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Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/398020
spencerwilson - Posted - 06/24/2024: 09:31:36
So I have a Sonata 5-string resonator I bought out of some trailer park for $100. It has many of the same basic features as a $1,000 Recording King RK-R35. I did a full setup on the old Sonata and it seems solid, doesn't go out of tune, resonates consistently among strings etc.. I'm new to banjo but have 35 years in lead guitar & guitar building. So I don't KNOW how a really good banjo is supposed to feel. So I'm turning to this community for some thought out answers. The question is - if I were blindfolded and picked up both mentioned banjos, would I notice that the $1,000 is really worth $900 more than the $100 banjo? Is there REALLY a difference? If so, is it subjective because it makes me feel good or are there truly objective reasons why the $1,000 banjo is noticeably different? Thanks in advance. -Spencer
staceyz - Posted - 06/24/2024: 09:44:02
What did Leo Fender say the difference between an American built Strat and a Mexican built Strat.... ?
about 400 miles...
Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/24/2024: 10:09:56
Sonata is a brand name of banjos made by different companies, including Samick (a Korean company that is no more). They range from very basic to nice. So visually, some of their models may resemble a Recording King. But Recording King uses much better quality components than most prior imports. An analogy would be a Gibson Strat and a lower quality import Strat. They will look the same, but the electronics, tuners, and hardware will really vary and that affects sound.
Two other big variables would be setup and subjective taste. Many of us can hear nuanced differences in tone and timbre having listened to thousands of banjos. Others will perceive less difference. (Those are the people who use the term "twangy" to define banjo tone :-) ).
If you bought either of the following types for $100, you scored big time:
DH#52 - Posted - 06/24/2024: 10:11:09
There are comments like that every day here, Spencer. I’ve never understood the compulsion of some here to treat others—especially newer members—that way.
Bruce Berry Banjos - Posted - 06/24/2024: 10:17:58
There's a much bigger difference between the Sonata and a $3000 banjo, If you're after the real quality to price scale.
It all comes down to function and budget.
Any starter banjo is better than no banjo. So that Sonata is perfectly fine as long as it sounds and feels good to you.
But, You'd really benefit from visiting a store or vendor who has some actual high-end banjos, get a feel for the difference, then reassess how long your Sonata will sever your developing skills.
Edited by - Bruce Berry Banjos on 06/24/2024 10:19:08
eagleisland - Posted - 06/24/2024: 10:18:39
Without seeing pictures of the instrument, it's nearly impossible to tell. From the late Paul Hawthorne's site, it appears that Sonata was produced in the mid 1990s, probably in Korea. Hawthorne described it as similar to Washburn banjos of the same era.
Just as today, there were wide variations in overall quality between various Asian makes. They started in Japan, and at one point the Goldstar brand of instruments was seen by many to be superior to what Gibson was cranking out at the time. Of course, Japan was also producing some real dreck.
Manufacturing switched to Korea, and then China. What's important to understand is that many instruments were made for different distributors, and other than brand name/logo and maybe some dress, they were pretty much the same within their price ranges. So your Sonata could essentially be the same banjo as one with a different brand name.
Because these instruments were made for different distributors, they were generally made to a price point - and the price point would ultimately dictate the original sale price here in the US. And manufacturers had various ways of controlling their costs - for example, using inferior metals in tone rings and other hardware; cheaper tuning devices, lower-quality fit and finish, etc.
Your Sonata could in fact be a pretty decent banjo, and if that's the case and you got it for a hundred bucks, you did well indeed. As noted above, some pictures of it - top, back, peghead, neck, side view, interior with the resonator removed - would at least give us a guess at things (though we wouldn't be able to guess about the hardware). And it would be nice to hear them side by side, though setup is hugely important.
So you know, Recording King is a comparatively recent resurrection of that name. Recording King instruments were initially made here in the US for sale by the defunct Montgomery Ward chain. Many of the banjos sold under that name were in fact made by Gibson, using pretty much the same parts as in Gibson-branded instruments (though they tended to be slightly less overbuilt). The brand today is American owned, and lead designer upon launch was Greg Rich, who is legendary in the banjo community for bringing high quality standards back to Gibson banjos in the late '80s and '90s. They are well designed, well-built, and have good quality components. And they sound good. The RK 35 and 36 models in particular have good enough playability and sound that some pros use them while touring, rather than risking their expensive vintage instruments on the road.
KCJones - Posted - 06/24/2024: 10:27:37
What Brian said, mostly. Hard to say without specifically knowing how your banjo is made. It's entirely possibly that you got a good deal on a banjo that isn't significantly different than an RK-R35. It's also possible that you didn't. If you give more info, and photos, we'd be able to tell you exactly.
But if you want to know, generally, see below for a list of typical specs you'll see on each option.
$100 "Amazon Special" banjo
$1000 "Good banjo"
Dan Gellert - Posted - 06/24/2024: 10:35:45
If that Sonata is a decent 1970's-80's Asian "Masterclone", it isn't a "$100 banjo". You just got an exceptionally good deal. If it's been set up well and is in good shape, I don't think you'd have any trouble selling it for $500. The RK-R35's construction and materials make it legitimately worth twice that, but your particular Sonata might well be able to hold its own in a blindfold test against a randomly-chosen RK. I'm sure you've seen a few ~40-50 year old Yamaha, Alvarez, etc. flattops sold for similar money which you'd take over a new ~$1K Mexico-built Martin.
BobbyE - Posted - 06/24/2024: 10:54:05
It's not always how they compare when they are brand new. I also want to know what it will play and sound like 10 years down the road.
Bobby
Texasbanjo - Posted - 06/24/2024: 11:07:12
I have hidden a couple of flaming posts and those that quoted them.
