batman007 - Posted - 08/05/2024:  16:09:53

I have been playing banjo a long time, but playing to a metronome is the hardest thing I have ever done. For the last few months I have been getting better at playing with the metronome. Today I thought I was doing good while playing each section of Earl's Breakdown and staying on the click. So I recorded myself playing it without the metronome on my pc and played it back. While I could pat my foot to the playback and thought it was good, when I picked up my gutiar to play along with the recording it was obvious I still had a problem.

I have a friend who plays rythm gutiar and when we get together I can play along with him and the timing seems good. I do play in Jams, sometimes its good, but somtimes there is a problem with my timing. Everyone says a metronome is the best way to develop timing, but isn't playing to the steady beat of Strum Machine, and slowly to a tef file in TablEdit (while staying on each note) as good as a metronome to develop timing? All help will be appreciated.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 08/05/2024:  16:40:59

I can play with musicians, I can play with backing tracks, I can play to a drum machine. Cannot play to a click to save my life.

RG - Posted - 08/05/2024:  16:46:00

Never used a metronome, seemed paradoxical to me in regards to old-time music... I just listened to a TON of the old timers and kind of internalized the rhythm of the music to the point where it became second nature.

If you do need something to illustrate old-time timing, one of the best guides I saw was Dwight Diller's "Just Rhythm" DVD.

My advice would be to do what you suggested, play along to the tunes and get that rhythm in your soul.

batman007 - Posted - 08/05/2024:  16:53:34

quote:

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Originally posted by banjo bill-e

I can play with musicians, I can play with backing tracks, I can play to a drum machine. Cannot play to a click to save my life.

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Thanks, this is helpful. 

batman007 - Posted - 08/05/2024:  16:58:56

quote:

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Originally posted by RG

Never used a metronome, seemed paradoxical to me in regards to old-time music... I just listened to a TON of the old timers and kind of internalized the rhythm of the music to the point where it became second nature.



If you do need something to illustrate old-time timing, one of the best guides I saw was Dwight Diller's "Just Rhythm" DVD.



My advice would be to do what you suggested, play along to the tunes and get that rhythm in your soul.

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Thank you

Culloden - Posted - 08/05/2024:  18:11:54

One of the things I have pointed out in the past is that an electronic or digital metronome only gives you the sound. You hear it exactly when the beat occurs and sometimes it is past before you play the note.

A manual metronome with a swinging arm allows you to anticipate the beat and hit the note right on time.

Edited by - Culloden on 08/05/2024 18:12:15

Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 08/05/2024:  19:46:28

Yes, playing with strum machine is every bit as good as a metronome.
If it's working for you, then it's working.
As long as you can play along with something that's keeping steady time, then you're developing proper timing.

Culloden - Posted - 08/05/2024:  21:27:09

I don't know how the banjo heel got in that last post. This is what I was trying to show.

batman007 - Posted - 08/06/2024:  03:14:01

quote:

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Originally posted by Culloden

One of the things I have pointed out in the past is that an electronic or digital metronome only gives you the sound. You hear it exactly when the beat occurs and sometimes it is past before you play the note.

A manual metronome with a swinging arm allows you to anticipate the beat and hit the note right on time.

---

Thanks

batman007 - Posted - 08/06/2024:  03:15:28

quote:

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Originally posted by Bruce Berry Banjos

Yes, playing with strum machine is every bit as good as a metronome.

 If it's working for you, then it's working.

As long as you can play along with something that's keeping steady time, then you're developing proper timing.

---

Thanks

wrench13 - Posted - 08/06/2024:  06:31:57

There is tempo, the space of time between each beat. That needs to be regular and steady.

Then there is timing. Think of this as a series of waves (like on an osilloscope) , with the crest of each, the very top, the point where your metronome issues a click or beep or what ever. Playing the on beat notes slightly later makes the music sound draggy. If everyone is right on the very top of the beat, the music will sound more uniform and cohesive. There is also playing slightly forward of the peak or beat, usually a lead instrument, which will make it sound lively and peppy. Doing this takes a lot of practice and listening very closely.

