jsinjin - Posted - 02/09/2025:  07:39:33

I enjoy the very technical music aspects of my banjo. I like the concept of knowing each note as I play from fret to fret and I particularly enjoy practice of music up and down the neck almost in a classical style like scales. My introduction has been clawhammer but that style doesn’t lend itself to music notes and reading composition as much as listening and learning flow of the songs.

Does anyone work with any classical music as though a tablature of music similar to a piano is played with banjo?

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/09/2025:  08:04:18

There is a classical banjo website that may have just what you're looking for. Unfortunately, right now I can't remember/find it. Hopefully, someone will know the URL and post it for you.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 02/09/2025:  08:22:41

There is classical and then there is classic banjo, both of which use standard notation by default.

jsinjin - Posted - 02/09/2025:  09:08:00

Thanks. I’m actually not wanting to play classical music and I may just be on the wrong website altogether. I like to play my banjo. I have learned clawhammer style with the claw hand and striking and thumb and it’s fun. I have not found that I enjoy the songs and jamming at all. But I have loved converting songs with notes and chords into this style. I don’t enjoy plinking it out and figuring out a riff or song by ear but I have practiced a ton playing each fret and chord in each tuning and making myself know every note and chord as I play them and I’m getting faster and faster at that. I will take a program used for piano and show three notes in tablature any try to play them not by listening but by knowing where they are in the frets and in that tuning. I realize this isn’t clawhammer and it isn’t classical. I’m actually wanting to talk to some of the people who take up banjo and don’t want to learn by jamming or listening and want to learn music theory and sight reading. Not specially in classical but in any genre. If you’re unsure it’s ok. I’ve just noticed a few people like me starting banjo , wanting to learn from tablature and wanting music theory and I thought I might reach out to those beginnners and work with them and we can share insights and talk on here.

trapdoor2 - Posted - 02/09/2025:  09:34:53

Classic banjo (as opposed to "classical") is 19th Cent. popular music, written for the 5-string and played fingerstyle. Almost all was published in standard notation.

I convert it to Tab. Generically, it is ragtime, waltzes, polkas, marches, mazurkas & schottisches, etc. Go to "classic-banjo.ning.com" and check it out.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 02/09/2025:  09:35:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

There is a classical banjo website that may have just what you're looking for. Unfortunately, right now I can't remember/find it. Hopefully, someone will know the URL and post it for you.

---

I don't know of any website dedicated to classical music on the banjo.  Perhaps you are confusing the classic banjo website which is dedicated to popular music.  Many people make the error of thinking that just because notation is used it is "classical".  People looking for "classical music" will be disappointed as they will find very little if any, usually the closest will be romantic era. 

I think the closest thing would be John Bullard's website johnbullard.com 

Joel Hooks - Posted - 02/09/2025:  09:39:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Thanks. I’m actually not wanting to play classical music and I may just be on the wrong website altogether. I like to play my banjo. I have learned clawhammer style with the claw hand and striking and thumb and it’s fun. I have not found that I enjoy the songs and jamming at all. But I have loved converting songs with notes and chords into this style. I don’t enjoy plinking it out and figuring out a riff or song by ear but I have practiced a ton playing each fret and chord in each tuning and making myself know every note and chord as I play them and I’m getting faster and faster at that. I will take a program used for piano and show three notes in tablature any try to play them not by listening but by knowing where they are in the frets and in that tuning. I realize this isn’t clawhammer and it isn’t classical. I’m actually wanting to talk to some of the people who take up banjo and don’t want to learn by jamming or listening and want to learn music theory and sight reading. Not specially in classical but in any genre. If you’re unsure it’s ok. I’ve just noticed a few people like me starting banjo , wanting to learn from tablature and wanting music theory and I thought I might reach out to those beginnners and work with them and we can share insights and talk on here.

---

Go directly to eBay and buy "Mel Bay's Banjo Method, Concert Style," by Frank C. Bradbury.  I recommend getting the original pink and blue two volume set over the current version.  The current version was combined into one and they got the page order wrong in the first half. 

Look around and you can get it for about $5 a volume.  Then start at page one and go from there.  Work through the book completely and you will be able to play any published solo you want to.  Tens of thousands of pieces of music were published for the regular banjo and most of it is now in public domain-- free to use as you own it. 

jsinjin - Posted - 02/09/2025:  09:46:36

Ha!