Let's be civil and polite, please.
spencerwilson - Posted - 06/24/2024: 12:03:17
All - your comments are highly valued. I read every one of them and will ruminate on these facts & opinions you all gave me. If anyone thought it would be valuable, I will report back after I visit a music store and play with higher end banjos as was advised. PS, "money" isn't the object, it's more the objectivity of the purchase / the value. So thanks for pushing me off on this quest and if you want, I'll come back and share. -Spencer
davidppp - Posted - 06/24/2024: 12:21:43
People have spent millions of dollars on Stradivari's, even though double blind listening tests repeatedly showed preference of discerning musicians and listeners for instruments made by living luthiers.
Here's a suggestion to help you decide for yourself. Dig out of the Deering Web site or just look for the YouTubes with a search engine for demos of Goodtime banjos played by professionals. Alison Krauss and Jens Kruger come to mind. They might demo some high-end Deerings, too, and they certainly choose to play more expensive instruments in person and for recording.
Audiences almost certainly couldn't tell the difference. Players get hooked on other's performances that they simply loved. So, they want to sound like their heroes. Getting the same or similar instrument might help in that, but it actually falls way short of that goal.
Banjos do sound different -- if you listen carefully. I think that the idea of an objective "better" is silly.
Old Hickory - Posted - 06/24/2024: 12:28:05
quote:
Originally posted by spencerwilsonSo I have a Sonata 5-string resonator I bought out of some trailer park for $100. It has many of the same basic features as a $1,000 Recording King RK-R35.
. . . The question is - if I were blindfolded and picked up both mentioned banjos, would I notice that the $1,000 is really worth $900 more than the $100 banjo? Is there REALLY a difference?
Yes, there really is a difference between banjos that are truly worth $1000 and $100 in a well-operating market.
If you're lucky enough to buy a banjo worth $1000 new or used for $100 because the seller is highly motivated, doesn't know the banjo's true value, isn't the legal owner or some other reason, then the example instrument is not valid for the comparison you're asking about.
But for banjos that typically sell for around $1000 new or used (such as the $1100 Recording King RK-35) or for around $100 (the banjo-shaped objects on Amazon and eBay) there is a world of difference. You would feel the difference the moment you lifted the instrument. You would hear the difference in every note. You would experience the difference in the range of tones and expressiveness that can be coaxed form the $1000 banjo vs the sonic limitations of the $100 intrument.
KC Jones gave a good run-down of how the components will vary, and how a banjo truly worth only $100 is not going to be made of "the same basic features." I'd add to his list that the cheap banjo is likely to have a half-inch rim of multiple plies of some mystery wood or may 1/8-inch aluminum. The RK-35 will have a 3/4-inch 3-ply rim of steam-bent maple. The head on the cheap banjo will bear directly on the wood or aluminum rim. The head on the RK-35 bears on a 3-pound sand cast bronze alloy tone ring in the design of pre-war Gibson banjos.
If your $100 used banjo really does have features comparable to banjos costing ten times as much, then you got a great deal. But your $100 banjo being as good as a $1000 banjo means nothing for $100 banjos in general. They are the lowest priced banjos in the world for a reason.
mrbook - Posted - 06/24/2024: 16:18:10
If you are experienced playing and building guitars you no doubt know the difference between most $100 guitars and a decent $1,000 guitar. Banjos are not much different, except that you usually have to pay a little more for a decent banjo - there are so many more guitars being made today that the quality of inexpensive guitars is far higher than when I started 60 years ago. Yours may be a bargain, not a typical $100 banjo. It might not be easy to put the difference in words, but I would suggest trying a more expensive banjo with a good setup in a shop to see if you can tell the difference. It might be dramatic, or you might find that the one you have is just fine.
I happily played my Harmony Roy Smeck banjo for 25 years, but when I became my band's banjo player I knew I needed something better. I ordered a good used banjo from Elderly, and playing it for 5 minutes after unpacking showed a difference between night and day. It sounded better, was easier to play, and just felt more substantial in my hands. I've owned and played a few others (not many) since then, and you can tell a good one when you play it.
GrahamHawker - Posted - 06/24/2024: 17:42:33
Although we don't know what features the Sonata has the main difference might be that the Recording King costs $1000 new and you got a bargain of a used banjo that cost a lot more new. My guess is that the main difference will be the rim and cheaper metal tone ring. I think these older made in Asia masterclones, especially the ones with unknown names on the peghead, are a great good priced choice for a decent sounding almost fully fledged banjo.
Helix - Posted - 06/25/2024: 03:11:36
spencerwilson First, welcome to the hangout. Guitar players and road warriors are my personal favorite because they have their own ears.
People may well use the term "Banjo Luthier" but some think Luthiery as defined by the Guilds still operating in Mark Neu Kirchen to this day was either the territory and bailiwick of Cabinetmakers or Violinmakers so C.F. Martin just packed up and hit the bannisters of tenement houses like SS Stewart used the already cured Cherry for his necks.
In my view: "Stay in your own lane" just causes real Luthiers to overlook the ease with which Banjos can be set up and brought into a dialed-in "feeling." Less tonnage for the banjo strings, so they look high and compress easier. Banjos are not necessarily easier to "choke," with dreadful pressure on the now wearing frets. Touch lightly and get more music is hard to learn. I personally use the dynamics of banjo and acoustic music in general to get a better emotional response from my first instrument = voice, and my 2nds like 6-string, 12-string in open G with Drop C @.056 and 2 .010's on the 3rd strings to guarantee a musical path with the slide in G.
The well kept secret is open G on a 12-string IS banjo chords, all of them
I also play a Dobro in D, and a shortneck 22 fret Bamboo banjo made from flooring, and two Longnecks, one Chestnut @ 150 yrs. with a Cherry neck with Jatoba stripe and the other the first Black Walnut I built still using the Gold Tone 2005 Longneck in Maple.
I also own a Flatiron made in Montana before Gibson bought them for mandolin greatness.
