jsinjin - Posted - 09/24/2024:  11:33:43

all good thanks all!  Sorry for offending!   

Edited by - jsinjin on 09/30/2024 11:01:37

Keith Billik - Posted - 09/24/2024:  12:14:22

Very few people can reliably name a chord just from hearing it, without any context- it's called perfect pitch. So don't be too hard on yourself.

Much more important is relative pitch, which is when you are able to navigate a chord progression (say, I-IV-V) as long as you are given the key of the song. This is a HUGELY important skill to have, especially in bluegrass and other folk music that is largely learned and taught by ear. Once you can hear the I, IV, and V chord, practice hearing the ii, vi, bVII, etc. - it sounds like you are perhaps already able to do at least a bit of this?

That being said, it is important to also be able to identify the quality of the chord (ie, whether it's major, minor, Dom7, etc) just by ear. 

steve davis - Posted - 09/24/2024:  13:09:25

I've never heard of identifying a chord by hearing it out of context.
I was taught to hear chord changes when knowing what key the song is in.
It's quite simple to hear the I,IV and V for the keys of C or G to start with.

It can help initially by being coached by someone who hears changes until it becomes second nature.
When a tune in the key of C changes to F it feels like the song has more to come.
When the G is played it feels like that part is nearing the end.

Once this is accomplished the Aminor,Bb or D changes can be introduced.
These choices have their own "feel".

These "feelings" are instantly transferable for the other keys.

BobbyE - Posted - 09/24/2024:  13:23:34

Take a simple song like 'Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star," or "I've Been Working on the Railroad." and write down the words on a page and then figure the chords out for each song and where the change takes place. (These songs have simple and well-known melodies so you should be able to tell what the correct chord is against the melody note). Just continue to repeat the exercise playing the correct chords. Then branch out to more complicated songs, i.e, those that have more chord changes and not necessarily a larger number of chords. Again, write out the words to those songs and then chord them out correctly and drill them into your consciousness. There is no easy way to learn to hear chord changes. It simply comes with work and repetition but having a system for learning that skill will help. Stop worrying about what you can't do now and start making progress with what you can do. Positive reinforcement and all that.  Like Steve Davis said, the same skill that you use to figure the chord changes to the two simple songs above is the same skill that you will use for songs with more chords and chord changes, even II chords and minors. 

Also, I have been playing banjo for 40+ years and doubt that I could just guess a chord just by hearing it played and don't really know what I should want to.  I can recognize if a chord is a minor or 7th but not which letter chord it might be and don't lose much sleep over it.    Chords are relational to the keys in which they are a part of.  What I can do is quickly discover the key a song is being played in and because I know the chords which make up a particular key, I can quickly be playing along to a song, even if it is one I am not too familiar with.  Hearing root notes in a chord, in my opinion, is not something to fret over regarding your lack thereof. 

Bobby

Edited by - BobbyE on 09/24/2024 13:40:59

250gibson - Posted - 09/24/2024:  14:04:25

You cannot teach yourself perfect pitch. Either you have it or don’t. Most people don’t and the very few that do do not play equal tempered instruments as to them it sounds bad.

Musicians can develop through practice the ability to hear relationships between chords. The relationship between a I chord and a IV chord will sound the same regardless of the name of the chords, ie the key the song is played in.

If a song is in the key of G major, and you hear a familiar I to IV change, you know it is changing from Gmaj to Cmaj. You know this because you know the key and you recognize the relationship between I and IV, not because you can hear a random chord out of context and name it.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/24/2024:  14:05:55

I agree with what's already been said and will add to it by saying: first, know what KEY the song is in. Once you know that, you will know what the 1, 4 and 5 chords are; i.e., key of G, 1, 4 and 5 chords are G, C D. Most songs start on the 1 chord (not always, but generally), so if you know the first chord is going to be a G, you have a 50-50 chance of guessing the next chord; hint: it will be either a C or D in traditional bluegrass music.



When I was learning to hear chords and chord changes, I would take a song I knew or was learning and write down the chord SEQUENCE thus:



1 1 1 1

5 5 5 5

4 4 1 1

5 5 1 1

(or whatever the sequence was on the song)



I did this on every song I learned and then compared them. I was amazed at how many songs have the exact sequence but different melodies. That helped me immeasurably in learning/hearing chords.