I have that one. I actually bought a rather large library of banjo books (very few music and Theo ry books seem to be out there on it). Banjo is not like piano I've noticed. The number of theory and how to improve technical movement and playing and exercises is immense in that instrument but it is also much harder to take camping and play on a mountainside. But yes I have that book and have moved through it. I think what I'm most hoping to do is to be ablt to pick up a piece of music in standard notations and sight read on the banjo much the same as a pianist or violin player can. Not specifically for classical music. If I like led Zeppelin Kashmir, can I have ick up the guitar tablature or piano tablature and play it in clawhammer style from those tabs easily by reading the music with little knowledge of the song. That's the kind of interpretation I'm hoping to learn. I have a terrible ear for music. I don't recognize chord changes and I've been through that discussion too many times here. I dislike listening to music but I want so.much to be able to play a few songs on the banjo in clawhammer style for camping and be able to play a song from tab by myself. Learning the technical sight reading from standard notation insheet music but applied to the banjo in clawhammer style.

maurodanielrossi - Posted - 02/09/2025:  10:15:28

Hi there, I learned to play bluegrass banjo in Italy by listening to Eric Weissberg, Bill Keith and Carl Jackson. As I became a little more confident, Bill Keith jazz arrangements had become my Holy Grail. I have no formal music theory training, but I piece together all the info I can get (typically from piano scores) and try to adjust it to banjo. This is what I learned: theory is universal, obviously, the banjo fretboard is not as expansive as a piano keyboard, I needed to learn what notes can be left out in an extended chord to achieve the same (piano) harmony. I use/d brute force, Strum Machine and TablEdit until I hit the right result. In my case, I doubt there is an easier path. When there is a lack of formal music education, I guess the above applies to any style of banjo playing.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/09/2025:  11:25:04

If you read musical notation for the piano, you can take any classical sheet music and adapt it to your banjo as long as you understand where the notes are on the banjo.

I have done that with a few classical pieces I wanted to learn to play. You do have to figure out the melody notes if there are a lot of chorded notes in the sheet music, but other than that, it's fairly easy to sight read and figure out for banjo.

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/09/2025:  13:39:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I think what I'm most hoping to do is to be ablt to pick up a piece of music in standard notations and sight read on the banjo much the same as a pianist or violin player can. Not specifically for classical music. If I like led Zeppelin Kashmir, can I have ick up the guitar tablature or piano tablature and play it in clawhammer style from those tabs easily by reading the music with little knowledge of the song. That's the kind of interpretation I'm hoping to learn.

---

I believe the answer is no.

(And to get our vocabulary straight: piano music is not "tablature." It's standard notation. Guitar "tablature" exists, but is useless for banjo since there are 6 strings and they're tuned differently. I think you probably mean sheet music for guitar.)

Of course it's possible to pick up a piece of sheet music, read it, and play the linear melody on a banjo -- by picking the individual notes in sequence, either bare-fingered or with a pick.

But clawhammer -- and three-finger, for that matter -- is not a style of banjo playing designed or intended for the literal playing of linear melodies. As you should have discovered by now, clawhammer hints at a melody and fills in space between melody notes with notes from the current chord or other embellishments to create an "arrangement" of the musical piece. I don't play clawhammer, so I lack the vocabulary to name all the hand motions that sound notes.

But my point remains: A linear, top-line, lead sheet, melody in standard notation does not include any information about the non-melody accompaniment notes you would play in a truly banjoistic clawhammer (or three-finger) arrangement. If the sheet music includes the chord names above the melody, that's a help. But it doesn't tell you what to play. You have to draw on your own banjo vocabulary to decide what to do with that chord while you're playing the melody. A banjo musician would draw on their experience to figure out which melody notes to keep, move or drop altogether in creating their banjoistic arrangement.

If the music you're reading is a piano score with additional non-melody notes in the treble and bass clefs, that provides even more information on how one particular accompaniment supports the melody. (The one particular accompaniment you're reading). But that's going to be on piano, not clawhammer banjo. I'm going out on a limb to say that piano treble and bass clef accompaniments to melody do not translate directly to clawhammer banjo.

I've gone this far without even mentioning that piano is a linear instrument, low notes to the left high note to the right, with only one place to play each note. Banjo is a parallel instrument. Each string presents its own opportunities for multiple scales from low frets to high. Or across strings. And there are multiple locations to play most notes the banjo is capable of. Which means that the essence of clawhammer banjo (and three finger) lies not in only playing the right notes but playing the right version of each note.

Which leads to . . .

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

Learning the technical sight reading from standard notation in sheet music but applied to the banjo in clawhammer style.

---

You cannot read standard notation and see at a glance the right place to play those notes on banjo to produce on the fly a clawhammer arrangement.

