hammering style for clawhammer vs others. And the answer of “it’s just that way” or “hundreds of great banjo players play this way” is absolutely not enough for me. The very last thing I would enjoy is sitting in a circle guessing what the next song is while talking and playing and feeling the history of the genre in community. As I’ve taken my own route I had a tuner come out to tune the family Yamaha upright piano and I sat with the poor guy and his tuning forks for several hours asking every question I could. And I’ve found that to convert a song to tab then sheet music takes a lot of work on the piano and I really should have just learned piano. But it’s darn near impossible to camp with one or take it with the airstream or play around the campfire or pull it out after skiing somewhere. But I’ve been so very excited to have learned so much about how and why music works and I’ll continue.

Corwyn - Posted - 03/31/2025:  11:31:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by HighLonesomeF5

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

HighLonesomeF5 wrote: “…if Bela was so gifted he would not have to practice 8 hours a day for years.”



Completely misses the point. Bela’s musical gifts enabled him to get that much better with practice. All great and gifted musicians practice incessantly. Benny Goodman, perhaps the best improvisational clarinetist ever, was known for putting in hours practicing. Clarence White practiced at length and regularly. And so on. But most of us lack the musical gifts to use that practice time to play like Bela or Noam or Victor Furtado. Practice alone can get you to a certain level depending on your native abilities. If those abilities are mostly lacking, you may want to choose another pasttime than music.

---

I gave my opinion on talent, and added "YMMV". No need to argue. 

---

Right.  As long as you say "YMMV" there is no need for other opinions.

Thank you kindly.

jsinjin - Posted - 03/31/2025:  17:03:40

Scott Adam’s of Dilbert said he felt everyone should finish every statement with BOCTAOE which means but of course there are obvious exceptions

HighLonesomeF5 - Posted - 03/31/2025:  17:18:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corwyn

quote:

---

Originally posted by HighLonesomeF5

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

HighLonesomeF5 wrote: “…if Bela was so gifted he would not have to practice 8 hours a day for years.”



Completely misses the point. Bela’s musical gifts enabled him to get that much better with practice. All great and gifted musicians practice incessantly. Benny Goodman, perhaps the best improvisational clarinetist ever, was known for putting in hours practicing. Clarence White practiced at length and regularly. And so on. But most of us lack the musical gifts to use that practice time to play like Bela or Noam or Victor Furtado. Practice alone can get you to a certain level depending on your native abilities. If those abilities are mostly lacking, you may want to choose another pasttime than music.

---

I gave my opinion on talent, and added "YMMV". No need to argue. 

---

Right.  As long as you say "YMMV" there is no need for other opinions.

Thank you kindly.

---

Your closing indicates your need to argue, but in a very passive way, know what I mean?

Corwyn - Posted - 03/31/2025:  19:46:06

quote:

---

Originally posted by HighLonesomeF5

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corwyn

quote:

---

Originally posted by HighLonesomeF5

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill Rogers

HighLonesomeF5 wrote: “…if Bela was so gifted he would not have to practice 8 hours a day for years.”



Completely misses the point. Bela’s musical gifts enabled him to get that much better with practice. All great and gifted musicians practice incessantly. Benny Goodman, perhaps the best improvisational clarinetist ever, was known for putting in hours practicing. Clarence White practiced at length and regularly. And so on. But most of us lack the musical gifts to use that practice time to play like Bela or Noam or Victor Furtado. Practice alone can get you to a certain level depending on your native abilities. If those abilities are mostly lacking, you may want to choose another pasttime than music.

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I gave my opinion on talent, and added "YMMV". No need to argue. 

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Right.  As long as you say "YMMV" there is no need for other opinions.

Thank you kindly.

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Your closing indicates your need to argue, but in a very passive way, know what I mean?

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Odd that you mistake a rebuke for an argument.

Thank you kindly.

wileypickett - Posted - 03/31/2025:  22:54:14

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

Benny Goodman, perhaps the best improvisational clarinetist ever. . . .

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Some would say, and emphatically, that Artie Shaw was the man.

(And, YMMV.)

Edited by - wileypickett on 03/31/2025 22:56:34

Spudwheat - Posted - 04/01/2025:  04:35:41

quote:

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Originally posted by Owen

Fwiw, here's some b.s. (?) related to favorable propensities.   The daughter of a friend of mine was unable to learn to make change, or for that matter learn even the rudiments of money/value. However, without being taught, she was able to remember the birthdates of friends of her parents after being told only once.  I was pretty slack in keeping in touch [i.e. sometimes a few years in between contacts], and there certainly were no "practice" sessions with her parents in the meantime, but she never erred.  Her parents told me that it was the same for other friends/acquaintances, and I have no reason to think they were trying to hoodwink me.