Also, it was much easier for me to hear/play chord sequences to VOCALS, not instrumentals.



You might give my idea a try and see if it helps you understand and hear the chords as they change.



And, as an aside: I doubt I could tell you what a chord was just by hearing someone strum it, not knowing the key or anything else about it. So, knowing the key signature is a large part of the battle.

Also, as you listen to songs, listen to see if someone moves notes up or down into a chord, that will give you another hint that (a) the chord is about to change and (b) it's going either up or down to another chord, according to what's happening notewise. 

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 09/24/2024 14:09:53

Old Hickory - Posted - 09/24/2024:  14:52:23

And adding on to Sherry's great post . . .

Were you to change -- or "transpose" -- a song from the key of G to the key of C, while the chords then become I = C,  IV = F, V = G    the degree (and therefore relative sound) of the changes such as  I to IV,  I to V,  V to I  and so on, will be the same. Trust me.

This is why the goal of ear training as described in previous messages is not to learn only the specific sounds of G changing to C, D changing to G, and so on . . . it's to learn the sounds of changes in relation to the chords' functions -- as described by their numbers.

Once you internalize that, you can play by ear in any key as long as you know (1) the key and (2) the first chord. 

You can try this for yourself. Stroke, pinch, or strum the chords to Bile Dem Cabbage in G. Maybe only two per measure (as on the syllables "Bile" and "cab" and so on). Then do it in C. I gave you chords above.  It's a start towrd hearing how one song can be played in different keys and sound essentially the same, except higher or lower depending on the direction of transpotion.

-  -  -  -  -  -  -

Final comment:

Because you titled this thread "Troble hearing root of chord" I want to address that specific point -- in a way that's not entirely about hearing chord changes.

The root, as you asked about, is the "I" or name note of the chord. We typically think of it as the bottom note. And in the so-called "root position" of a chord, it is. For example: G-B-D (I-III-V) is a root position G Major chord. If you play it in a G-tuned banjo, you can play only strings 3-2-1 and G will be the lowest note you hear.

In G tuning, we can also play a satisfying root position D Major chord. Use the open 4th string and however you fret the rest of the chord, a low D is on the bottom.

But not so with C Major. The common fingering for C Major in G tuning is 2-0-1-2.  The "root" is the C note on 2nd string. With an E (the III) as the lowest note, this is a "first inversion" C Major chord. And that's as far as I'm going with that.

The reason I go into all this is that if you're listening to a source recording that's only banjo with no guitar or bass accompaniment, then there's not always going to be a solid root note for your beginner's ear to grab on to.  And if the melody is not the root -- which it often is not -- then it's up to you to sense where the root is.  Imagine you're in G tuning, the chord goes to C, but the melody on that chord change is on a G note. You'll probably hit the melody note, so that won's signal the root. You'll hit the root as part of whatever your clawhammer stroke does next. Not being a clawhammer player, I have no idea what that is.

steve davis - Posted - 09/24/2024:  15:45:05

The G chord in the key of G has a neutral feel to it.It's not implying that it's going anywhere.It needs "escape" notes to lead the ear to the next change

Greg Denton - Posted - 09/25/2024:  05:02:51

A lot of good advice here.
I think of the I, IV, and V chords and "chord function" this way
The I chord is the "Tonic" - I think of it as the HOME chord. The songs comes to rest on this chord. It feels like the song (or the verse, or chorus) comes to and end or finish.
The IV chord is the "Subdominant" - I think of it as the DEPARTURE chord. The song seems to leave home with this chord. There is tension, but it's a building tension. The feeling is that you've gone away from home, out for adventure. You may not know where you're going, exactly, but you know you're not at home anymore. There is a kind of anticipation.
The V chord is the "Dominant" - I think of it as the HOMESICK chord. This chord wants to go home, it wants you to go back to the Tonic. Unlike the IV chord, which anticipates further adventure, the V chord knows where it wants to go. It has the ultimate tension, especially if it is a V7 chord (which has a dissonant, unstable sound). The V7 chord resolves to the I chord. In a song it usually precedes the I chord and the song comes to a resting spot or to a finish. That V7 chord, all by itself, can tell you what key you are in.
The minor chords also play the HOME, DEPARTURE, HOMESICK game. They can substitute for the I, IV, and V chords.
TONIC: I chord = "Home", vi chord = "Cottage" (home away from home), iii chord = "Campsite" (temporary shelter).
SUBDOMINANT: IV = departure, ii chord = a sadder departure (leaving loved ones behind?)
DOMINANT: V = "Homesick", V7 = "Really Homesick", vii diminished = "Really Homesick".
Thinking of "chord function" this way helps me to feel the kind of tension or resolution of the chords and how they lead me through a song. And to identify what any given chord is likely to be.