Yes, as mentioned elsewhere, sheet music for "classic" three-finger banjo of the late 19th to early 20th century was written in standard notation with a way to indicate fretboard location. I believe this was done with small numbers adjacent to the heads of the notes. These numbers indicated the fret. String would be obvious since that note would exist at the indicated fret on only one string.

Clawhammer and three-finger banjo music is written in tablature because that system works much better in conveying where to fret the notes and what to do with your striking or picking hand. I know there are those that disagree. 

jsinjin - Posted - 02/09/2025:  13:50:53

I am gong to continue to work on my banjo this way for the joy I am getting of figuring out whatever I can. I truly dislike playing in groups and being part of a historic style of music. I love playing my banjo and absolutely love practicing and love the use of the clawhammer technique to play. I also love interpreting a piece of music slowly learning note after note. I know very little of melody because I don’t enjoy much music.

I don’t want to switch from banjo as any instrument as I like my instrument, spent a lot of money on it and really appreciate the hours of playing. I have really disliked this forum’s approach of try and fail and listen and play with others as the basis for music. It seems to work in a survivor bias meaning that for those whom it works for it works very well the rest weren’t trying hard enough.

jsinjin - Posted - 02/09/2025:  14:01:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by maurodanielrossi

Hi there, I learned to play bluegrass banjo in Italy by listening to Eric Weissberg, Bill Keith and Carl Jackson. As I became a little more confident, Bill Keith jazz arrangements had become my Holy Grail. I have no formal music theory training, but I piece together all the info I can get (typically from piano scores) and try to adjust it to banjo. This is what I learned: theory is universal, obviously, the banjo fretboard is not as expansive as a piano keyboard, I needed to learn what notes can be left out in an extended chord to achieve the same (piano) harmony. I use/d brute force, Strum Machine and TablEdit until I hit the right result. In my case, I doubt there is an easier path. When there is a lack of formal music education, I guess the above applies to any style of banjo playing.

---

This is exactly what I have been doing.  I'm using strum machine and tab edit as well.  I don't find it easy but this is the exact route I have been doing.   I typically take a couple of days to transcribe and plink out a song.   It's actually fun for me.

if you ever want to share techniques let me know.

j

jsinjin - Posted - 02/09/2025:  14:03:31

quote:

---

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

If you read musical notation for the piano, you can take any classical sheet music and adapt it to your banjo as long as you understand where the notes are on the banjo.



I have done that with a few classical pieces I wanted to learn to play. You do have to figure out the melody notes if there are a lot of chorded notes in the sheet music, but other than that, it's fairly easy to sight read and figure out for banjo.

---

This is sort of the route I have taken.  I am so terrible at melody because I know so few songs and don't listen to much music.   That's probably my biggest frustration with banjo and the repertoire of bluegrass or other music.  I just don't know any of it and don't enjoy listening to it.   My family did take me to many classical concerts when I was little and I recognize lots of symphony music and classical.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 02/09/2025:  15:32:39

Old Hickory , the system of edits for banjo music usually denote the position (fret) that certain phrases are played in, not each fret position for each note.

There is:
P for position
B for barre, usually two or more strings stopped by the first finger
PB for position barre, playing a phrase while holding a barre with the first finger.

This is just like the Guitar except the guitar uses Roman numerals for the fret position.

5th string Gs are noted by either a double stem and flag or a “x” or a “0” next to it.

Small numbers next to notes are for left hand fingering. 1 index, 2 middle, 3 ring, 4 little.

A number in a circle under a note tells you to play that note on that string. A 4 in a circle tells you to play the note on the fourth string.

Right hand fingering is noted with x or + for thumb, . For first, .. for second, … for third. With guitar this is p, i, m, a.

These edits keep the notation intact and help for initial readings and will depict how the composer or arranger played the piece. They are suggestions and may be altered based on the skill or experience of the banjoist.

banjoboyd - Posted - 02/09/2025:  15:38:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I am gong to continue to work on my banjo this way for the joy I am getting of figuring out whatever I can. I truly dislike playing in groups and being part of a historic style of music. I love playing my banjo and absolutely love practicing and love the use of the clawhammer technique to play. I also love interpreting a piece of music slowly learning note after note. I know very little of melody because I don’t enjoy much music.



I don’t want to switch from banjo as any instrument as I like my instrument, spent a lot of money on it and really appreciate the hours of playing. I have really disliked this forum’s approach of try and fail and listen and play with others as the basis for music. It seems to work in a survivor bias meaning that for those whom it works for it works very well the rest weren’t trying hard enough.