And THREE other acoustics, one 80's bench master SILVERTONE still sold by Sears at that time. Then I somehow (literally) own a NEW Epiphone Advanced Jumbo with the backwards bridge and Gold Grovers. I also have the '58 Epiphone Texan. Guitar Center sent me one of two bass cases I ordered and then sent me a new Epiphone guitar and put me on hold, so I'm still waiting for their answer. We wrote each other off.
All banjos have great Gotohs with Amber knobs. I also use the Terminator tailpieces for years before seeing them re-spec'd with the new Gold Tone AC-12 Longneck, just crackin' new Plastic formula, had one in my shop.
So try 1. Adjust the head, then
2. set the bridge, then
3. adjust the tailpiece.
4. capo at the 1st fret, press down at the 22nd fret and see what the action is at the 7th fret, then adjust the truss rod if necessary to set the height at the neck rim border.
5. Adjust the bottom rim rod if necessary AFTER loosening the top rod back nut so you don't pull a stud. Keep the top rod tight against the front of the banjo.
There are nuances that will now surface, after I broke the ice.
The older Japanese Gold Tones play many banjo notes, they were in the 2005 Elderly catalog when others were not.
Now Recording King is no longer the new kid on the block, watch the value meter and compare features with competing Gold Tone and Recording King as part of Music Link go at it with international partnerships and on shore American jobs.
Also ran: low feature Deering Goodtime who have given a 3-ply Maple rim and headstock re-branding where both are Better quality
GrahamHawker I concur. Note how it takes 3 weeks to make a super glue guitar, then after that, the market for different glues and forest sourcing just crams them on the shipping containers from the East. I have actually seen ONE Japanese bluegrass artist guitar player who put the local pros to task and that's the way we like a pick up to play, just flames , very little ash. He has since caught the WESTBOUND, I'll try to get his name back unless someone here knows.
Otherwise ask away. I am 78 this year, way too young for these idle thoughts just to go unshared.
I hope this helps,
As always no wagers, politics, nor religion. I like to stay connected to nature by catching raptors like these and other creatures who also know how to speak with one another in their own tongues. I know they can speak because we do. My dog can play banjo, guitar not as well. All dogs are Wagatarians.
Now as for inlays being sold as bling, well Tony Pass (recently surviving upstairs.) and I both agreed that some banjo builders were selling big thick heavy rims and big clunky necks, but with delicious inlays which were hard to resist.
My customer was smart enough to buy another headstock Rose and install it at the 7th fret because it is smaller, yet irresistable. Small bling interferes with the ego less. I'm a Hermit, I only come out once in a while, too much information, leave the milk and cheese and crackers, come sit on my tailgater :)
Be encouraged, this is a place where disagreements occur; there are those who neither weave, nor spin. , but excellence is always in good taste.
Edited by - Helix on 06/25/2024 03:20:15
thisoldman - Posted - 06/25/2024: 05:07:45
A few years after I started playing banjo, I wandered into the climate controlled room (for guitars) at a Guitar Center and found a resonator banjo. Surprise! No price tag, but obviously an inexpensive instrument, looking a lot like the $200 banjos you can find on Amazon. It was lightweight, looked and felt cheap....like a toy. Didn't play it because the strings were coated with something and it was way out of tune. Sometime in the same general time frame I got a Fender B54 off of Ebay, for $200 used. Much more substantial, but with a really narrow neck and rather shrill sound, probably typical for a "bottlecap" banjo. Sold that one off at the first opportunity. Fast forward a few years and I got my hands on a Gold Tone OB250. Now that was a real banjo. Quality build and components, with an amazing tone, and a pleasure to play. That, my friend, is what I think of when I question the difference between a $100 and $1000 banjo.
fotoguzzi - Posted - 06/25/2024: 07:18:22
quote:
Originally posted by Brian MurphySonata is a brand name of banjos made by different companies, including Samick (a Korean company that is no more). They range from very basic to nice. So visually, some of their models may resemble a Recording King. But Recording King uses much better quality components than most prior imports. An analogy would be a Gibson Strat and a lower quality import Strat. They will look the same, but the electronics, tuners, and hardware will really vary and that affects sound.
Two other big variables would be setup and subjective taste. Many of us can hear nuanced differences in tone and timbre having listened to thousands of banjos. Others will perceive less difference. (Those are the people who use the term "twangy" to define banjo tone :-) ).
If you bought either of the following types for $100, you scored big time:
guitars.com/inventory/ja6474-s...ick-banjo
Excuse my ignorance but what is a Gibson Strat?
Pick-A-Lick - Posted - 06/26/2024: 06:29:53
quote:
Originally posted by spencerwilsonI'm new to banjo but have 35 years in lead guitar & guitar building. So I don't KNOW how a really good banjo is supposed to feel. So I'm turning to this community for some thought out answers. The question is - if I were blindfolded and picked up both mentioned banjos, would I notice that the $1,000 is really worth $900 more than the $100 banjo? Is there REALLY a difference? If so, is it subjective because it makes me feel good or are there truly objective reasons why the $1,000 banjo is noticeably different? Thanks in advance. -Spencer
Welcome to BHO Spencer,
Lots of good input from BHO members posted here so far.
As you posted above you are a seasoned guitar player, and as a guitar enthusiast myself of many decades I will make the comparison of an inexpensive pawnshop guitar such as a $100 Johnson with all plywood construction, high action, thick glossy poly finish, plastic saddle and nut, terrible intonation, sharp fret wire ends and tuning machines that don't hold a tune, to a $3k - $4 Martin guitar. You can tell the difference just by holding them. And of course the sound characteristics are also superior with a higher end instrument. So it goes with other stringed instruments as well, including banjos. One of the above posts explores the comparative differences for you.