steve davis - Posted - 09/25/2024:  05:12:45

As you get used to hearing their interactions the feeling of where the chords are headed becomes nearly instantaneous.

wrench13 - Posted - 09/25/2024:  05:27:55

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

As you get used to hearing their interactions the feeling of where the chords are headed becomes nearly instantaneous.

---

Correctamundo SteveD.  I find one can hear chord changes coming a mile away.  Thats allowed me to play with a lot of bands dead cold as a sideman.  Some genre's are not so easy, like hard core jazz, but BG and C&W?  Chord changes are almost telegraphed ahead of tme.  Just takes a lot of listening.  

 But identifying a free standing chord, out of context with the rest of the song - totally different.   What with inversions of the same chord on the fretboard, even more difficult.  I honestly don't see what benefit that skill would have. 

steve davis - Posted - 09/25/2024:  05:45:12

No one thing is the answer to everything.
Hearing a new piece for the first time demands a good short-term memory when unexpected chords and timing happen.
Some tunes/songs require more practice than others.
Dad used to say "I like listening to jazz,but I don''t get the chords."

Country,folk,bluegrass and the blues are geared to being easily played at their first listening.
Jazz requires homework.

steve davis - Posted - 09/25/2024:  06:02:05

I don't understand the need to know the "root" of a chord.A chord is the interaction of 3 or more notes played at the same time.

I like chord melodies and harmonies.Chords used as individual notes.

Edited by - steve davis on 09/25/2024 06:02:41

reubenstump - Posted - 09/25/2024:  06:27:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

No one thing is the answer to everything.

 

---

Ostensibly, 42 should work.

jsinjin - Posted - 09/25/2024:  06:49:17

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I don't understand the need to know the "root" of a chord.A chord is the interaction of 3 or more notes played at the same time.

I like chord melodies and harmonies.Chords used as individual notes.

---

My desire to learn the root of the chord came because I've been having a lot of non fun frustration trying to learn to recognize chord changes in songs.  Even simple ones are very frustrating to me.   I was reading a technical article about ear training and it (the article) talked about identifying the root of the chord as a step.   But that was even more confusing.   In my "bile dem cabbage down" exercise I can hear the chord changes basically from memory after playing the song several thousand times (literally) along with a recording of myself yelling the chord changes.   But if I listen to another piece of music I suppose I can tell when the song changes pitch but guessing what the chord is or how it shifts is completely alien to me.

my assumption about learning music was that I would be learning to read music and play it.   The actual journey has felt like a frustrating experience of random guessing about what chord might come next.   The interpretation of the songs feels alien, random and without any context.   That's probably a severe lack of music in my life.  I literally don't listen to and enjoy music; I skip live music venues, never have the radio on, study and write code in silence for a career and listen to lectures and podcasts for all travel and time.   

 

believe me I'm trying.   I simply have never been this frustrated and I teach quantum mechanics and group theory matrix algebra at a college for part of my career and lead advanced data science applications at Dell for the bulk of my job.   Languages come easily to me as does sketching and art.   But I can't hear a song difference from one to another or predict what comes next from any sort of flow.   I can sort of get it from memory after several thousand tries but this doesn't seem to me to be the most efficient way to learn music.  The one jam session I attended felt like a group of virtuosos playing songs so fast, so technical and so alien to me that even grasping what they were doing had no context at all as though the playing was incredible technically but unraveling it would take me years to get to each note and what comes next.  