---

If you know any great musicians who never play with others, never listen to others, and have absolutely no foundation in any established musical style or body of work, I'd sure like to meet them. 

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/09/2025:  15:40:48

Thanks, Joel.

Learn something new every day.

Glad I didn't say that was definitely how it was done!

jsinjin - Posted - 02/09/2025:  15:54:13

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoboyd

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I am gong to continue to work on my banjo this way for the joy I am getting of figuring out whatever I can. I truly dislike playing in groups and being part of a historic style of music. I love playing my banjo and absolutely love practicing and love the use of the clawhammer technique to play. I also love interpreting a piece of music slowly learning note after note. I know very little of melody because I don’t enjoy much music.



I don’t want to switch from banjo as any instrument as I like my instrument, spent a lot of money on it and really appreciate the hours of playing. I have really disliked this forum’s approach of try and fail and listen and play with others as the basis for music. It seems to work in a survivor bias meaning that for those whom it works for it works very well the rest weren’t trying hard enough.

---

If you know any great musicians who never play with others, never listen to others, and have absolutely no foundation in any established musical style or body of work, I'd sure like to meet them. 

---

Absolutely no goal whatsoever of even remotely considering even wanting to be a good musician let alone great.  I, as I have stated many time, would like to learn 8-10 songs that I can play while camping around the campfire alone and play a few Christmas songs that are popular such as joy to the world, jingle bells and Santa Claus is coming to town.   I have a good book called a clawhammer Christmas that I work on directly from tab.   

 

im not doing this to become great.   I love to practice.   I have rowed daily on a very tough set of workouts for three years following coaching plans used for collegiate rowers with zero interest in ever rowing with others or ever competing.  I sketch daily with no interest in ever sharing what I draw.  I would never want to become a great musician.  It's  not my interest or focus.  I want to learn music theory and a handful of songs with no interest in being a performer.   Yall are quite mean on this forum to people who don't like jams and bei ny part of the history of a music style.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/09/2025:  16:43:16

Start importing midi, ABC etc. files into TABLEDIT and you will learn a great deal about fitting arrangements on to a banjo. Also you can see it in tab or standard notation.

banjoboyd - Posted - 02/09/2025:  17:56:37

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoboyd

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I am gong to continue to work on my banjo this way for the joy I am getting of figuring out whatever I can. I truly dislike playing in groups and being part of a historic style of music. I love playing my banjo and absolutely love practicing and love the use of the clawhammer technique to play. I also love interpreting a piece of music slowly learning note after note. I know very little of melody because I don’t enjoy much music.



I don’t want to switch from banjo as any instrument as I like my instrument, spent a lot of money on it and really appreciate the hours of playing. I have really disliked this forum’s approach of try and fail and listen and play with others as the basis for music. It seems to work in a survivor bias meaning that for those whom it works for it works very well the rest weren’t trying hard enough.

---

If you know any great musicians who never play with others, never listen to others, and have absolutely no foundation in any established musical style or body of work, I'd sure like to meet them. 

---

Absolutely no goal whatsoever of even remotely considering even wanting to be a good musician let alone great.  I, as I have stated many time, would like to learn 8-10 songs that I can play while camping around the campfire alone and play a few Christmas songs that are popular such as joy to the world, jingle bells and Santa Claus is coming to town.   I have a good book called a clawhammer Christmas that I work on directly from tab.   

 

im not doing this to become great.   I love to practice.   I have rowed daily on a very tough set of workouts for three years following coaching plans used for collegiate rowers with zero interest in ever rowing with others or ever competing.  I sketch daily with no interest in ever sharing what I draw.  I would never want to become a great musician.  It's  not my interest or focus.  I want to learn music theory and a handful of songs with no interest in being a performer.   Yall are quite mean on this forum to people who don't like jams and bei ny part of the history of a music style.

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It's not about being great, it's about setting and working toward realistic goals. But I cannot figure out what those goals of yours actually are, and I get the sense that you don't really know either. People on here are generally very nice. But you've already stated that you don't like what they are telling you, even though they are speaking from a place of experience and just trying to help you.



Imagine if you wanted to improve your drawing and went on a sketching forum to ask for advice. Let's say you wanted to get better at drawing buildings. People will tell you to start with the basics of perspective drawing. But I hate using a ruler, you reply. Okay, not a great start. So someone else says, if you don't want to do strict perspective drawing, then just practice freehanding some simple buildings. Your sense of perspective will develop over time. But I don't like simple buildings, I only want to draw...Gothic cathedrals. Not looking good. Someone else says, well, it's not ideal, but find some pictures of Gothic cathedrals you like and reproduce them. I never draw from pictures. Everything I do is original. Most people will have given up at this point. Maybe some well-meaning individual adds, I think you should study architecture if you want to draw original buildings. At least the basics. I hate architects. Don't want anything to do with all that. 