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Not to be snarky, but obviously her friend's birthdays were more important than making change. Also, making change is a multi-faceted task with varying outcomes, so there really isn't a comparison. Many children "can't make change." They are now adults who can't make change. This is inexcusable and lazy on the parent's part, who also can't make change. When an emotional experience or desire is linked to a skill, a child will place importance upon it and develop desire to learn. This change making was solved in a third grade classroom one time by linking a child's ability to make correct change to their position in the lunch line. Prior to lunch, I would give change making problems that were humorously written by me. Each kid had a "money kit" with real coins and legally photocopied bills (1, 5, & 10). Lunch line up was determined by who was first to make correct change for each problem. Guess what? Within 2 weeks, the competition was stiff for first position. Parents didn't want their kids crying at home and taught them. Those who had parents who didn't give a rip could stay in at recess and learn from me.

Edited by - Spudwheat on 04/01/2025 04:37:12

Owen - Posted - 04/01/2025:  06:49:11

I dunno about that Mr. Wheat.   The girl's dad was a v-e-r-y highly regarded school teacher > principal.  In order to better understand, and advocate for, and help their daughter her mother got her master's degree in psychology and a career as a [highly regarded] consultant for the school division ensued.  As far as I know their son is/was a superior student, university athlete and eventually an educational administrator.  So, not to be snarky, I don't know how the obvious fact that the parents were inexcusably lazy, or didn't give a rip, went right over my head.  

Fwiw, so far as anybody could determine, the daughter's skill with remembering dates came from something other than being taught ... I don't know where/how the "emotional experience" fit in or how much importance she attached to the various things in her life.

Like I previously mentioned, "... maybe everybody is neurodivergent ... to some degree or another, in some aspect or another, etc."

Edited by - Owen on 04/01/2025 06:57:37

steve davis - Posted - 04/01/2025:  08:29:14

Play with someone else as often as possible.
Every other day would be great.
Find people that are happy for you to sit in and learn by example.

The right people will encourage you.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 04/01/2025:  08:59:43

Apparently it’s not necessary to read the book to have an opinion about it.

Edited by - Laurence Diehl on 04/01/2025 09:01:15

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/01/2025:  09:17:03

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill Rogers

How about “anyone can learn to play music, but it might not be worth the effort.” Learning to play music is one thing; learning to play the music you’d like to play at the skill level you’d like to have is quite another.

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You're describing the difference between making music and being a musician.

Learning to play one song on some instrument is not the same as being someone who plays that instrument.

jsinjin - Posted - 04/01/2025:  17:33:36

I did buy and read the book by Josh even though I had canceled my subscription to Brainjo Clawhammer Academy. I did pay for three full months and did not skip the activities. I did find the book filled with useful points on practice. But the program didn’t work for me. That’s n=1 experiences and is quite anecdotal. When I joined that first no picker left behind (which I was left miles and miles behind) session I realized that his method worked for a lot of people as there were probably a hundred or more on the call.

But I would say the book is similar to other useful books I’ve read on chess, coding, and even one by Aryton Senna on race car driving.

Semantically the definition of a musician isn’t at all what the book is about. It’s about learning to play music which is what he shares methodology for.

I have spent my life in fields where there was no subjectivity. Things are right or wrong, complete or incomplete, efficient or inefficient but almost never elegant or beautiful. Music has passion and beauty and the great practitioners seem to have dug into things so deeply that people are continuously impressed because it’s so hard to do. Once I publish a paper or an outcome from a study anyone can do it and there isn’t really anything exciting or interesting about watching me do it again. Music is about sharing the talent. I am just content to not develop and spend decades developing the talent beyond 30-60 min per day as I have other priorities.

Spudwheat - Posted - 04/01/2025:  18:35:35

quote:

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Originally posted by Owen

I dunno about that Mr. Wheat.   The girl's dad was a v-e-r-y highly regarded school teacher > principal.  In order to better understand, and advocate for, and help their daughter her mother got her master's degree in psychology and a career as a [highly regarded] consultant for the school division ensued.  As far as I know their son is/was a superior student, university athlete and eventually an educational administrator.  So, not to be snarky, I don't know how the obvious fact that the parents were inexcusably lazy, or didn't give a rip, went right over my head.  

Fwiw, so far as anybody could determine, the daughter's skill with remembering dates came from something other than being taught ... I don't know where/how the "emotional experience" fit in or how much importance she attached to the various things in her life.

Like I previously mentioned, "... maybe everybody is neurodivergent ... to some degree or another, in some aspect or another, etc."

 

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Okay, not to argue, but here is some observations based on personal experience. I was a math/science teacher for over 15 years. I have seen many things. Yes, there are very rare cases where a student suffers from a challenging idiosyncracy. To put it in perspective, after handling literally over a thousand students on both sides of the country, I had exactly one. HIs deficiency was not in math, it was in language arts. He was a delightful 5th grader who could not take auditory information and transcribe it into written word. For example, he couldn't take a spelling test. Did he know how to spell the words? Yes. He could orally spell the words, but he couldn't write them. He was accommodated as such. 

