jsinjin - Posted - 06/05/2024:  18:33:21

HELLO ALL!   I'm the original poster on this.   It keeps popping back up.   I completely have everything figured out.   This was before I understood the angle of approach and finger movement for the percussion of the clawhammer strike on the string.   Once I watched a couple of videos from under a clear head I was able to slow the video down and watch the angle of attack, the distances and the way the fingers returned and practice that while taping myself.   No problems since then except that my musical ear isn't very refined but I have some software I'm practicing with on that.   I practice two to three hours per day and track everything from timing to volume to patterns.   I'm not learning any songs yet but I have memorized and can shift to any chord at any time in the open G and the CC and the aDADE scales.   I love to practice technique and the movement and I am working with both the index and middle finger.   I built myself a set of Hammond exercises for Banjo with everything from hammers, pulls and slides and drop thumb and even a movement where I hit two separate strings with index and middle in sequence like a chime.   I haven't really been interested in playing any songs yet but the practice is something I absolutely love.   Again, this is from several months ago and I'm no longer at all frustrated except with some questions I have had about minor and 7th music theory over in the theory section.

thanks for all the advice!   I'm doing better now.

jsj

Edited by - jsinjin on 08/24/2024 18:40:45

tdennis - Posted - 06/05/2024:  19:17:49

Some people are good at teaching themselves, others are best off taking lessons & having some personal guidance.  A teacher will accelerate your learning & help develop good habits, (posture,  hand position, ergonomics etc.)

Edited by - tdennis on 06/05/2024 19:21:02

jdeluke137 - Posted - 06/05/2024:  19:22:46

You need a good teacher. You seem determined, which is a big part of learning anything. With a good teacher you’ll get feedback and structure which will help you move forward. If there’s no one in your area find someone who does online Zoom lessons like Jack Baker (who is active on this site). If you follow your teacher’s plan and practice every day you WILL make progress. I tell people all the time that I’m not talented but I am determined. Hang in there! You can do this!  

Owen - Posted - 06/05/2024:  19:28:11

Geez jsinjin, it sounds like you've got more of an uphill battle than I do.    I can't offer any particular insights or advice, but I've been told by knowledgeable (?) people that in my case it's 'cause I'm stupid, I'm lazy, and I haven't followed some particular instructor or other.   

I wish you well.

Edited by - Owen on 06/05/2024 19:39:59

A Drum On A Stick - Posted - 06/05/2024:  20:02:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

I have been trying brainjo for two weeks at clawhammer and have made zero progress at all. I’m really not sure how I should practice or start. I can barely bum diddy and have sort of just defaulted to trying that for 20 to 30 min at a time but I can’t hit individual strings to save my life.

---

That sounds normal to me.

Internalizing the basic 'bum ditty' takes time, and is initially frustrating.  As overplayed an analogy as it is, think of it like balancing a bicycle.  Impossible until it becomes second nature.

My main suggestion (beyond getting a teacher, I never did) is to set realistic simple goals and lean a very basic tune that you enjoy the sound of.  It took me weeks to get 'cluck hold hen' to sound anything vaguely like music.  But once I got it, I was hooked.

Tuning is a skill, too.  Don't expect to be good at it quickly.  For now, appreciate that tuners exist.  After some time try tuning by ear before turning on the tuner.  After some months or years you'll find you can do it mostly unaided.

TimFoster - Posted - 06/05/2024:  20:28:40

Yeah man… you may not be lucky enough to get by on raw musical talent alone, but it sounds like you have all the right tools in the toolbox to earn it the hard-won way.

By profession you’re detail oriented, understand how to apply and transform/translate patterns, analytical and can likely be stubbornly persistent in a methodical way.

Add to that a sensible regimen with peer review (instructor!) and you’ll get it. But no way around it, takes time and practice — which can be a hard pill to swallow at our age. But plenty of folks with less have managed it, and if you really want it you will too.

wrench13 - Posted - 06/05/2024:  20:51:49

Music is a skill. Skill, by its definition, is something gained thru work, diligence and perseverance. People play for 50+ years and still working on that skill. Give it time bubba.

doryman - Posted - 06/05/2024:  21:30:12

First, two weeks is nothing. Think in terms of months and years, not minutes, days and weeks. Second, and perhaps more importantly, why at the tender age of 53 did you decide to express your musicality by playing the clawhammer banjo? Do you regularly listen to Old Time (OT) music. Can you hum any OT tune? Can you sing any OT song? I ask because, if you are not familiar with the genre, if the music is not already in your head, it's a hundred times harder to learn to play. Not impossible, just a lot, A LOT, harder. If you are 100% committed to playing clawhammer banjo, and you're not familiar with the genre, then listen to the music at every chance you get. Get it in your head. Otherwise, then maybe try the guitar and play the songs that you knew by heart when you were growing up.