If you are bad at picking things up by ear, there are ways to get better at that. If you don't know how to adapt non-banjo music to the banjo, there are ways to get better at that. If you're not great at sightreading notation and/or tablature, there are ways to get better at that. Etc. etc. None of them have shortcuts. All of them involve doing a lot of something over time, gradually ramping up the complexity/difficulty. Musical skills do not work in isolation; getting better at one thing will lead to improvements in other areas. 

 

jsinjin - Posted - 02/09/2025:  18:24:53

"Etc. etc. None of them have shortcuts. All of them involve doing a lot of something over time, gradually ramping up the complexity/difficulty. Musical skills do not work in isolation; getting better at one thing will lead to improvements in other areas. "

I practice every day.   I absolutely love to practice.   Every single day except a couple of missed flight days.  I'm doing just fine in my playing and practicing.

My goals are written down in my notebook:

for 2025

1) get four songs known so that I can play them in clawhammer style.   (I had a goal of learning one last year and I pulled it off) all from tablature.

2) learn the songs joy to the world, I saw three ships, jingle bells and we three kings from tablature in clawhammer Christmas by Dan levensom

3) learn the basics of music theory including the circle of fifths, major scales, minor scales, the elements of harmony and scale degrees.   Be able to apply these on the banjo.

4) get much better at knowing each note when I play it on the banjo with each finger and fret in each key

5) learn to tune my banjo so that it doesn't take me 30-40 minutes to retune it with the electronic tuner when I change keys.

That's my list of goals.  I'm well on the way.   My teacher selected a song and I've learned the first measure of it and have practiced it 2400 times in the last five days since my teacher taught it to me.

i went to a jam session.  An open one in my town advertised in the parks and rec brochure meeting at the first baptist church.   It was horrifying.   15 people no greeting or introduction, they all knew each other sat down in a big circle with banjos guitars a mandolin and bass and one of those dulcimer lap things and just started music at a speed that was incomprehensible.  They knew every song at a rate that made no sense.   I didn't dare pull out my instrument.   They dididnt suggest the next song just nodded and played then all changed keys without talking and just kept going.   I have no desire to do this?!??   There wasn't even a way to follow the music.  It would have been like stepping into a prize fight against five opponents as a beginning boxer with a weeks worth of training.   And I'll state, I don't enjoy that kind of music.  It's all muddled together, I can't follow it, it doesn't sound good to me and I didn't have fun.   

 

I do have a total blast sitting and practicing.   It's so enjoyable at the end of a long day.  It makes me feel peaceful, in control, I'm learning, getting faster, more controlled and playing.    My teacher meets with me every week and I pay her very well for the 1:1 teaching.    She is completely ok that I learn this way and we are seeing improvement.  And I like figuring out notes and music theory on the banjo even if it isn't the way everyone learns by sitting behind professional musicians and learning by failing with occasional tidbits tossed their way.   That's just not fun to me.

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/09/2025:  19:59:18

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

That's my list of goals.  I'm well on the way.   My teacher selected a song and I've learned the first measure of it and have practiced it 2400 times in the last five days since my teacher taught it to me. 

---

Pease add to your list of goals:

6 - Learn to hear, recognize and predict chord changes in songs.

7 - Listen to lots of clawhammer music.

The reason for #6 is as I said many months ago and maybe even multiple times. It's great that you want to know the names of the notes on the banjo. Knowing the notes is good. But you don't need to know them the moment you're playing them. And they go by too fast for you to actually know each note you're playing as you're playing it.

It's also great that you want to know theory. The most important aspect of theory that applies to banjo is intervals. As Ira Gitlin said in a recent post in the discussion of music and math: "Music is not in the notes; it's in the relationships among the notes." Those relationships are called intervals.  The musical distance between notes. Scales are series of intervals. Melody comes from intervals. Harmony comes from intervals. Chords are combinations of intervals. Chord changes are built of multiple intervals.

These are all sounds that can be learned. I can't reliably sing any specified interval on demand. But I have enough of an ear to not only hear chord changes in songs but, once I know what key a song is in, figure out the chords and play along. I'm not bragging. I'm describing a fundamental ability of musicians, including those who play for just for fun just as you do. Developing an ear for chord changes will do many many times more for you as a clawhammer player than knowing the notes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

... I like figuring out notes and music theory on the banjo even if it isn't the way everyone learns by sitting behind professional musicians and learning by failing with occasional tidbits tossed their way.  