That being said, I have seen well-respected school teachers/administrators expect exceptions for their personal children. I have seen this more often than not. There is almost always the expectation for the teacher to flex and pass, than expect the child to learn the task at hand. For years, I was unflinching on the requirement that all students must know their basic times tables. I know this is different from making change, but bear with me. I heard every excuse in the book: She just CAN'T learn them; why would he need to, he's got a calculator in his pocket; You're picking on my child; etc... The parents themselves did not know their times tables. They fought fiercely to have their children exempted from this horrific task that would enable them mathematical proficiency. For the record, my son was my own student. In 4th grade he didn't know his times tables. I flunked him. He finally figured it out and studied and passed. (a little deprivation of freedom to do what he wanted works amazingly).* This is where the emotional attachment occurs: "If you don't learn _____, you can't do _____. 

Parents don't want to parent. They want it automatic. 

To give you perspective of my experience and background, I have taught every single environment that one could conjure: Public, Private, Charter, Urban, Rural, Small classes, Large classes (student loads of over 125 some years), and Home Schooling; From Pre-K to 10th grade math. I have seen every type of student and work ethic; in addition to the shift in parents from pro-education to pro-passing a kid under all circumstances. I can tell you when a child's birthday falls based on how they perform in math in 5th grade, based on how they handle the abstraction of numbers. When I was teaching, I never had a problem to be hired and was often recruited by schools to start up or straighten out programs in math and science.

In closing, is it possible that this young lady was unable to attach value to money? Yes. Is it possible that she was unable to make change in the mathematical appropriate year? (usually 2nd gade) Yes. Should the towel be thrown in and everybody move on? No. This should be a consistent task that is explained or experienced in many ways. Giving up and saying, she/he just can't do it is unhealthy for the child. Maybe at an older age she will get it. 

The genetic make-up/IQ/work characteristics of the brother have no bearing on the daughter. Our daughter was smooth sailing and ended up getting a doctorate.

*Our son, who couldn't say his name upon entrance to school had profound issues with speaking.  This severely affected his ability read. He also had dysgraphia. He couldn't take notes from the board. I couldn't give up. The school wanted to accommodate him to the point of  passing him. This would have limited his future. The day he graduated from HS, I cried. Why? Because he had to fight so hard to get to that day. -- Fast forward, today he is a pilot flying for a major airline. Miracles can happen, but sometimes they require alot of prayer and fighting with everything you've got for the kid's future. 

Side note: That's MRS. Spuwheat to you... 

Spudwheat - Posted - 04/01/2025:  18:40:30

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Apparently it’s not necessary to read the book to have an opinion about it.

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I agree that opining on something based on the other skills that a person presents, seems unfair. I just thought the book is a great read. A cheap solution to many questions that people might have about learning and practicing. Personally, I have a bit of a hard time with Josh's teaching style, but that doesn't mean that he can't write an excellent book that combines two very different skills that complement each other. 

Spudwheat - Posted - 04/01/2025:  18:50:30

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

Music has passion and beauty and the great practitioners seem to have dug into things so deeply that people are continuously impressed because it’s so hard to do. Music is about sharing the talent. I am just content to not develop and spend decades developing the talent beyond 30-60 min per day as I have other priorities.

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The passion and beauty is defined by the practitioner. It appears that you do not have a goal of becoming a musician, which is fine. It is unrealistic to have this goal, as very few can make a living at it. That being said, your posts seem to indicate that you do not enjoy what you are doing, so what is your goal? In my case, it is the challenge of learning the instrument. My goal is to play it respectively. The thought of being on any "stage" or playing a "concert" is terrifying. Maybe that will change. I just focus on form and sound. I thought the book was helpful because it identifies many things that people learning instruments do and how to handle them.

jsinjin - Posted - 04/01/2025:  19:15:49

I thoroughly love practicing the banjo. I do it every day. I love using the tuner, I love performing patterns, I love to practice hitting strings with the same force, loudness and trying complex patterns with my left hand in fretting. I love practicing with strum machine and varying the speed while trying to maintain the notes I’m playing. I love my weekly lessons and love to play “Molly / Polly put the kettle on”.