 

in brainjo sessions, Josh would play two or three notes and give the group a minute to get it and I felt I was facing selecting three notes out of hundreds with no way to get any context at all.

his site has for example two versions of happy birthday played and they both sound fine.  One is "right" and one is "wrong" but I just can't tell the reasons why one is right and one is wrong.  

 

so I'm seeking anything I can.   University of north Texas music conservatory in Denton has a lot of faculty in jazz and performance and I've spoken to several faculty there about learning this type of technique and I'm grasping at whatever I can pedagogically to practice.   I realize that nothing valuable and difficult comes easily but this is about as much fun as randomly selecting grains of sand and sorting them and having someone else tell you that they're sorted right or wrong but you have no idea why they are right or wrong or how to tell.   I'm looking for some structure to learn what I'm missing in the "hearing" the song.   

 

I absolutely learned and memorized the Nashville numbering system in relation to chords in the key, I completely learned by memorizing every single chord in five different tunings in f banjo and can find them instantly up and down the neck.   I can now read tablature and have some muscle memory for converting the tablature into various techniques.   But I can't hear a G chord or a C chord or a d chord in a song and guess what that chord is or what comes next and when in a song even if it is played right in front of me.   

 

that's my gap right now that I'm trying to solve.   

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/25/2024:  07:20:35

the Nashville system for melodies

banjohangout.org/archive/279248

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/25/2024:  08:25:00

I understand not being able to hear chords. When I first started jammin' with others, I had the same problem. It all sounded the same to me. A very nice, understanding guitar picker showed me some guitar chords: G, C, D, A, E and said to watch the rhythm guitar picker and when he/she changed chords, you change, too. That helped a lot, although I was always a beat behind at first. I think listening and watching fingers change chords helped me anticipate chord changes. You might try that technique and see if it helps you to start hearing chords.

We used to travel a lot in our motorhome and there was always a bluergrass project on the CD and I'd listen and try to decipher chord changes, backup styles and hot licks on the banjo. I remember the first time I actually heard and knew what a certain lick was by hearing it played on a song and I was elated! I was beginning to hear melodies and chords. Don't know if that would help you or not, but it certainly helped me.

steve davis - Posted - 09/25/2024:  08:33:32

The traditional way of hearing chord changes and playing by ear is to "apprentice" under someone that knows that way of playing.

My Mom played piano beautifully,but needed sheet music.

My Dad played pedal steel,guitar,banjo,piano,clarinet and saxophone all by ear.Couldn't read music or state any kind of theory.He was also a really good natural tenor singer.He had a good ear and good musical taste.I was so lucky to play those years with him.

Mom didn't have anything to say about "feeling" chord changes.I learned that by my Dad saying the chords as they happened in whatever 3 or 4 chord Country song we were playing.

His only words were "Nobody knows why,but someday you'll know when to change on your own.Let me know when that is so I can stop having to tell you."



When it isn't the chord you thought it would be remember that and play the other chord next time through.

Playing by ear has a lot to do with short-term memory/correction as you go.

The first time through a new tune should be dedicated to making sure you hear where the changes are and applying that correctly the second time through.



Music theory has nothing to do with hearing chord changes,in my opinion.It's something that simply washes over the senses triggering a response.

A bit Pavlovian,I suppose.

Edited by - steve davis on 09/25/2024 08:39:19

Dan Gellert - Posted - 09/25/2024:  08:53:15

Which note is the root depends entirely on context. If you play a random 3-note major or minor chord, your ear will recognize the 1-3-5 relationship of the notes, but if you're playing that chord against a melody note that isn't one of those 3, it gets way more complicated.

Add an e note to your G chord. Is that now a G6 or Em7? All depends on what the guitar and/or bass is playing.

steve davis - Posted - 09/25/2024:  10:26:35

Banjo partial chords fit over many chords without needing to know their correct name.