---

What are you talking about? This bears no resemblance to the real world.

It's not how "everyone" learns. I don't think it's how anyone learns.

banjoboyd - Posted - 02/09/2025:  20:46:02

Look, if you have clear learning targets, you are putting in your practice, you are working with a teacher, and you are seeing consistent improvement, then that's great. Keep doing that. 

You are asking us how to do a specific thing -- so specific, I'm not sure anyone really understands what you mean -- but if you had more general skill and knowledge, the answer would likely be obvious to you (and then you wouldn't have to ask). You're not there yet. We can't tell you anything useful about how to, for example, adapt piano or guitar pieces to the banjo in an artful way. The information would not mean anything to you because you don't have the necessary skills/knowledge to apply it. So for now, don't worry about it. 

And don't have such a narrow view of what you want and don't want to do with the banjo. You don't know that you don't like playing with other people. You are making an assumption based on extremely limited experience. But if you decide preemptively that you don't like something, then you'll never explore it, and you'll never really know. Avoid these kinds of self-defeating attitudes. You're not the first person to have a bad experience at an old-time jam. Go try something else. 

banjoboyd - Posted - 02/10/2025:  09:54:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

That's my list of goals.  I'm well on the way.   My teacher selected a song and I've learned the first measure of it and have practiced it 2400 times in the last five days since my teacher taught it to me. 

---

Pease add to your list of goals:

6 - Learn to hear, recognize and predict chord changes in songs.

7 - Listen to lots of clawhammer music.

The reason for #6 is as I said many months ago and maybe even multiple times. It's great that you want to know the names of the notes on the banjo. Knowing the notes is good. But you don't need to know them the moment you're playing them. And they go by too fast for you to actually know each note you're playing as you're playing it.

It's also great that you want to know theory. The most important aspect of theory that applies to banjo is intervals. As Ira Gitlin said in a recent post in the discussion of music and math: "Music is not in the notes; it's in the relationships among the notes." Those relationships are called intervals.  The musical distance between notes. Scales are series of intervals. Melody comes from intervals. Harmony comes from intervals. Chords are combinations of intervals. Chord changes are built of multiple intervals.

These are all sounds that can be learned. I can't reliably sing any specified interval on demand. But I have enough of an ear to not only hear chord changes in songs but, once I know what key a song is in, figure out the chords and play along. I'm not bragging. I'm describing a fundamental ability of musicians, including those who play for just for fun just as you do. Developing an ear for chord changes will do many many times more for you as a clawhammer player than knowing the notes.

---

^ This is very important. Approach music like learning a foreign language. Music theory is a like grammar. Is studying grammar useful? Sure, to some degree. Can you really learn a language by only studying grammar? No. You can't even get close. Knowledge of grammar is completely useless if you lack, among other things, sufficient vocabulary (in fact, a growing number of language teachers now recommend that beginners ignore grammar and focus entirely on acquiring vocabulary). 

Language is not an exercise in correctly applying grammar rules. It's communication. Likewise, music is not an exercise in correctly applying music theory. The theory is a summary/description/explanation of what experienced musicians do and how they communicate with one another, not the other way around. 



You have to develop your ear. There's no way around it. And related to what I wrote earlier, having a developed ear -- being able to hear melodies, intervals, chord changes, etc., in musical context -- is a requirement for more advanced applications like making arrangements. Or, sitting in on a jam and quickly picking up unfamiliar tunes. There is no path to getting there that is 100% (or 50%, or even 10%) music theory-based. 

jsinjin - Posted - 02/11/2025:  19:14:05

Thanks. I appreciate the thoughts. My ear is so terrible. I truly don't get songs. I've had this discussion before. Every time I take the quiz for the brainjo thing to see if you can tell which song is wrong or right (happy birthday played correct and non correct or twinkle twinkle little star played correct or non correct) I get "you have done no better than random chance are you sure you are listening". I just don't hear chord changes or differences in music. .and I don't enjoy songs. I'm truly not having a problem taking each note as I transcribe them and playing them. I'm sure it sounds wooden and is not the way others learn but it's working fine for me and for what I want to do. Which is why I started this topic. I enjoy taking a song from guitar or piano, shifting the tablature to notes thrn working to plink it out note by note on my banjo stopping to switch octaves if it is off and figuring it out note by note,

I get it, if I want to be part of a culture I need to play with others and listen to the songs over and over. I don't find the songs to be enjoyable. Of music I kinda like a couple of songs by rush from tapes back in high school and I've been to a few classical concerts. I don't enjoy live music, I don't enjoy listening to music and I'm just trying to pick up a few songs.

