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Kellie - Posted - 08/27/2024: 19:59:00
I'm curious because I was playing my Farland banjo and I noticed that some of the notes are a little sharper or potentially flatter than they should be in the equal temperament that I grew up immersed in.
Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 08/27/2024: 21:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
I'm curious because I was playing my Farland banjo and I noticed that some of the notes are a little sharper or potentially flatter than they should be in the equal temperament that I grew up immersed in.
The even tempered scale has dominated western music since Bach's time.
However, early Minstrel banjos were fretless. So like any other instrument without fixed pitch, when playing by ear, you'll naturally correct the few cents back to 'Just Intonation' (harmonic intonation).
What kind of strings do you have on the Farland?
Joel Hooks - Posted - 08/28/2024: 05:38:12
Alfred Farland was not a "minstrel".
Bob Buckingham - Posted - 08/28/2024: 07:13:17
You may have to angle the bridge to get proper intonation up and down the neck. Some banjos will sound out of tune up the neck the heavier strings especially on the third. Using harmonics the bridge can be set to be real close and the angle will be further toward the tailpiece on the low end and further to the neck on the treble.
Kellie - Posted - 08/28/2024: 08:18:01
quote:
Originally posted by Bruce Berry Banjos
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
I'm curious because I was playing my Farland banjo and I noticed that some of the notes are a little sharper or potentially flatter than they should be in the equal temperament that I grew up immersed in.
The even tempered scale has dominated western music since Bach's time.
However, early Minstrel banjos were fretless. So like any other instrument without fixed pitch, when playing by ear, you'll naturally correct the few cents back to 'Just Intonation' (harmonic intonation).
What kind of strings do you have on the Farland?
Nylgut strings. It's possible I'm just pushing down too hard and bending them accidentally.
Kellie - Posted - 08/28/2024: 08:20:25
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
Alfred Farland was not a "minstrel".
I thought he was in his early days as a performer.
Joel Hooks - Posted - 08/28/2024: 08:24:15
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
Alfred Farland was not a "minstrel".
I thought he was in his early days as a performer.
Worked in a wool textile mill, then banjo. I don't recall ever reading that he corked up.
Regardless, "minstrel banjo" is a meaningless term as their was not one "minstrel banjo", all types including tenor and plectrum (and even bluegrass) were used on the minstrel stage.
Kellie - Posted - 08/28/2024: 13:02:19
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
Alfred Farland was not a "minstrel".
I thought he was in his early days as a performer.
Worked in a wool textile mill, then banjo. I don't recall ever reading that he corked up.
Regardless, "minstrel banjo" is a meaningless term as their was not one "minstrel banjo", all types including tenor and plectrum (and even bluegrass) were used on the minstrel stage.
Oddly it says on Wikipedia that he started off as a minstrel show performer.
Joel Hooks - Posted - 08/28/2024: 13:11:05
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
Alfred Farland was not a "minstrel".
I thought he was in his early days as a performer.
Worked in a wool textile mill, then banjo. I don't recall ever reading that he corked up.
Regardless, "minstrel banjo" is a meaningless term as their was not one "minstrel banjo", all types including tenor and plectrum (and even bluegrass) were used on the minstrel stage.
Oddly it says on Wikipedia that he started off as a minstrel show performer.
Well, there you go. That said, by 1884 actual banjo pitch had generally been raised to "concert C" (again "minstrel banjo" is meaningless despite people insisting on using it).
newspapers.com/article/the-cou...23137254/
Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/28/2024: 13:29:56
If a ("normal") fretted banjo is made and set up perfectly, it's tuned to 12-tone Equal Temperament. Any other temperament would require that none of the frets (except the 12th) be straight. It would also restrict you to one tuning.
Edited by - Dan Gellert on 08/28/2024 13:30:55
Eulalie - Posted - 08/28/2024: 13:32:46
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
I'm curious because I was playing my Farland banjo and I noticed that some of the notes are a little sharper or potentially flatter than they should be in the equal temperament that I grew up immersed in.
The clever response is "unequal" temperament. It's pretty well confirmed that fretted instruments from the early 19th century onward used equal temperament. Minstrel banjos were unfretted, so they likely used a pragmatic meantone temperament.
wrench13 - Posted - 08/28/2024: 19:16:35
I'd guess they would be on the BEST temperament that would keep them out of the hoosegow.
Son, you're comin' with me!
Joel Hooks - Posted - 08/28/2024: 19:33:59
quote:
Originally posted by Eulalie
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
I'm curious because I was playing my Farland banjo and I noticed that some of the notes are a little sharper or potentially flatter than they should be in the equal temperament that I grew up immersed in.
The clever response is "unequal" temperament. It's pretty well confirmed that fretted instruments from the early 19th century onward used equal temperament. Minstrel banjos were unfretted, so they likely used a pragmatic meantone temperament.
Eddie Ross played plectrum style on a fretted banjo as did countless other "minstrels."
Al Jolson played tenor banjo (fretted), as did countless other minstrels.
There is/was no single "minstrel banjo".
banjoak - Posted - 08/28/2024: 19:40:25
quote:
Originally posted by Dan Gellert
If a ("normal") fretted banjo is made and set up perfectly, it's tuned to 12-tone Equal Temperament. Any other temperament would require that none of the frets (except the 12th) be straight. It would also restrict you to one tuning.