Shop around and play a few high end banjos of different brands and you can get a better feel of neck architecture, nut width, string spacing at the nut and bridge, how different neck and resonator woods affect sound. Do you like the standard banjo flat neck or do you prefer a radius fretboard?
The old saying "You get what you pay for" truly does apply.
Edited by - Pick-A-Lick on 06/26/2024 06:44:58
brutus1999 - Posted - 06/27/2024: 16:20:36
Most important is playability.
Next most important is: what kind of music do you want to play. For folk music , blues, clawhammer, etc., a rim with a simple brass tone hoop is fine. I'm not a fan of the one piece aluminum "bottle cap" rim/hoop combo because I don't think it has nice sustain, but that's me.
If you want to play bluegrass in a group, you would need a relatively heavy tone ring and you won't find that in an inexpensive banjo.
Whether it has quality tuners or simple "guitar-type" tuners is another question, since the simple tuners (often) can't hold the strings in tune. Changing the bridge and even tail piece is usually not a problem if you want to.
For a hundred bucks, I would definitely say KEEP IT. If you find something else later that you like, hand onto the Sonata. And generally, it's better to buy used/pre-owned where you can often get about half off list price. And you can determine it is has been set up properly.
Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/27/2024: 16:42:59
quote:Excuse my ignorance but what is a Gibson Strat?
Well, you know, if you have to ask, I don't know that I can help you :-) That's funny. I was actually thinking of Les Paul, but you could use a Fender Strat example.
writerrad - Posted - 06/27/2024: 17:30:50
A 100 dollar Sonata was sold to you by someone who did not know what banjos cost and what she or he had, or someone who was just trying to get rid of the banjo. Recording King banjos can go from what a professional might use to a real starter instrument.
In banjos so much of the difference is in the setup. about 25 years ago George R. Gibson, a famous Kentucky banjoist came to Miami to speak and play at my retirement party. He visited our home, and I had several banjos out in the living room. He could not keep his hands off of them, and reset the bridge on my Enoch Tradesman, my Goldtone, and my WL-250 GoldTone. I had a bottom of the Goodtime RB that my wife had bought before we were married when we broke up--she was going to learn the banjo instead she found out no Bach was involved, LOL--. George reset the bridge on all of those banjos, and they sounded like gold and I played each one afraid to reset the bridge.
Enjoy your luck, and figure out setup.
writerrad - Posted - 06/27/2024: 17:34:47
quote: why do people have to act so hurt when banjos are so wonderful.
Thank you
Originally posted by TexasbanjoI have hidden a couple of flaming posts and those that quoted them.
Let's be civil and polite, please.
writerrad - Posted - 06/27/2024: 17:38:29
quote: I started playing guitar around 1960 when I was 12 and did not get involved in buying and playing banjos until around 1999. What has distinguished banjoists from guitarists is that I have found banjoists including top level high tone pickers and owners of fine old banjos are always outreaching to anyone who has a half serious desire to play a banjo. If you went around a local bluegrass or old time band or jam, and explained you wanted someone to look at a banjo for you, you might find someone who wil, and you might find someone who might honestly try to help you find the best banjo at the best price for what you want. Banjoists are concerned with the growth of the tribe.
Originally posted by spencerwilsonAll - your comments are highly valued. I read every one of them and will ruminate on these facts & opinions you all gave me. If anyone thought it would be valuable, I will report back after I visit a music store and play with higher end banjos as was advised. PS, "money" isn't the object, it's more the objectivity of the purchase / the value. So thanks for pushing me off on this quest and if you want, I'll come back and share. -Spencer
writerrad - Posted - 06/27/2024: 17:46:17
quote:
The WL-250 OB is a fine banjo It is the banjo in my BH picture and one I have owned since 2003. I own 2 Tubaphones, an 1890s Fairbanks, and an Enoch Tradesman, but that WL-250 is one of the most versatile banjos I have owned and has something that the others do not. Try it with a good sheepskin head, as I do and you will truly have something, LOL 5 banjos in this room now but it is the one I can pick up after I press post or send now
Be proud
Originally posted by thisoldmanA few years after I started playing banjo, I wandered into the climate controlled room (for guitars) at a Guitar Center and found a resonator banjo. Surprise! No price tag, but obviously an inexpensive instrument, looking a lot like the $200 banjos you can find on Amazon. It was lightweight, looked and felt cheap....like a toy. Didn't play it because the strings were coated with something and it was way out of tune. Sometime in the same general time frame I got a Fender B54 off of Ebay, for $200 used. Much more substantial, but with a really narrow neck and rather shrill sound, probably typical for a "bottlecap" banjo. Sold that one off at the first opportunity. Fast forward a few years and I got my hands on a Gold Tone OB250. Now that was a real banjo. Quality build and components, with an amazing tone, and a pleasure to play. That, my friend, is what I think of when I question the difference between a $100 and $1000 banjo.
writerrad - Posted - 06/27/2024: 17:48:52
quote:
Originally posted by Brian Murphyquote:Excuse my ignorance but what is a Gibson Strat?
cause for a lawsuit
banjoboyd - Posted - 06/27/2024: 22:50:27
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickoryquote:
Originally posted by spencerwilsonSo I have a Sonata 5-string resonator I bought out of some trailer park for $100. It has many of the same basic features as a $1,000 Recording King RK-R35.
. . . The question is - if I were blindfolded and picked up both mentioned banjos, would I notice that the $1,000 is really worth $900 more than the $100 banjo? Is there REALLY a difference?
Yes, there really is a difference between banjos that are truly worth $1000 and $100 in a well-operating market.