ALL IMHO of course.

Tony S - Posted - 08/06/2024:  06:45:11

The metronome is forgiving.
Chord apps, such as the excellent Strum Machine are unforgiving.
I play alongside the metronome to learn the notes of the tune and build up speed. If I am having trouble with a phrase I can play it over and over and the metronome clops happily along. It doesn't matter where I am in the tune.

I use Strum Machine to flesh out the melody and make sure my phrases start and stop at the proper beat. If my phrasing isn't right, I end up in the wrong measure. The app quickly shows me that my timing is off: rests too long or short, forgot a ghost note, came in too soon, etc.
Using the Strum Machine is like having the Buddha as your backup rhythm player: always available, infinitely patient, thoroughly non-judgemental.
One downside is that these machines are rigidly mechanistic, which is not a pleasant musical presentation. In order to become musical the tune needs to be exposed to musicians, to be given some bridle.

The metronome is a grinding wheel.
Chord apps are whetstones.
Playing with others is the polishing cloth.

RB3 - Posted - 08/06/2024:  06:47:39

How many metronome clicks per measure are you playing?

Tony S - Posted - 08/06/2024:  06:57:15

Hi Wayne,
If your question is directed at me, typically 4 per measure, but it depends on the tune. Sometimes if I'm struggling through a section at 100bpm, I'll just play this count at half speed until I figure things out, then resume at full speed, so 4 per measure, but sometimes 2 per measure.

RB3 - Posted - 08/06/2024:  08:02:25

Tony S

My question was intended to be directed to the original poster, but I'll explain why I asked the question.

Most tablatures for Bluegrass and Old-time banjo are written with a 4/4 time signature. But I'm adamantly of the opinion that the appropriate time signature for Bluegrass and Old-Time music should be either 2/4 or 2/2. With 2/4 or 2/2, the metronome typically would be set to a rate of 2 clicks per measure.

If you or the original poster have the metronome set to a rate of 4 clicks per measure, my suggestion would be to change to 2 clicks per measure. That's the rate that has proven most successful for me, so that's the reason that I suggest it.

batman007 - Posted - 08/06/2024:  08:58:09

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

How many metronome clicks per measure are you playing?

I have set it for 4 beats per measure and sometimes 2 beats per Measure. But I am having more success with timing when play using Strum Machine or  a TablEdit File.

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klgera - Posted - 08/06/2024:  17:03:17

Every metronome that I have always slows down when I start to play, dam things!

Dan Korb - Posted - 08/06/2024:  17:41:09

For what it's worth... I like to use a metronome when I am working on a specific phrase or technique, but when I play a complete tune, I find my playing gets flat. While my timing improves, I tend to lose the groove. So when I am working on a tune, I find it best to play along with a recording, Slowing down the playback speed on YouTube is great for this.

dfstd - Posted - 08/07/2024:  09:42:38

I practice sometimes with a metronome, sometimes with Strum Machine, sometimes playing along with a recording, and sometimes without any reference tempo. I also play with others at a weekly bluegrass jam.

I find the metronome to be the most unforgiving for identifying sloppy playing. With the other tempo references, there's more going on. The soundscape is busier and sometimes not as precise. My playing can be a little off (usually is) and still sound good enough (sometimes) to mesh with the other sounds. But metronome clicks are so precise and discrete that it's easier to hear any sloppiness or lack of precision in my playing, even when it's off by just the slightest little bit.

So I think metronome work is best for improving control, but it's also a good idea to play with others, with recordings or Strum Machine to keep it fun and enjoyable.

writerrad - Posted - 08/07/2024:  12:35:07

have several electronic metronomes built into tuners. I am too much of an old fart to have an "ap" on my phone or desk top but this exchanges has gotten me to go on amazon and order an old fashion swinging arm metronome.

