jsinjin - Posted - 07/28/2024:  07:11:30

All good!

I got some help from a friend in the symphony and she got me an app that helps to train ear to learn tone and major minor 7th and diminished and more chords in different keys.  I figured out some systematic ways to learn this and was able to pick it up!

thabks all!

Edited by - jsinjin on 08/24/2024 18:53:58

Earthworm - Posted - 07/28/2024:  07:28:19

I can relate to what you're saying. I don't enjoy it, but I've made progress using the ear training app called "Chet". There's another one called Arpeggio. Doing some sort of ear training like that for 10 minutes a day most days for a couple months and you'll see (hear?) a lot of progress. It won't be entirely linear. But it works. I'm only part way there. Good luck.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 07/28/2024:  08:46:31

I think what will help you most is when you get to playing songs/melodies. If you can hum or sing the melody, you can tell the difference between notes even if you aren't sure what the notes are. The more experience you get on playing melodies, the better you will become on differentiating one note from another.

I can take a song I've never heard before, listen to the melody, and let my fingers and brain play the melody back to me. I didn't learn this in a day, week or month, but it took years to get good at it.

I remember trying to use some method of telling a G from a B, etc., and it didn't work for me. I was too new at playing at the time. I gave that up and just learned to play the banjo. Eventually it does work.

Owen - Posted - 07/28/2024:  08:48:30

From the broken record dept.: I used one of those "You too can learn perfect pitch" programs for about 1/2 hour a day for 3 months one year and 1.5 - 2 months the next year.  Improvement was diddly-squat.  I've tried step-by-step instructions given by BHOers with the same result ... like John, far apart, things are hunky-dory, etc.   [I will look into Chet and Arpeggio. Thanks.]

Fwiw,  although I realize "playing advice" appears in the forum heading, I'm just relaying my drivel ... not asking for advice per se [unless it's something revolutionary, i.e. "adjusted/adapted for the individual learner" as some teachers call it.] 

Edited by - Owen on 07/28/2024 09:04:31

jsinjin - Posted - 07/28/2024:  13:14:21

I downloaded an app:

So here is the problem, I don't have a basis for learning. I have an app that plays a piano note and then has a piano scale. I'm just guessing randomly each time then moving in a 50:50 chance up or down until I hit it. Every time. I have no idea where to start. The sound goes bing. And I don't know whether that should be a high or low bing. And I'm not really understanding yet how an A is an A an octave higher or lower. I mean I understand the math and the physics, but not the actual sound. Like Im sure I could get this if I knew the frequency and could totally memorize them and nail it. But you don't get the frequency. You just sort of have to know: that one sounds more Bish than C ish and I'm sort of lost in where to guess to start each time. I keep landing at 5-10 percent accuracy out of 100 tries but the ones I get are just guesses. I’m trying to learn how to start the practice for identifying a sound. Playing songs is a far ways off for me mostly because I’m so rudimentary with how something should sound so I shy away from playing with groups or trying to play with people because I can’t yet tell if my c chord is right or wrong. The c vs a b sound different but I can’t tell if one is a c or a b. Does that make sense?

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 07/28/2024:  13:18:07

here's my post from 10 years ago
banjohangout.org/archive/310544

Bill H - Posted - 07/29/2024:  02:09:02

I think that going through the tuning process carefully and thoroughly prior to each practice session would be a help. Tune your G string first in pitch with a tuning device and then go through the process of tuning the rest of the strings by ear. Then check with the tuner and correct any strings that are off. In other words, make practicing tuning a part of your practice routine. And check tuning often so that you are never playing an out of tune banjo. Another help might be to play along with videos on familiar tunes.

banjoak - Posted - 07/29/2024:  16:03:30

"Playing by ear" is sometimes referring different concepts.

They all refer to being able to play without the aid the eyes; looking at notation/tab, (nor another player's finger). Some it's simply idea about memorization, rote; but based off of notation/tab idea. For many folks, by ear, extends to the ability to just listen/hear and figure out the notes, melody, chords, rhythm.

One of those methods, which seems to be what many think of, and what many ear training focus is about; is along some idea hearing recognition or memorization of frequency pitch/note name, and/or distance between two notes.

But for for many others "by ear"  is rather another concept; that doesn't really involve those abilities, nor need to. This "by ear" not easy to describe, can vary for individuals... but generally involves just listening; in more holistic musical contexts. As Sherry mentioned, being able to audiate/hum/sing; recognizing contour and patterns; using that to building cognition, an understanding how music works, concepts and contextual relationships; and then mapping out that to the fingerboard. Might also include a little bit of help music theory explanations/terminology; though a lot is just absorption, over time by doing, in working out playing tunes/songs... and just paying some attention, noticing aspects that recur, pattern, schema... building intuition.

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 07/31/2024:  15:44:54

We won't even talk about lowered tunings, microtones via the fretless, or 432hz then!

banjo roo - Posted - 07/31/2024:  22:29:32

It takes time. Dont be disheartened. I used to have VERY poor ear skills, akin to everything you are experiencing. Now i can tune to pretty reasonable accuracy and jam alomg by ear. But it took me many years.
Spend time practising, as you are, slowly you will train your ears (or more specifically your brain). If you have not watched it, this video explains it better than I can youtu.be/ZZyG0pxo7OQ?si=KkcZfD7Fr24axYCW

jsinjin - Posted - 08/01/2024:  06:06:53

Ok I installed an app that’s related to piano. It lets you select a set of notes along the piano then it plays one and I have to guess which one it is. It’s fairly easy if I select two notes that are octaves apart and I at least know which ones they are.