"Well-operating" would seem to be the operative (no pun intended) term here. I don't see that the banjo market is well-operating at all, at least compared to markets for other instruments.
jsinjin - Posted - 06/28/2024: 05:19:11
My thoughts always go to the materials science. Musical instrument development is art-craftsmanship and materials science combined. The developments in producing the variables including tone, pitch, sustain, harmonics with overtones, ability to stay in tune, “action”, weight, are all art that is based on scientific and engineering refinement. If someone does the work to test materials and develop better manufacturing processes then it’s entirely possible to get very close to the feature set in a 100 dollar banjo that a much more expensive one has. The key is the evaluation of those features by someone who can actually tell. At my level or the level of another beginner it’s probably possible to tell that the action and other features are different and perhaps even better in the more expensive banjo. However, my skill wouldn’t demonstrate a difference at all in the way one of these instruments sounds.
It is both possible for a master to tell and in some cases impossible to tell differences. A famous double blinded study placed master violinists in a blinded study with violins by famous historic and current luthiers at different levels of quality. The artists playing the instrument could very much tell the differences because the “relative feel” to them through years of practice made it difficult to hide new vs old. The blinded audience hearing from behind a screen, however, was mixed in their appreciation of the same pieces played by the same masters. What this means is likely that a 100 dollar banjo with similar tone, roughly similar action and pitch and sustain would create music that an audience would appreciate just as much as the more expensive instrument played by the same master musician. It is likely, however, that the preference of the more expensive instrument would be appreciated more by the master because of other qualities including weight, structural and torsional rigidity, ability to hold tuning, action with a given bridge setup and other qualities.
There are also some specific elements of design that have been arrived at by refinement that are likely very important. The presence of a tone ring between the two is usually a feature that simply adds a great deal to the sound quality. The arguments about shape, material composition, forging and other elements of that tone ring are as deep as cowboy hat shape preference but one can argue that the function of the tone ring is very important to most banjo designs. Thus if the 100 dollar banjo is without that feature it may never have quite the desired output that the 1000 dollar banjo has.
For me, I think that the 100 dolllar would serve me just as well to practice and learn on as the multi thousand dollar one. I was fortunate that my first one is overkill for my skill level but I’m sure that I’ll grow into it and not need another one.
North Bender - Posted - 06/28/2024: 06:50:51
Up to $1,000 you price banjos by the pound. Cheap banjos are light weight.
Keith_G - Posted - 06/28/2024: 06:55:54
quote:
Originally posted by jsinjinMy thoughts always go to the materials science. Musical instrument development is art-craftsmanship and materials science combined. The developments in producing the variables including tone, pitch, sustain, harmonics with overtones, ability to stay in tune, “action”, weight, are all art that is based on scientific and engineering refinement. If someone does the work to test materials and develop better manufacturing processes then it’s entirely possible to get very close to the feature set in a 100 dollar banjo that a much more expensive one has. The key is the evaluation of those features by someone who can actually tell. At my level or the level of another beginner it’s probably possible to tell that the action and other features are different and perhaps even better in the more expensive banjo. However, my skill wouldn’t demonstrate a difference at all in the way one of these instruments sounds.
It is both possible for a master to tell and in some cases impossible to tell differences. A famous double blinded study placed master violinists in a blinded study with violins by famous historic and current luthiers at different levels of quality. The artists playing the instrument could very much tell the differences because the “relative feel” to them through years of practice made it difficult to hide new vs old. The blinded audience hearing from behind a screen, however, was mixed in their appreciation of the same pieces played by the same masters. What this means is likely that a 100 dollar banjo with similar tone, roughly similar action and pitch and sustain would create music that an audience would appreciate just as much as the more expensive instrument played by the same master musician. It is likely, however, that the preference of the more expensive instrument would be appreciated more by the master because of other qualities including weight, structural and torsional rigidity, ability to hold tuning, action with a given bridge setup and other qualities.
There are also some specific elements of design that have been arrived at by refinement that are likely very important. The presence of a tone ring between the two is usually a feature that simply adds a great deal to the sound quality. The arguments about shape, material composition, forging and other elements of that tone ring are as deep as cowboy hat shape preference but one can argue that the function of the tone ring is very important to most banjo designs. Thus if the 100 dollar banjo is without that feature it may never have quite the desired output that the 1000 dollar banjo has.
For me, I think that the 100 dolllar would serve me just as well to practice and learn on as the multi thousand dollar one. I was fortunate that my first one is overkill for my skill level but I’m sure that I’ll grow into it and not need another one.
Can you please link the article(s) that demonstrate violinists could differentiate between new and old violins in a double blind experiment? Or use the phrasing "relative feel" or anything approximating that phrase? I can't seem to find any. I can find plenty that indicate otherwise though:
science.org/content/article/mi...und-check
nationalgeographic.com/science...-new-ones
smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/...80963222/
Edited by - Keith_G on 06/28/2024 07:01:31
adrianh - Posted - 06/28/2024: 08:43:04
Damn. I thought I owned the only Gibson Strat in the world. How many others might there be?
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 06/28/2024: 09:33:37
The only way to judge the value of a banjo to you, the musician is to sit down and play the damn thing. It’s usually true that the more expensive instrument will sound and play better, until you get to the really high end where price is based on rarity, or inlay, engraving etc.
it is the law of diminishing returns though. You might pay $1000 more for something that sounds 5 percent better. But that 5 percent is Golden!
Strumbody - Posted - 06/28/2024: 11:29:52
My .02.
I had a number of Asian banjos back in the 1970s-1980s, but opportunities to play banjo "out" faded, and I sort of let banjo slide until about 2010, when I stumbled across a filthy Deering "Goodtime" in a pawn shop. Playing it was like slicing butter with a hot knife. For all their features, the Asian banjos couldn't hold a candle (that said, some are very nice once they're set up.) But it was backless. I needed a resonator/tone ring banjo for some gigs and found a Deering Sierra basket case and fixed it up. The neck was also miraculous to play, and the tone is both bright and full. Later, for certain gigs, I decided I needed an open-back tone ring, so I bought a Deering Goodtime Special (since discontinued).