Comtngal - Posted - 06/05/2024:  21:33:51

Slow way down.

With your hand in the claw shape, down pick the heavy 4th/ top string only. Once.

As slow as you need to, to be accurate.

Stop your hand by resting the thumb on the fifth string with some pressure.


That’s it. Don’t do any thing else until that is smooth. Then try the next string.

No need to pop off the 5th string yet. Just rest it.

janolov - Posted - 06/06/2024:  00:59:45

When I started with the banjo about 58 years ago I was in the same situation, but I studied Physics and Mathematics which helped a lot to understand music and music theory. A lot of the music theory can be explained by just analyze how a string vibrates.

I think the following is the most important to think of as a beginner:

1. Exercise, exercise and exercise! Two weeks is nothing. It took me a half year to play the first tune good. 


2. Don't speed up the tempo. Play slowly and try to focus on getting  a steady, even rhythm.


3. Listen a lot to music and try to analyze what you hear.


4. Tune the banjo every day, or several times every day. When I was learning (by myself) I began to use at least two different tunings every session.


5. Get a good teacher. You can learn a lot by yourself but a good teacher will help you learn the right things, and will prevent you from learning wrong things!

Good luck!

scott_sovereign - Posted - 06/06/2024:  01:13:05

As others have pointed out, 2 weeks is nothing. Some pick it up quicker, and some take longer, but I think all would agree that playing clawhammer is very unnatural at first. I'm 10 years older than you and am only a month or so farther along than you are. I think as we get older, it does take us longer to acquire new skills than it did when we were younger. In my case, I've been involved in music all my life, have played instruments since grade school and stringed instruments for 50 years, although not in recent years. All that being said, you may be farther along that I was after 2 weeks! I missed individual strings too, but now it is getting much better (though nobody is going to mistake me for Clifftop contest winner anytime soon). Keep at it. I don't expect to be able to play anything that I would want anyone to hear at even a basic level for at least 6 months and maybe even a year.

Pomeroy - Posted - 06/06/2024:  01:43:01

The brain is extraordinary. It has built the connections that enable you to negotiate high level mathematics and computer science. You will be aware that intellectual capability did not happen overnight. By definition all absolute beginners lack the required skills.



My best advice is to trust that your brain can and will adapt and acquire the facility asked of it to learn to play a musical instrument. Music is different from mathematics and computer science in one significant respect; though we need the motor skills to utilise the physical instrument the music we are creating has a strong sensual and emotional basis. We need to listen, feel and want to replicate. We also need to give ourselves total - and permanent - permission to make mistakes. Our mistakes are essential to correcting and fine-tuning our learning. 



For most of us abilities such as an 'ear' - the ability to identify changes in pitch - we develop gradually and concurrently with our engagement with playing music. Very few people have that innate ability. When I was a beginner I could not easily hear pitch or chord changes. Now I'm able to pick tunes up by ear in sessions. It is not witchcraft it is a skill that derives from engagement and active listening over time.



Constructive self-analysis is useful; unreasonably beating oneself up is not useful. When picking up an instrument we need to relax, apply ourselves, and trust to our (in your case well-proven) capacity to learn progressively. Enjoyment, not ambition or expectation, is the key to application. Have fun. You'll surprise yourself.

Edited by - Pomeroy on 06/06/2024 01:51:03

SebastianRogers - Posted - 06/06/2024:  02:28:43

Hi John

That was me, to a tee, five years ago. Now I'm playing in a band, at fifty seven years of age. So hang in there.

1. Maths is great, your going to storm through music theory and in a couple of years you'll find that you understand and can use concepts the musically 'talented' are struggling with, based on my experience of taking lessons in a class.

2. Brainjo is almost certainly the right thing for you, for a coupel of years, Josh Turknet explains things logocally from a neurological perspective. However getting one on one or smal group in person lessons is also fantastic, just for the company if nothing else.