I appreciate all of this and I'll stop asking questions on here. I truly have zero or less interest in joining jams. It's not fun, not what I want to do and not part of any of the reasons I bought my instrument. And I'm fine with that. I also suspect there are others out there like me who just want to sit and plink out a few simple songs and patterns. I'll share my time and talents with chemistry and math but I want to keep my music learning to myself and without groups.

banjoak - Posted - 02/12/2025:  00:44:41

I am skeptical there are many others like you.

The reason most everyone else wants to play an instrument, starts with overall enjoyment from listening to music. They hear qualitative differences in music, which plays into subjective differences to enjoyment in listening; and typically use that to make active choices about what to listen to. I think for most folks, listening experience, is part of definition of  music, it's purpose.

That sense of qualitative enjoyment purpose is the foundation, inspiration and motivation to want to participate, precursor to want to put in time, energy, resources, toward learning how to play a music instrument. Most have a lot of experience and enjoyment from listening. As well plays role, influence choice of what instrument/genre/style. Most especially in adults in folk/amateur realm, making own choices. That enjoyment of listening sound, often serves as end goal; metric to give meaning/success; that what they play sounds enjoyable to them. The technical aspects, technique, theory, (while gets described more in quantitative); is not the end goal, rather just part of the means to understanding how to create that personal enjoyment experience to the sound. Often involve many subjective qualitative nuances and decisions, so need a qualitative basis as foundation. Whether that is sitting alone, porch/bedroom, or playing with another, or others; and whether CH or Classic or other.

IMO, that's where most of response to your posts, and advice are coming from; that seemingly very normal experience with listening enjoyment of music.

Can't imagine there are many folk who, start without any of that, no enjoyment, interest or indifference for music at all... and yet want to put time, energy and resources into it, nor having much success; as would be extra difficult. I suppose if idea is purely quantitative technical... not for listening or music pleasure; more akin to some exercises or pure technical challenges, achievement from precisely following any random instructions, sequence and time of events; maybe like typing or video games (such as Guitar Hero/Rock Band games); success is getting a good score. GH/RB controllers are simpler, and can be fun playing those games. Beyond that I would think a MIDI keyboard would maybe be better choice than banjo, for a lot of reasons; such as a lot more parameters you can easier control, and/or code in; as well can set up to give score top precision, less limited to range and fits better with just standard notation; can easily bring into software and analyze data, and even useful to delve a bit into studying music theory. (though not sure what point there would be to learning about music theory if doesn't involve fundamental enjoyment of music?).

Edited by - banjoak on 02/12/2025 00:55:58

B19 - Posted - 02/12/2025:  07:30:58

More power to you if you know where you want to go with it! If it changes, that's great too. I enjoy playing solo and learning new things on the banjo, even if it doesn't go beyond that. It is an escape better than anything else I have found, and similarly don't have the time or energy (or interest) for jams currently.



One word of encouragement - you will inevitably get a better ear for music by doing exactly what you are doing over time. You will surprise yourself I think, especially if you ever listen to someone else play a song you are arranging on banjo, you are actively listening which beats the pants off passive listening (how most people probably enjoy music).

Joel Hooks - Posted - 02/12/2025:  07:43:58

I've nothing to add other than this being one of the strangest discussions on here in a while.

"I don't like listening to music but want to play it". Is this intended to be a form of self flagellation?

ALCO - Posted - 02/13/2025:  05:42:01

John,



The best suggestion that I can offer, to meet what I think are your requirements, is to work assiduously through this tutor book, as it consists almost entirely of technical exercises and scales. Certainly enough for many hours of practice, without once having to play a tune.

It was written to be played using the guitar style of picking, which I strongly recommend that you learn, keeping in mind that it need not replace your current use of claw hammer technique. In the event that you were unable to persevere with the guitar style, I'm sure that the contents of the book would still be of value to you.



archive.org/details/essexcamme.../mode/1up

Edited by - ALCO on 02/13/2025 05:43:54

Lew H - Posted - 02/13/2025:  12:32:05

If you haven't come across Michael Miles, you may want to check out his materials or get in touch. He plays classical, rock, blues, and traditional stuff with clawhammer technique. The only drawback for me is he does most song in double C tuning.

Meestro - Posted - 02/14/2025:  18:34:19

I play many different tunings but have never learned tab because to me It is akin to paint by number in painting.