ALL of those banjos suit particular needs, and each has a sound I cherish for various reasons. My favorite is probably the backless Goodtime with a tone ring - it has a chimey sound you seldom hear.
So whether the $2500 banjo is better than the $900 banjo or even the $600 banjo is subjective even for me. . . . . They all play almost exactly the same - bulletproof great action across the spectrum
The real question is what you want to use it for, Old-Timey/Folk (Backless), Bluegrass (Resonator an Tone Ring), or something else.
Student banjos also make compromises, like having a resonator but not a resonator flange and tone ring. Or having a one-piece cast pot-and-resonator-flange that looks like an old-fashioned pop bottle top. Neither will have quite the tone of a tone-ring banjo, but either may serve your purposes until you not only need to upgrade, but also know WHAT you should be looking for when you do.
Best of luck. And don't let anyone diss your instrument. 95% of folks who judge other musicians by their choice of instrument don't deserve the instruments THEY own. . . .
eccles - Posted - 06/28/2024: 12:18:53
Just so's you don't all get too carried away I thoght I should barge in. For ages we had a prewar "Whirler" banjo made here, it was pretty crap but I still tried to play it occasionally. Eventually No.1 son (semi pro Guitarist) says, "Dad, you've got plenty of money why not stop messing about, get a decent banjo and some learning material. So around nine months I set about doing some research and found a British designed but Chinese made job which you might be surprised to learn was made of most of the right materials:- Maple pot, resonator and neck, brass tone ring, hardwood fretboard, double co rod and truss rod. Got some inlays too.It cost me the grand sum of £370, that's about $470 and I honestly can't tell the difference between how it sounds and most of the banjos which I hear being played on Youtube by the likes of Jim Pankney and others who I admire and attempt to emulate. I must however report that it is a vast improvement over the pre war Whirler which is still here but now rests in the corner. Oh yes, it is produced by the British company Stentor who are well known makers of various string instruments of all kinds. They also offer a "mastertone" copy but I didn't want to shell out the £800 ( $1,000) they want for it LOL. Best wishes to all, Richard
kimmattis123 - Posted - 06/28/2024: 14:14:32
I own {MOSTLY guitars} imports [china/mexico/japan/Korea] hand made one, and a few USA [Gibsons/harmony/guild/fenders/taylor] and Ive found that imports have a rule [ not my rule -but I love it] that in every box of ten guitars there are 2 LEMONS-1Peach- 7 ok and usable instruments. I always tell newbies and kids looking for a good instrument to play them/have someone who knows what a good one is play it. LOOK for that Peach. The Samick may have been a real Peach. I have 3 peaches
bosborne - Posted - 06/28/2024: 14:57:05
quote:
Originally posted by spencerwilsonI'm new to banjo but have 35 years in lead guitar & guitar building. So I don't KNOW how a really good banjo is supposed to feel. So I'm turning to this community for some thought out answers. The question is - if I were blindfolded and picked up both mentioned banjos, would I notice that the $1,000 is really worth $900 more than the $100 banjo? Is there REALLY a difference? -Spencer
Spencer, I'm kind-of surprised you asked this question, because of your background in guitars. The answer is, generally, yes. There are many different opinions around the "color" of the ideal banjo, for example the resonator/bluegrass types usually favor what they call a "sweet" sound, which is actually brighter or more metallic. The open-back types usually want what they call a "warm" sound or more hollow sound. There are also preferences around how much sustain. So forget, color and sustain, which have to do with personal taste, just play all notes of all strings up and down the neck. The color of each string should not change, top to bottom. There should be consistent color, across all strings. The volume of each note should be comparable, top to bottom, across all strings. The sustain of each string should be comparable, same thing. You see what I'm saying: the better banjo is the more consistent banjo over all frets and strings.
Then there's basic quality. Consistent action up and down the neck, zero buzz, tune-ability, those characteristics related to the price of parts, notable the tuners. Not much different in the guitar world, yes?
Edited by - bosborne on 06/28/2024 15:01:45
Old Hickory - Posted - 06/28/2024: 17:29:37
quote:
Originally posted by banjoboydquote:
Originally posted by Old Hickory
Yes, there really is a difference between banjos that are truly worth $1000 and $100 in a well-operating market."Well-operating" would seem to be the operative (no pun intended) term here. I don't see that the banjo market is well-operating at all, at least compared to markets for other instruments.
I disagree
"Well-operating" was my attempt at a short way to characterize a market in which the expectation of "you get what you pay for" will be encountered in most transactions.
In my previous message, I expressed my belief that in the used market there can be factors at play that result in some banjos being sold for a price unexpectedly lower than the going price for that particular make and model or for other instruments of comparable quality. The Sonata that the OP bought or saw for $100 in a trailer park is not typically a $100 banjo. In this case, he got more than he paid for. That's an outlier that in its low price goes against expectations.
It seems every month on the Hangout we have discussions started by people asking what they can expect to buy with budgets of $500, $1000, $1500, $2000, $3000 or whatever, and they get fairly accurate replies saying which banjos or types of banjos are typically available at those prices. And since the banjo market is fairly well-operating, the recommended banjos can by and large be purchased at the prices people tend to suggest. (People seem not to be aware how much used Deering Goodtime banjos actually cost, but that reflects a lack of knowledge and not anything wrong with the used banjo market.)
As to the specific numbers in the current discussion, it's a simple fact that a $100 banjo is typically a bottlecap or thin aluminum or wood rimmed shoe-and-hook beginner's instrument at a yard sale (such as an Epiphone MB100 or an old Kay) and a $1000 banjo is typically the top price for a used RK-35/36 or Gold Tone OB150, or a low price for a Gold Star GF-85 or 100. These $1000 banjos really are significantly better than actual $100 banjos. Since new ones cost only $50 to $200 more, I think it's rare to see used ones going as high as $1000.
gulfislandfred - Posted - 06/28/2024: 18:58:16
I've played a heavy Wild wood open back banjo for around ten years. Lots of local Farmers Market, garden party gigs. Pub now and then. Feature at the local monthly coffee house sort of thing.