BobbyE - Posted - 09/25/2024:  11:07:04

>> But if I listen to another piece of music I suppose I can tell when the song changes pitch but guessing what the chord is or how it shifts is completely alien to me.<<

If you are wanting to be a good and competent bluegrass banjo player I believe you are way over complicating this matter. Yes, it takes a good deal of time and work to learn to recognize chord changes but that is a part of learning to play the banjo. Do you know the chords, especially the 1st, IVth, and Vth. chords of the major keys that most bluegrass songs are played in? If you don't it is no wonder you don't know which chord is next. If you do, then by far the most standard of bluegrass songs will go from the 1st chord to the IVth or Vth chord when it changes. Since there are only two chords there, you have a 50% chance of guessing right, and if you don't, it will be obvious from an auditory experience. While there are bluegrass songs more complicated than that, there are a plenty that are not. Forget root notes to chords and all that theory stuff for right now and pick a few bluegrass standard songs that you can play along with and just vamp along with the song and listen for the chord changes. If you miss a change you will know it because it will not sound right or good. Figure out the correct chord and pick up with that and keep plugging away. Play along with recorded songs. YouTube has plenty as well as other sources. Stop making your own recordings, yelling out loud the chord changes,etc. and play along with your favorite bluegrass standard song if you have one. "Will the Circle Be Unbroken," is a good one that is moderately slow. While it does have a minor that some choose to go to, you don't have to. Good luck.

Bobby

brian wood - Posted - 09/25/2024:  12:04:35

Hearing the root note and hearing the chord changes go together in learning to hear music. And it isn't specific to one instrument or another. It's learning to hear relationships in your head. That starts from listening. Learn the Nashville numbering system by how it sounds. Most popular music, bluegrass, old time etc rely on a few basic chord relationships. Learning to identify those when you're listening to music will eventually make playing music much easier. So, of course work on that when you're playing, but especially work on it when you're LISTENING, even listening to songs you don't already know so you'll start recognizing relationships and begin to anticipate possible changes coming up). There are a few basic chord changes that the vast majority of tunes work with. It doesn't matter what the key is, it's the relationships. For instance, the blues? Mostly 1-4-5. Learn also to hear the relative minor, a third below the tonic (often called the 6th interval above, though usually employed a third below the tonic - don't worry about that). There are only a few other common chord relationships to know. The chords are built on the root note of each.

brian wood - Posted - 09/25/2024:  12:04:51

Hearing the root note and hearing the chord changes go together in learning to hear music. And it isn't specific to one instrument or another. It's learning to hear relationships in your head. That starts from listening. Learn the Nashville numbering system by how it sounds. Most popular music, bluegrass, old time etc rely on a few basic chord relationships. Learning to identify those when you're listening to music will eventually make playing music much easier. So, of course work on that when you're playing, but especially work on it when you're LISTENING, even listening to songs you don't already know so you'll start recognizing relationships and begin to anticipate possible changes coming up. There are a few basic chord changes that the vast majority of tunes work with. It doesn't matter what the key is, it's the relationships. For instance, the blues? Mostly 1-4-5. Learn also to hear the relative minor, a third below the tonic (often called the 6th interval above, though usually employed a third below the tonic - don't worry about that). There are only a few other common chord relationships to know. The chords are built on the root note of each.

Edited by - brian wood on 09/25/2024 12:06:18

jsinjin - Posted - 09/25/2024:  13:44:12

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Music theory has nothing to do with hearing chord changes,in my opinion.It's something that simply washes over the senses triggering a response.

A bit Pavlovian,I suppose.

---

I think this is exactly what I don't have.  That "sense" is not something I feel or get.   

an example, a friend has an upright bass.  He came over to play with me and it was an unmitigated disaster.  I didn't realize that my little batter tuner had a "D" and a "D•".  The dot symbolized a sharp.  I typically tune my banjo to D on the fourth string then I use a process I call "wuh wuh wuh" listening for the harmonic overtones of each string (you can see it on the oscilloscope) to get very long as I tune each other string with appropriate frets to that string.   But I had tuned my entire banjo to D sharp.  We spent an hour with him wincing and stopping to try and figure out what was wrong with the key.   I couldn't hear any differences at all.   I didn't even understand what he thought he was hearing and I just wanted to play.  We then learned I was a half step off.   He had tuned to G major and I had as well but a half step off and the weird thing was he could hear it and I still don't know what he was hearing.

Ive never been one of those people for whom music speaks to or that I "love" a song.   There are Christmas carols happy birthday, a few token pop songs through the years and movies and I know the classical pop like Stars and Stripes forever or Star Wars or Indiana jones when the symphony does movie themes.  