I recall seen drawing or photo of older banjo with a partial fret or two (IIRC the second fret?); not only one tuning, but only one to maybe three keys.
Agree, if has straight frets then it should be 12 tone equal temperament. If doesn't play in tune, could be the bridge set up, or the height; possibly neck. As well some of the older fret placement in the day was less than ideal.
Edited by - banjoak on 08/28/2024 19:42:10
Eulalie - Posted - 08/29/2024: 04:50:45
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
quote:
Originally posted by Eulalie
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
I'm curious because I was playing my Farland banjo and I noticed that some of the notes are a little sharper or potentially flatter than they should be in the equal temperament that I grew up immersed in.
The clever response is "unequal" temperament. It's pretty well confirmed that fretted instruments from the early 19th century onward used equal temperament. Minstrel banjos were unfretted, so they likely used a pragmatic meantone temperament.
Eddie Ross played plectrum style on a fretted banjo as did countless other "minstrels."
Al Jolson played tenor banjo (fretted), as did countless other minstrels.
There is/was no single "minstrel banjo".
Yes, of course there was never an instrument that was labeled a "minstrel banjo" by those performers using the banjo on stage during its height of the popularity of minstrel shows. But today—particularly academics—feel the need to create labels and categories when discussing the past, and such people like to call the fretless large-hoop or gourd reproduction banjos "minstrel banjos." It's rather like calling the historical genre of music played by Fred Van Eps et al "classic" banjo. To me, they's all just banjers.
Joel Hooks - Posted - 08/29/2024: 05:57:26
quote:
Originally posted by Eulalie
quote:
Originally posted by Joel Hooks
quote:
Originally posted by Eulalie
quote:
Originally posted by Kellie
I'm curious because I was playing my Farland banjo and I noticed that some of the notes are a little sharper or potentially flatter than they should be in the equal temperament that I grew up immersed in.
The clever response is "unequal" temperament. It's pretty well confirmed that fretted instruments from the early 19th century onward used equal temperament. Minstrel banjos were unfretted, so they likely used a pragmatic meantone temperament.
Eddie Ross played plectrum style on a fretted banjo as did countless other "minstrels."
Al Jolson played tenor banjo (fretted), as did countless other minstrels.
There is/was no single "minstrel banjo".
Yes, of course there was never an instrument that was labeled a "minstrel banjo" by those performers using the banjo on stage during its height of the popularity of minstrel shows. But today—particularly academics—feel the need to create labels and categories when discussing the past, and such people like to call the fretless large-hoop or gourd reproduction banjos "minstrel banjos." It's rather like calling the historical genre of music played by Fred Van Eps et al "classic" banjo. To me, they's all just banjers.
But it is not like that. Minstrelsy was still popular during the "classic era", major examples of this (which are to numerous to even try to post a full list) are E. M. Hall, Harry C. Browne (with listening to his recordings), and even S. S. Stewart early on to name a few.
While what we call "classic banjo" was a skill set/technique with stylistic elements, minstrelsy was a broad and far reaching general entertainment that continued into the 1970s (and even today). A "minstrel" might play "classic banjo" (historically called "guitar style" or "finger style"). They also might play any kind of instrument.
Is there "minstrel tuba", "minstrel fiddle", "minstrel cornet"? All of those were on the minstrel stage.
The concept of "minstrel banjo" being a type of banjo (early rimmed and fretless) pitched to an anachronistic pitch ("Briggs' G") and played stroke style was put forth by Joe Ayers, Bob Flesher, Bob Winans, and others of that era (perhaps Scott Didlake, Geroge Wunderlich and Clarke Buehling too). And while a okay term for that time, it is not correct and should be replaced with "early rimmed banjo".
Eulalie - Posted - 08/29/2024: 13:01:02
Joel Hooks, I see what you are getting at, but my point is that "we" tend to create artificial categories and concoct retrospective labels to identify our modern perceptions of the past. Whether or not our retrospective labels are accurate or even logical is a bit beyond my pay grade—or interest level. If you want to call popular styles of banjo music from circa 1900 "classic," I'm OK with that. If someone else wants to stake their authority on calling a recreation of an old banjo "minstrel," I don't mind. But if you start talking about pronouns, I'm gone.
Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/29/2024: 16:27:58
quote:
Originally posted by banjoak
I recall seen drawing or photo of older banjo with a partial fret or two (IIRC the second fret?); not only one tuning, but only one to maybe three keys.
Yes. the 2nd fret goes only under the 2nd, 3rd and 4th strings. The 1st string has its own short 2nd fret, a couple mm closer to the nut. Assuming modern banjo pitch, and "standard" tuning (gCGBD), that gives you a JUST 3rd between c and e. That e sounds extra good with the C major chord, but will be sour with most anything else. There aren't but 2 or 3 chords using it that you'd even think about fingering in that position, though, and they're about as easy to finger in the next inversion up the neck (where all the other instances of that e are equal-tempered). If you're in C and don't play any full chords except the C, F, and G ( or G7), you're fine in open position.