3. You are 'not' tone deaf. I was constantly told this as a child. That's bollocks. What it was was that I never took the time to listen and try to replicate sounds, I was far too interested in written repreentations. It takes a while but start not by trying to hear absolute changes but just noting the changes between notes and chords. Don't worry if they are 'higher' or 'lower' just identify that they are different. Then once you can do that start to work on relative changes of notes, it will come. Listen to lots of music. One trick from Brad Laird is to start identifying and following single instruments in a song, so just follow the banjo, try to isolate it, not determinewhat the notes are but seperate them from the mandolin, bass and guitar. Then repeat for a different instrument in the same song. This will get you into 'active' rather than 'passive' listening.

4. Tuning is a black art, but it comes, my singing teacher, when I started with her two months ago was amazed that I can tune the banjo by ear, and so was I. Its just happened. One trick. Get it in tune with the tuner then detune just one string, say the 2nd, and then by playing the fourth fret on the 3rd string and the open 2nd string as you tune up try and get it to an open B. Then check with a tuner. Its hard to tune up when its only slightly out, but tuning up a half step is much easier.

5. Talking of singing, sing, sing a lot, or hum if you can't remember the words, or there are no words. When learning a tune listen repeatedly to it and hum or sing along. When you can hum or sing the melody without the music your brain has got it and somehow your playing adjusts in tiny ways so that what your playing sounds like 'music' rather than 'notes in sequence'. I remember the first song that I did this with 'Red River Valley' and the moment it happened, I felt my brain change, one of my fondest memories.

6. Play a lot, play with yourself but play with others, as soon as you can. Don't worry that your 'bad', they were too, or still are and frankly most of them are concentrating so hard they won't even notice your mistakes. Get to slow jams. FInd a friend, convince them to learn an instrument and play together.

7. Be bloody minded, its not talent that counts its determination and useful practice and enjoyment. I've just spent twenty minutes playing G scales with a metronome, it was a joy not a burden, I often spend an hour just practicing one thing, say a single song or even just transitioning between rolls and vamping (more Scrugs style I guess).

Above all have fun!

Sebastian

reubenstump - Posted - 06/06/2024:  03:18:31

How long did it take you to understand Green's Theorem or eigenvectors? More than two weeks, I'd wager.



And as someone pointed out, you're now trying to exercise your physical body in a coordinated fashion.



Give it time. You didn't get that PhD in two weeks, either.

 

carlb - Posted - 06/06/2024:  04:48:23

Ear training could help; humming or singing.

paulhealey - Posted - 06/06/2024:  04:55:43

In my opinion, the hardest thing, about trying something new, is accepting the fact that you’re going to be bad at it for a while.

It doesn’t matter if it’s music, work, a game, hobby, whatever.

Don’t get discouraged. Measure progress against yourself - did you successfully hit the string you were aiming for once during that practice session? Try for twice tomorrow.

I’m going to assume that picking up the banjo at 53, you’re doing this for enjoyment. Learning, the journey, should be fun. Don’t compare yourself to Adam Hurt and accept that you’ll get there when you get there.

Finally, the person who suggested looking for a teacher - I can’t agree with that more. Online lessons like Brainjo are good, but nothing beats a real teacher, especially in person, when you’re starting out. They can work with you on your basic stroke and really help you get that dialed in pretty quickly. That is the foundation and you don’t want to get that messed up.

NotABanjoYoda - Posted - 06/06/2024:  05:02:40

Just strum, sing and smile. Then youll know more than most musicians.

Dave Churm - Posted - 06/06/2024:  05:29:37

I'm old and sound terrible, playing banjo since 1985, but something makes me want to pick it every day for a couple of hours

thisoldman - Posted - 06/06/2024:  05:37:06

Occassionaly, thankfully rarely, I'll read a post from someone who has been playing for 2 or 3 weeks, can play Cripple Creek but not quite up to speed, and want to know how to get faster. Like they can play it at 110 BPM and want to get to 135 BPM. We all have our own journey, take as much time as you need....it will come. Six months from now you'll be pleased with the progress you've made. The beginning of your banjo journey sounds a lot like mine did. Thankfully you're (relatively) young.

GS - Posted - 06/06/2024:  05:44:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

So I have zero musical talent or understanding. I am tone deaf and so bad that I can’t tell you if something is out of tune or not. I can’t clap along to a beat and don’t understand time as in 3 or 4 and have no concept of what a key of D or E or whatever is. Strangely I have a math PhD and a strong background in computer science but no understanding of music at all. I have been trying brainjo for two weeks at clawhammer and have made zero progress at all. I’m really not sure how I should practice or start. I can barely bum diddy and have sort of just defaulted to trying that for 20 to 30 min at a time but I can’t hit individual strings to save my life.