I'll be 75 next month. The Wildwood is just too heavy for my old shoulders.
I looked for a light weight open back 5 string, budget around $1000.
I looked pretty hard, and ended up with an Epiphone MB 100. Retail $369 Canadian dollars.
Close to two years later, I think it was a good choice. Epiphone/Gibson knows how to make banjos. This is a light weight open back banjo, with a modern neck attachment, a truss rod in the neck, and a great open back banjo sound.
I haven't seen another open back banjo that sounds better than my simple little Epiphone, at any price.
My old Wildwood sounds great. I don't think it sounds better than the Epiphone. just different
exvagabond - Posted - 06/29/2024: 04:33:20
"Low quality metals all around. Thin plating, and probably chrome."
Low-quality bracket hooks can strip threads easily.
941cowboy - Posted - 06/29/2024: 05:13:27
My first banjo was an Iida banjo bought for $100, my next banjo was a Gibson Earl Scruggs. The difference in tone, sustain, playability is striking. I actually have a hard time playing the Iida now because it's quality is so poor compared with the Gibson.
GrahamHawker - Posted - 06/29/2024: 06:02:10
quote:
Originally posted by gulfislandfred
I looked pretty hard, and ended up with an Epiphone MB 100. Retail $369 Canadian dollars.
Close to two years later, I think it was a good choice. Epiphone/Gibson knows how to make banjos.
Although Epiphone don't make the MB100. I have the same banjo with Stagg on the peghead and in a different colour which cost me £67 new. These are perfectly reasonable starter banjos.
TucsonBill - Posted - 06/29/2024: 09:14:39
I think I will add my 2 cents worth in here. It will likeIy ruffel some feathers. I am in my '70's, having started with banjos about 5 yrs ago as my first instrument. My brother had an Epiphone 100 from Amazon but for various reasons did not use it. He thought I needed a new hobby and sent it to me. Since we were traveling across the country to visit little grandkids, my wife got me a banjo to have at the kids house so I would not have to be without one. It is a Recording King open back, powder blue in color, one of what I think was from the "Sky Series" of the mid 1970's. I have since built a couple of simple banjos, and collected some others. I do not consider myself a skilled player, more of an experienced beginner. I have played for friends and family in Tenn, NY, and Arizona; in song circles at a music fest in Tucson and a jam session in Tenn. A couple of months ago I attended a banjo camp also. I have had people who are much more skilled than myself play both my Recording King and my home built banjos and made them sound much better than I do. My home built is a tackhead design, 5 layers of various hardwoods pot, laminated neck, rawhide head, and walnut fretless fingerboard. These work well for me. My ear cannot tell enough of a difference in other banjos to justify a large expense. If I am not to a skill level where I can make my equipment sound nearly as good as an experienced player it is not the banjo that is the limiting factor, my inferior skills are. Would I like to get better? Of course, and I am regular practicing to do so. However, if I cannot hear a significant difference between my banjos and "good ones" when I play them, and the people I play for also can't really tell the difference due to my skill set; then the only advantage for me to spending a lot of money would be "bragging rights". It seems to be human nature that we often think that new piece of equipment will somehow suddenly improve our skills. Most often it does not. Too many times over the years I have seen that fail. It is the time spent learning and practicing that increases one's skill, not the equipment. Does good equipment matter? Sure it does, but in most cases not until the student had developed enough skill to actually see and feel the difference. Maximize your skill on beginner equipment first, then if you need or can justify better stuff get it then. I will suggest that probably 80% of people, certainly those playing just for enjoyment, will never need or develop past what can be done on "basic" equipment. As a side note: if you think that top end instruments are required to play well or successfully, just look at Wille Nelson and his old guitar that he calls Trigger.
Old Hickory - Posted - 06/29/2024: 10:17:51
quote:
Originally posted by TucsonBillDoes good equipment matter? Sure it does, but in most cases not until the student had developed enough skill to actually see and feel the difference. Maximize your skill on beginner equipment first, then if you need or can justify better stuff get it then.
True, as long as the beginner equipment meets accpetable standards for playability. Goodtime banjos, Gold Tone Cripple Creeks or AC-1, Recording King Dirty Thirties, Epiphone MB100 are a few examples I've personally played that I can say fulfill the requirements to be suitable beginner banjos. Mainly, they can be adjusted for playable action all up and down the neck, they intonate correctly (so they play in tune), their hardware is good enough to last more than just a few years, and they are capable of sounding pretty good -- though not as full, rich, and loud as objectively superior banjos.
I have played, or tried to play, banjos that didn't meet these criteria. Yes, with my 50+ years of playing I can sometimes get acceptable sound even out of these. I know how to play, so I have ideas of how I have to play.
But such a poor quality instrument creates obstacles for beginners. A beginner needs an instrument that works with them to help them become the best player they can be. Not one that keeps them from becoming any kind of player.
Sounds like you built a good instrument. Good for you.
quote:
Originally posted by TucsonBillI will suggest that probably 80% of people, certainly those playing just for enjoyment, will never need or develop past what can be done on "basic" equipment.
Of course.
But let's acknowledge there are players who really can do more with higher level instruments.
Plenty of us have seen and heard the promotional videos of Jens Kruger, Alison Brown and maybe also Ryan Cavanaugh playing Deering Goodtime banjos. They're wonderful. They show what these banjos are capable of. Why, then, do Jens, Alison or Ryan record or perform live with Deering banjos other than the Goodtime? (And Alison actually uses Prucha banjos even more than her Deering Julia Belle)
We know why: Because the inescapable truth is there really are objective differences between the lowest cost banjos in the world and the more expensive ones that have the minimal features desired and valued by experienced amateur and professional players.
quote:
Originally posted by TucsonBillAs a side note: if you think that top end instruments are required to play well or successfully, just look at Wille Nelson and his old guitar that he calls Trigger.