 

im really trying with "Alexa play bluegrass" but it sounds like a million complicated notes that just sort of washes over you.

im trying hard, the sounds just don't have a frame of reference for me

i tried playing bile dem cabbage down with only G and it sort of sounded the same whether I was playing the C and D7 or just G

steve davis - Posted - 09/25/2024:  13:46:16

Get some books that name the chords over the staff.Get used to playing those songs by singing while you strum the chords.This will help you locate the changes.
Learn to play your 3 basic chord formations and see how they are arranged in the key of G.
The g chord is open or barre at the nut,the "f" position at the 5th fret and the "d" position at the 9th fret.

Once you understand their relative locations to each other you know all the other keys' 3 chord formations.
Barre + 5 to F + 4 to D positions.

By dealing with the full chords you will learn how to extract singular picked notes from a good place.
Trying to identify a chord from a single note can be very confusing.Rather find single notes from their known chordal foundation.

steve davis - Posted - 09/25/2024:  14:34:42

You aren't helping yourself by trying to play and learn from just a bass.
You will grow in your playing more efficiently by playing with a chording instrument such a as a guitar or piano and one who sings.
If I had to choose just one it would be playing to a guitar player who sings.
Is the bass player a beginner,too?
Anyway,now you won't have that tuner problem ever again and that is progress.
You need to hear and play along with the chords someone else is making.That will help you hear when the chord changes.
We all struggled in the beginning with making and placing chords.As time goes by we get better at doing that.It takes as long as it takes and then it's like the clouds parting and the sun comes out.

steve davis - Posted - 09/25/2024:  17:04:10

Playing to a singer has the benefit of using a sung word to signal a chord change.

G) She walked through the (D) corn ieading (Em) down to the river...



The D should be on top of "corn" and the Em on top of "down"

After hearing Fox on the Run a few times the words will generate a more automatic response from your left hand.



My Mom had a little keyboard 50 years ago called a "Baldwin Discoverer" That poor little thing sounded like a melodica,but its shining grace was the ability to program 48 measures of chords major,7th and minor.



I spent many hours setting up sequences to play the banjo or guitar against.Different tunes played to the same progression which got pretty far out there.



It must be fairly easy to program chord progressions into these new keyboards.

My point is if you play around with chords you'll discover new things and directions.

Edited by - steve davis on 09/25/2024 17:06:47

jsinjin - Posted - 09/25/2024:  18:02:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Is the bass player a beginner,too?

Anyway,now you won't have that tuner problem ever again and that is progress.

---

The bass player was at a jam session I attended.  It had about 10 people whom I assume have a lot of experience.  There was an upright bass, two of the Scruggs style banjos, one clawhammer player, several guitarists, a mandolin and that dulcimer thing.  The songs were fast, everyone joined in, none were recognizable and there were way more notes than I'm used to.

a friend also has a bass.  He is an audio engineer and worked for the band called genesis and now is the head of sound engineering for a football team here in Dallas (yes it's that team).   He plays a lot of instrument s but bought an upright bass recently and was trying to play with me in the front porch when the debacle occurred with me tuning the banjo wrong.

jsinjin - Posted - 09/25/2024:  18:04:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

After hearing Fox on the Run a few times the words will generate a more automatic response from your left hand.

 

---

I don't know fox on the run but I can look it up tonight.   I don't have a keyboard but I can go to a music store and buy one to try that.

Owen - Posted - 09/25/2024:  18:18:01

IF I could "figure out" the things that will supposedly "eventually" fall into place, I think I'd be in a position of offering advice rather than asking for it.  Heck maybe even be making 10s of dollars playing.  

I can't reliably figure out the changes in Twinkle Twinkle, or  Jingle Bells, or Happy Birthday, or ___(pick one)____ , but for me, one song that I found where the chord changes stood out more than others is Love Me Darlin', Just Tonight ..... and even if the changes/sequence doesn't come easily, the profound (?) message the song tells is an additional bonus.... makes it all worthwhile.  

steve davis - Posted - 09/26/2024:  06:48:15

Hearing chord changes is best learned by playing along with those that can.
It's passed down.