I don’t like to try and plink out a song by ear, I don’t understand how to hear chord changes. I don’t understand hot to tune by ear or hear if my instrument is out of tune. I don’t like that many songs in clawhammer style although some I do like. This song called lost gander is fascinating to me because of the use of the overtones in the chiming (it’s way too advanced for me). I definitely don’t enjoy playing in groups with others and don’t like the idea of playing for others. It’s not that I wish I could but I don’t have the courage to do those things, I actively want to avoid doing them much the same as how a person might not want to take up ballet or mixed martial arts. I am not afraid of those things but I really don’t want to do them. Same thing with playing in groups randomly trying not pick up songs based on intonation and reading the body language and nods of others. I play all my songs at 40-50 bpm and only with intense concentration physically saying every note in my head from memory one note at a time. Ther is no way I’m going to ever get that type of playing into the jams I’ve attended where people play at hundreds of beats per minute, no one even discusses the next song and everyone seems to know exactly what they are playing and sound like virtuosos. I’m more a symphony guy where there’s a program and a conductor and all the notes come from sheet music.

Pix5String - Posted - 04/01/2025:  19:28:38

I just received the book. Report to follow.

Willie

Owen - Posted - 04/01/2025:  19:35:02

MRS. Spudwheat.... your teaching experience is certainly more varied than mine, though it looks like I might have put in a few more years than you.   

I simply used the case of my friends' daughter to illustrate what I'd posted previously, and reiterated in that post: ".... maybe everybody is neurodivergent... to some degree or another, in some aspect or another, etc."

I included the bit about the son to point out that the parents weren't a couple of n'er do well slackers ... in fact I'm pretty confident you'd be hard-pressed to find better parents and better people in general .... present company included.    

I mentioned that the girl's mom had taken further education in psychology so she [they?] could better understand and help their daughter and your takeaway from that is: "Giving up and saying, she/he just can't do it is unhealthy for the child."   

Hopefully I've said all I have to say on the matter* ............ have the last word if you so desire.

* unless you're asking for clarification. 

Edited by - Owen on 04/01/2025 19:50:27

Spudwheat - Posted - 04/02/2025:  02:14:04

quote:

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Originally posted by Owen

MRS. Spudwheat.... your teaching experience is certainly more varied than mine, though it looks like I might have put in a few more years than you.   

I simply used the case of my friends' daughter to illustrate what I'd posted previously, and reiterated in that post: ".... maybe everybody is neurodivergent... to some degree or another, in some aspect or another, etc."

I included the bit about the son to point out that the parents weren't a couple of n'er do well slackers ... in fact I'm pretty confident you'd be hard-pressed to find better parents and better people in general .... present company included.    

I mentioned that the girl's mom had taken further education in psychology so she [they?] could better understand and help their daughter and your takeaway from that is: "Giving up and saying, she/he just can't do it is unhealthy for the child."   

Hopefully I've said all I have to say on the matter* ............ have the last word if you so desire.

* unless you're asking for clarification. 

 

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I do agree with your statement about neurodivergent. Yes, excellent parents can still produce a child who has a problem, including myself. I do think you may have missed my point which is: Many parents, today, try to justify their kid's lackluster performance. Obviously this is not the case here. You would be stunned at how many kids are on 504 accommodations, when all they need is standards set by parents. What ever happened to the kid? 

Owen - Posted - 04/02/2025:  08:01:32

Is the intent of the 504 legislation being abused or misapplied?

What proportion of students [statewide or nationally] qualify for that accommodation? I might not be as stunned as you think/assume.

I hope you're not using this definition of stunned 

"stunned

a saying in Newfoundland, Canada that means stupid

Johnny is so stunned that he cannot tie his shoelaces without help. He's an idiot."

[Though, fwiw,  it wasn't limited to Newfieland ... 'twas common enough in high school in west-central Man-ee-toe-bah in the 60s.]

Edited by - Owen on 04/02/2025 08:04:35

DRL777 - Posted - 04/02/2025:  08:08:33

Or in Australia, he's a squib

jsinjin - Posted - 04/02/2025:  11:55:29

Or in Texas “the boy ain’t right”

-Hank Hill

banjoak - Posted - 04/02/2025:  15:22:14

quote:

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Originally posted by dbrooks

Josh Turknett's tab arrangements generally don't appeal to me for one reason or another, and I haven't had a lesson with him so I cannot comment on his teaching style.  However, I have found his thoughts about the learning process and how to engage our brains and nervous systems very helpful as a teacher with my classes and with individual students.  He discounts both the "born with it" idea and the idea that you need 10,000 hours of practice to master a skill.  That has given many of my students hope and an appreciation for short-term goals.  His advice on approaching a new skill, whether playing the banjo or riding a bike, stresses the importance of how you learn, how you practice, how you set your goals, etc.

Bottom line for me: I find his advice and insights about the learning process very helpful to me as a teacher.

David

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The comment "how you learn" is a factor, and related to that is process "learning how to learn". 

Self-directed learning model involves the process and goal how to learn. With that, seek what others provide, books or teachers, but don't have to be all or nothing. Often can find info/concepts/insights that are useful; even if some info isn't much, or simply disagree.