Don't let beat-up appearances fool you.
Trigger is a Martin N-20 that Willie has had since 1969. It has a Sitka spruce top, Brazilian Rosewood back and sides, and mahogany neck with ebony fretboard. The wear and damage Trigger has suffered does not change the fact that it was built as and will always be a top end guitar.
A question in line with the current discussion would be: Does a new $47 Hohner nylon stringed guitar sound as good as Willie's Trigger (a Martin) did when he first got it and will it sound any good with similar wear and damage 55 years from now?
Edited by - Old Hickory on 06/29/2024 10:21:56
eccles - Posted - 06/30/2024: 08:52:23
Interesting note about the Martin there OH. I doubt if you will ever see one but of course it was the Spanish who invented the guitar and they still make them. Martin just copied them in the first place and I happen to own one and it wasn't that expensive. Now what you may find interesting is that they still use nylon strings having swapped over from animal gut strings more than a few years ago. My guitar is so strung and has all the other traditional features which Martin copied:- Straight grain spruce top, mahogany neck back and sides, ebony fretboard and brass machined tuners and believe it or not, brass frets. It is not a particularly loud instrument but has that wonderful warm sound beloved by classical guitarists.
gulfislandfred - Posted - 06/30/2024: 09:44:31
I think a simple, lightweight open back banjo, like the MB100, with good setup, can sound as good as any high end light weight open back banjo.
Guitars are different. The construction, woods used, size and shape of body all have an effect on tone and ease of playing.
A traditional open back lightweight banjo with a hardwood rim depends on choice of head material, how the head is tensioned, and neck attachment and shape.
The MB100 has a truss rod and modern neck attachment. That's an improvement over the the pre war models, even the best. Shape of neck is pretty good. The neck on my old 8 pound Wildwood open back has better shape and feel than the MB100. The heavy Gibson style tone ring in the Wildwood makes a different sound, but the lightweight open back sound is also good, and maybe more traditional .
sobx - Posted - 06/30/2024: 17:09:33
quote:
Originally posted by brutus1999Most important is playability.
BINGO!
I started picking in 2002 (more accurately started making noise). I found a Fender banjo in the local music shop for $199. It looked pretty. It was real shiny. I tried to play on that junk for about a year, finally gave up and sold it for $150.
I still had the bug so the next year I found another Fender banjo in the same music store. It was $399. It cost more so it must be better, right? Well I made noise on that piece of junk for another year. The frets were high, the tuners slipped, the next was thick, I spent more time trying to keep it in tune than I did learning to pick. I sold it the next year for $200.
I still had the bug and I had moved east near Zepps Country Music in Wendell. I went in there "kicking tires" and Marc explained to me about banjos and ban-junks. I ended up leaving with a nice Deering Sierra archtop that was $1200, more than I thought I could afford at the time. Amazingly enough I actually started making some music, not noise, on the banjo.
I liked it so much that I contacted Deering and they told me they had a Deluxe in the shop they'd sell me for $2800. The neck inlay was white MOP but I was told the inlay guy had come in on Monday morning and accidentally inlaid the headstock with gold MOP, so it was a mismatch that no one really wanted. Best of all, they'd let me pay $400 per month for seven months. It arrived in a couple of weeks.
I had already began taking lessons each Wednesday and the Sierra and Deluxe made all the difference. As I began to improve, it finally dawns on the that all those times I'd gotten frustrated and given up, it wasn't because I couldn't learn to play the banjo, it was because I was trying to learn on cheap chinese-made junk.
I finally sold the Sierra archtop to a music instructor at UNC (still regret it) and the Deluxe to a local guy in a band. Now I pick a Huber Truetone VRB-3.
It's like carpentry, Brother. The quality of your work depends on your tools. Can you remodel a house with Harbor Freight tools? Yeah sure, it'll work. It'll just take you twice as long and twice the effort than if you buy good quality tools that do the job efficiently.
Sometimes you can just hold something in your hands and know it's quality. The heft, the feel, the workmanship just "speaks" to you VS something than run off an assembly line in Hong Kong or Taiwan.
No you don't have to start out with a $5,000 banjo. But my advice is buy the best banjo you can afford.
SOBX BANJO VIDEO ~ HUBER VRB3 VINTAGE
Edited by - sobx on 06/30/2024 17:10:56
Ivor - Posted - 07/01/2024: 07:36:11
May I give a straight answer to the original question? I have a £100 banjo and a Recording King 35.
When I returned to playing the banjo after a 40 year break, I thought the cheapie sounded okay. I then spent hours and hours setting up the head tension, action, buying a better bridge and strings…it sounded ten times better and I still use it for practice and once I get a new tune under my belt, I get the RK out and suddenly I become a musician rather than a twanger!
The cheap banjo is okay and if it’s built reasonably well, can often be set up to sound quite good, but the extra money paid for a better banjo like the RK inspires you to play more, I’m convinced it’s easier to play and sounds so much better.
Edited by - Ivor on 07/01/2024 07:36:47
CaseyJones - Posted - 07/02/2024: 00:38:31
Wait a minute…. If I describe my banjo as “twangy” everyone is going to know that I’m a dumb newb, who can’t tell the difference between a banjo and a roto-tiller?
Shoot.
What about saying my fourth string goes “”PLOOONG?” That one is cool…. right?
“It don’t mean a thang, if it ain’t got that twang” -me
okbluegrassbanjopicker - Posted - 07/05/2024: 06:39:42
As has been said before, the J-hooks on some inexpensive banjos will fail far before the drum head approaches anywhere near the pressure of what a quality stretcher band and hooks can withstand.
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