If I’m playing a jazz tune say in the key of F and the leader points down with 4 fingers, I know we are going into A-flat, up a minor third for the final chorus. I would need a whole new set of numbers or a capo which when I grew up, we just called it a cheater if I were using tab. Just my opinion.

My suggestion is to write to Rob McKillop who is an expert in all styles and teaching. He could, I feel best understand your goals and the possibilities for achieving them.

ScreamingVegetables - Posted - 02/15/2025:  15:32:09

quote:

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Originally posted by Texasbanjo

There is a classical banjo website that may have just what you're looking for. Unfortunately, right now I can't remember/find it. Hopefully, someone will know the URL and post it for you.

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The site for Classical Banjo is classic-banjo.ning.com/. It is both inspiring and intimidating. I am working on a composition by Joe Morley (might be called Joe Morley's cakewalk). There are many Classical Banjo players around the world, but if you're in the Fayetteville Arkansas area, look for Clark Buehling. His website: buehlingbanjo.com/. Clark is one of the best and a great guy too.

jsinjin - Posted - 02/17/2025:  12:16:23

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

I've nothing to add other than this being one of the strangest discussions on here in a while.



"I don't like listening to music but want to play it". Is this intended to be a form of self flagellation?

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It's true!   I don't enjoy music very much at all.  I don't really want to be a musician.   I have one major goal of learning music theory which I have embraced with lots of books and discussions and study.  The next is to learn 8-10 songs I can play on the banjo for myself around a campfire and then I'd like to learn some popular Christmas songs.  I very rarely listen to any music at all and always find that I feel like I'm wasting time I could be reading or working on things. In the car I listen to lectures from college courses, grand rounds and economics discussions.   I go to mass every week and avoid the services with lots of singing and accompaniment.   I really enjoy practicing music as in scales or patterns or techniques.  I picked up clawhammer because after I bought my banjo I didn't know the other type require picks.   Most of my exposure to music as a kid was classical with my family at symphony music or opera.   I briefly got really into RUSH in high school and my kids listen to lots of pop style music.  I've tried some of the clawhammer and old time stuff but it doesn't gel with me.

i have enjoyed learning the song called shady grove mostly because that modal tuning is ghostly.   But the words make no sense to me.

BlueMountain - Posted - 03/07/2025:  05:28:01

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

Ha!



I have that one. I actually bought a rather large library of banjo books (very few music and Theo ry books seem to be out there on it). Banjo is not like piano I've noticed. The number of theory and how to improve technical movement and playing and exercises is immense in that instrument but it is also much harder to take camping and play on a mountainside. But yes I have that book and have moved through it. I think what I'm most hoping to do is to be ablt to pick up a piece of music in standard notations and sight read on the banjo much the same as a pianist or violin player can. Not specifically for classical music. If I like led Zeppelin Kashmir, can I have ick up the guitar tablature or piano tablature and play it in clawhammer style from those tabs easily by reading the music with little knowledge of the song. That's the kind of interpretation I'm hoping to learn. I have a terrible ear for music. I don't recognize chord changes and I've been through that discussion too many times here. I dislike listening to music but I want so.much to be able to play a few songs on the banjo in clawhammer style for camping and be able to play a song from tab by myself. Learning the technical sight reading from standard notation insheet music but applied to the banjo in clawhammer style.

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You are unusual and have abilities that most of us don't have, while lacking some skills that others of us do have. There are a few banjo players who have both. I would recommend that you drop the idea of clawhammer and aim for a non-Scruggs three-finger style without picks using both up and down strokes. You might even try nylon strings to get fuller tone without picks. I think you will find it liberating.

jsinjin - Posted - 03/07/2025:  05:42:47

quote:. I would recommend that you drop the idea of clawhammer and aim for a non-Scruggs three-finger style without picks using both up and down strokes. You might even try nylon strings to get fuller tone without picks. I think you will find it liberating.

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Thanks so much!    I've kind of settled into a rhythm (ha-music term) of both practice and transcribing notes to frets and strings in my head.   I used to say each note and chord but now I've gotten to a point I do it mentally.  The reason I picked clawhammer is that when I bought my banjo I didn't know the other types of playing existed and when I arrived home I didn't have picks.    I kinda like the way that clawhammer makes so many notes with such small movements and with only one finger but I may look into other styles.  

Interesting, the maker of my banjo out of Texas (Chuck Lee) has one that I found at a reseller that is an Irish tenor banjo and I went to see it last week.  It's as beautiful as mine but I know nothing about that type of playing either.