I can sort of hear one and if I have already heard the other one him high and low over and over and zero in on the correct one. What I have trouble with is if there are four or five I’ve selected in a single octave with the sharps and flats. I guess about 90 percent of the time and often just start pinging away hoping. If I just select two and I really know one of them such as a C and A on the keyboard then I can usually get it after I’ve identified one. But if I select more than three and they’re close to each other it’s like throwing darts when I’m not good at darts. I’m not giving up but I’m also not making much progress.


It’s very funny, I never once in my life at any time gave any thought to how music is actually created with notes. I mean I’ve heard songs on the radio, had an iPod and phone for running and mowing the lawn and can recognize a song. But I never until very recently thought about the notes that make up how a song is played.

jsinjin - Posted - 08/01/2024:  06:11:35

quote:

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Originally posted by R.D. Lunceford

We won't even talk about lowered tunings, microtones via the fretless, or 432hz then!

---

Yes.  A friend I work out with is an audio engineer with a big sports team and their stadium.  I would really prefer that everything be in frequency and volume rather than music notes.  I tell my wife the same thing with cooking and weights of ingredients and she tells me to leave the kitchen.   

 

but yes.  If I tune the banjo with an oscilloscope at the lab then I have no problem tuning it.  Every time.   But tuning it to itself is very difficult for me.  

 

also, does anyone find that with tuning the micro stretching of tuning strings after you have gotten one into tune pulls the original one you tuned out slightly?  I find that I can tune the fourth string perfect so the wave is absolutely pure and by the time I'm done with the others it's slightly out of tune again.   I guess you just have to sort of let the instrument settle with small adjustments. 

JSB88 - Posted - 08/01/2024:  08:26:37

 

also, does anyone find that with tuning the micro stretching of tuning strings after you have gotten one into tune pulls the original one you tuned out slightly?  I find that I can tune the fourth string perfect so the wave is absolutely pure and by the time I'm done with the others it's slightly out of tune again.   I guess you just have to sort of let the instrument settle with small adjustments. 

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Thats banjo's for you. 

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 08/01/2024:  09:59:01

Then there’s just intonation versus equal temperament, and the fact that even among people who recognize pitches, perception of “in tune” can vary. It’s a compromise. We’re not machines dammit!

R.D. Lunceford - Posted - 08/01/2024:  15:16:38

I'll be playing along in gDGBD, and decide to drop the fourth string to an octave below the third... gGGBD.  It is as if the 4th sting has some sort of memory, because part way through the tune the pitch of 4th string has gone up, and I have to stop and lower it.

My 4th is a silk and steel classical guitar string.

blazo - Posted - 08/01/2024:  15:37:39

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

...

also, does anyone find that with tuning the micro stretching of tuning strings after you have gotten one into tune pulls the original one you tuned out slightly?  I find that I can tune the fourth string perfect so the wave is absolutely pure and by the time I'm done with the others it's slightly out of tune again.   I guess you just have to sort of let the instrument settle with small adjustments. 

---

It's a banjo, whadda ya expect?!? When you change the tension on one string, it affects all the strings because you are changing the pressure the bridge exerts on the head. Any change to bridge pressure will affect all the strings. You just have to check all the strings a couple of times. Eventually, the changes to one string and the resultant change in bridge pressure is so small other strings aren't affected as much, if at all.

jsinjin - Posted - 08/01/2024:  15:41:56

I had no expectations, just observations. I wasn’t sure if my instrument had problems or this was normal. It can take me an hour or more to change key with the thing or I take it to the kid a few doors down who plays in a band and collects guitars and he does it in a minute or two. I wasn’t aware of how tuning works in these things. I couldn’t imagine something like a piano now.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/03/2024:  10:38:38

Most of us get along very nicely without an absolute sense of pitch ("perfect pitch"). What's necessary is learning to recognize the intervals between notes (relative pitch). If you can sing even the simplest melody so it's recognizable to a listener, you already have the basics of this skill.

When it comes to hearing a tune, chord, or riff, and imitating it on your instrument, the first thing I'd suggest is knowing where "do" (the tonic note, first note of the scale) is, and then where the notes you're after fall in relation to that. Singing can help.

Hearing when your banjo is in tune or not depends a lot on the physics of sound, so good setup and reasonably new strings are essential. First, figure out how to mute (with right or left fingertips) all but the 2 strings you want to compare. Assuming open G tuning, just play the 2 G's (3rd and thumb strings) together. Keep plucking them both as you tune one of them very slightly up and down. There's an octave interval between them, which means the higher one should be vibrating at exactly twice the frequency of the lower. If they're not quite there, the two sounds will interfere with each other to produce another vibration, equal to the difference between them. As you get close to in tune, you will hear a pulsation or beat that gets slower as you approach perfect sync. Once those are in tune, compare the low G with the high D, which is a fifth interval (a 2:3 ratio, the purest interval after the 1:1 unison and 1:2 octave). The beats won't be as obvious, but you'll hear a definite clear ring when they're in tune. Then get the octave between the two D's right. The 2nd string is tuned to the third note of the scale ("mi"), which needs to be tuned a bit sharp of a pure interval if it is going to work with the frets (Look up "equal temperament"... You can only play really in tune in one key at a time, but on an equal-tempered fretboard or keyboard, you can use any note as "do", and be the same little bit out of tune in any key.) I usually listen for the interval between the low G and the open B, then check the open G against the C and D fretted at the 1st and 3rd frets, and adjust the 2nd string until all 3 of those notes are close enough to be tolerable.

The trick is, it's a banjo, and every time you tune one string, you change all the others a bit. It takes going through the whole process a few times to get the banjo in reasonably good tune with itself, and checking against your pitch reference every time around if you want to be in tune with someone else.

Tuning (even with the best electronic tuner and top-quality setup) is a complex skill and takes practice.