Thanks

Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/08/2024:  08:34:00

I do like to have a visual cue that shows me the SPACE between beats, like a conductor's baton or a tapping foot. I don't like looking at a mechanical metronome, though-- its click sounds just after the pendulum passes dead center, which puts the visual and auditory cues out of sync (to my eye).



My Korg TM-40 clicks (and flashes an LED) at the end of each swing of its LCD "pendulum".

The phone/tablet app I like best is:  eumlab.com/pro-metronome/ 

Its "pendulum" mode makes more visual sense to me than any other I've tried, and is easier to see than the little Korg.

Potato - Posted - 08/09/2024:  05:42:11

Try setting the click to beats 2 and 4, and tap your left foot with it.

bosborne - Posted - 08/09/2024:  09:46:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by batman007

I have been playing banjo a long time, but playing to a metronome is the hardest thing I have ever done. For the last few months I have been getting better at playing with the metronome. Today I thought I was doing good while playing each section of Earl's Breakdown and staying on the click. So I recorded myself playing it without the metronome on my pc and played it back. While I could pat my foot to the playback and thought it was good, when I picked up my gutiar to play along with the recording it was obvious I still had a problem.



I have a friend who plays rythm gutiar and when we get together I can play along with him and the timing seems good. I do play in Jams, sometimes its good, but somtimes there is a problem with my timing. Everyone says a metronome is the best way to develop timing, but isn't playing to the steady beat of Strum Machine, and slowly to a tef file in TablEdit (while staying on each note) as good as a metronome to develop timing? All help will be appreciated.

---

The metronome is the strictest test, that's why so many people say they cannot do it. It's stricter because, depending on the setting, you're hearing each quarter or eighth and you can tell if _each and every pick_ is lining up with the metronome. When you play with people or to a recording and it sounds decent you're probably in sync overall, but individual picks may be a tiny bit off. Keep going with the metronome, since it's telling you something about every single note that you're playing. You'll see specifically where your issues are, speeding up or slowing down, so you can focus on them.

writerrad - Posted - 08/09/2024:  10:31:16

Thanks for launching this thread.  I have been using the electronic metronomes that come attached to fairly pricey tuners and metronome apps on the computer.   Someone in this thread posted that the old fashioned tic toc metronome with a dial was helpful because there was the visual anticipation of what the rhythm or beat is very similar to the visual  anticipation that you get when you are playing along with other people.  

I just got an old fashioned metronome and I can already see it helps me being mindful to play along as I anticipate its playing not by a tic or toc but looking at when it is going to do what which is pretty much what I do when I pick with other people.   

Over the years I have know musicians who work with metronomes who might be great for measuring time, but are unmindful of what others are playing.

I would not put one type against another, but the old swaying weight metronomes can provide help with things the electronic or app  metronomes cannot.  Both are useful.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/12/2024:  10:41:54

quote:

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Originally posted by Potato

Try setting the click to beats 2 and 4, and tap your left foot with it.

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I disagree. The click, and the foot, should be on the DOWNBEAT, not the backbeat.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 08/12/2024:  11:00:34

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gellert

I do like to have a visual cue that shows me the SPACE between beats, like a conductor's baton or a tapping foot. I don't like looking at a mechanical metronome, though-- its click sounds just after the pendulum passes dead center, which puts the visual and auditory cues out of sync (to my eye).



My Korg TM-40 clicks (and flashes an LED) at the end of each swing of its LCD "pendulum".

The phone/tablet app I like best is:  eumlab.com/pro-metronome/ 

Its "pendulum" mode makes more visual sense to me than any other I've tried, and is easier to see than the little Korg.

---

The swing arm is constant with how a conductor's baton works.  The beat is not dead center as the conductor moves the baton, but at each shift of movement.  I can't imagine sitting in a band or orchestra setting and trying to guess where "center" was on the baton swing. 

Potato - Posted - 08/12/2024:  12:18:36

quote:

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Originally posted by Dan Gellert

quote:

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Originally posted by Potato

Try setting the click to beats 2 and 4, and tap your left foot with it.

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I disagree. The click, and the foot, should be on the DOWNBEAT, not the backbeat.

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Try it.

brian wood - Posted - 08/12/2024:  12:53:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

quote:

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Originally posted by Potato

Try setting the click to beats 2 and 4, and tap your left foot with it.

---

I disagree. The click, and the foot, should be on the DOWNBEAT, not the backbeat.

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The foot on downbeat maybe. (I don't think for most people tapping their foot is very reliable though). The metronome used as a backbeat really frees up your playing. Like a mando chop or snare drum. much better!

Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/12/2024:  12:58:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

I do like to have a visual cue that shows me the SPACE between beats, like a conductor's baton or a tapping foot. I don't like looking at a mechanical metronome, though-- its click sounds just after the pendulum passes dead center, which puts the visual and auditory cues out of sync (to my eye).



My Korg TM-40 clicks (and flashes an LED) at the end of each swing of its LCD "pendulum".

The phone/tablet app I like best is:  eumlab.com/pro-metronome/ 

Its "pendulum" mode makes more visual sense to me than any other I've tried, and is easier to see than the little Korg.

---

The swing arm is constant with how a conductor's baton works.  The beat is not dead center as the conductor moves the baton, but at each shift of movement.  I can't imagine sitting in a band or orchestra setting and trying to guess where "center" was on the baton swing. 

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Maybe I wasn't clear enough.  The conductor puts the beat at the end of each stroke (at the change of direction), as do the Korg and the EUM.  A mechanical metronome's sound does NOT come at the end of its swing, but a bit before it gets there.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/12/2024:  13:22:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by brian wood

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dan Gellert

quote:

---

Originally posted by Potato

Try setting the click to beats 2 and 4, and tap your left foot with it.

---

I disagree. The click, and the foot, should be on the DOWNBEAT, not the backbeat.

---

The foot on downbeat maybe. (I don't think for most people tapping their foot is very reliable though). The metronome used as a backbeat really frees up your playing. Like a mando chop or snare drum. much better!

---

Not for me. 

I reckon it's mostly a matter of taste.  Some folks are backbeaters, others are downbeaters.  I am very definitely one of the latter, and yes, I am kind of fanatical about it. 

As James Brown said, "You got to come down on the ONE!"

RG - Posted - 08/12/2024:  14:38:29

Couldn't agree more with Dan, almost exclusively, the old-timers (guys born in the late 1800's or early 1900's) that were recorded later are DOWNBEAT based... I have yet to hear anyone of those old guys play the backbeat, which makes sense since dance music at the time was 1 & 3 for the dancers, not 2 & 4. Backbeat came with other forms of music and is what distinguishes old-time from "new-age" old-time imho.

Edited by - RG on 08/12/2024 14:39:10

SebastianRogers - Posted - 08/23/2024:  03:23:39

For my sins I've started recording us playing at rehearsals without the banjo and then using Chordify to play against that. This plus Strum Machine lets me get in time both with the 'ideal' (Strum Machine) and the 'actual' (Chordify) they are close but not the same.

What I do use the metronome for, thank you Ron Block, is when slow practicing particular rolls, licks, backup patterns, but not for whole songs.

Johnny TooManyBanjos - Posted - 08/25/2024:  18:47:09

I play to simple drum tracks on a metronome app. Helps a lot

Owen - Posted - 08/25/2024:  19:33:24

Onto a tangent, I suppose ... nothing to do with a metronome or timing per se, or clawhammer [yet], but ....

Mr. Potato: "Try setting the click to beats 2 and 4, and tap your left foot with it."

I only vamp (?) and [alt. thumb] roll over chords, but lately, though I still make plenty of mistakes, I make fewer when I tap with my right foot, so my leg, the banjo and my right [picking] arm and hand move in unison, than when I tap with my left foot and the banjo stays pretty still.  This seems counter to my intuition.  Does it make sense to anybody?

Edited by - Owen on 08/25/2024 19:44:51