My only other musical attempt was when I was about 7 my mother made me take a single unit of piano that was a disaster. I’m now 53. The only way I can tune the thing is with a tuner; I literally can’t tell if two strings are lower or higher than each other.



All total in my notebook (I take copious notes in a journal) I have had about 17 hours of practice over two weeks and I can’t even come close to staying in time with any song or metronome.





Is there a way to start that I’m somehow failing? I know it takes time but this feels like zero improvement over a lot of daily twice per day practice. When strikenth bottom string there is a 50:50 chance that I hit it.



Thanks for any advice.



Jsj

---

Now, Jsj, I've been playing for the grand total of...3 months or so, so I consider myself somewhat of an expert 

There's times I beat myself up about progress. That's not good, really. I think it helps to break things down into smaller chunks. There's times I look at a song, even a few measures, and think I'll never learn that, but bit by bit, over a couple of weeks or so, things hopefully stick. Yes, I make mistakes, but I'm trying not to be too bothered by that - I'm just glad that some daily effort, half hour or so, is paying off. And, some days are better than others; sometimes I maybe should have left the banjo alone! I think, also, even just playing the unfretted strings is helpful in getting your fingers to do what you want. It's early days. You will get there!

GS

Culloden - Posted - 06/06/2024:  07:07:09

All of us were terrible when we first started. It gets better with perseverance.

KCJones - Posted - 06/06/2024:  07:15:27

Success is determined by criteria.

Set your own criteria for success, don't let others do it for you.

fairlane64 - Posted - 06/06/2024:  07:35:19

When I first started 3 years ago I tried 3 finger and had a really hard time. I was 65 and no music experience. I figured I needed to know the basics and how things worked. Bot several books and got a teacher. Started to learn how banjos work and all the parts and Started a year long build. Got so I could play a couple songs after 6 months but not up to speed and rhythm was off. Had surgery on my hand and arm and hand and couldn't fret very well after that. I have been working now on clawhamm and it is really hard to get going
I find if I practice every day for a week and lay off for a couple days it helps. One issue to remember is that playing the banjo is supposed to be fun
I sometimes just play the string just to listen to the sound. I have just finished my 8th open back and sold 2 with excellent results
Have fun with it and don't be hRd on yourself it takes time
A good teacher helps and there is allot of YouTube to watch to get ideas

Tim Jumper - Posted - 06/06/2024:  07:50:19

We were all terrible when we started.
I was getting nowhere trying to figure out the moves, until I actually saw someone doing them and the light bulb lit up; but it still took months after that to get my playing to sound like music rather than noise.

Banner Blue - Posted - 06/06/2024:  08:51:45

You can work on right hand technique while doing other things like watching a video by putting a soft sponge under the strings. Then sit for many minutes just doing one thing like striking the fourth string. After several 20 minute sessions, start striking the fourth and first string. After several 20 minutes sessions, start striking the fourth, first and fifth strings. Mindless--a zillion repetitions over several sessions.
Learn songs you already know separate from playing them on the banjo by singing the chord changes. For instance Happy Birthday sing the chords to yourself instead of the words. G-G-G-G-C-G...
Be sure to be able to sing/hum songs to your self completely before trying to play them. Too many teachers assign songs that the player has never heard (and may not even like). Sing/hum the notes, but also sing/hum the chord changes.

knewberry - Posted - 06/06/2024:  09:13:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

So I have zero musical talent or understanding. I am tone deaf and so bad that I can’t tell you if something is out of tune or not. I can’t clap along to a beat and don’t understand time as in 3 or 4 and have no concept of what a key of D or E or whatever is. Strangely I have a math PhD and a strong background in computer science but no understanding of music at all. I have been trying brainjo for two weeks at clawhammer and have made zero progress at all. I’m really not sure how I should practice or start. I can barely bum diddy and have sort of just defaulted to trying that for 20 to 30 min at a time but I can’t hit individual strings to save my life.



My only other musical attempt was when I was about 7 my mother made me take a single unit of piano that was a disaster. I’m now 53. The only way I can tune the thing is with a tuner; I literally can’t tell if two strings are lower or higher than each other.



All total in my notebook (I take copious notes in a journal) I have had about 17 hours of practice over two weeks and I can’t even come close to staying in time with any song or metronome.





Is there a way to start that I’m somehow failing? I know it takes time but this feels like zero improvement over a lot of daily twice per day practice. When strikenth bottom string there is a 50:50 chance that I hit it.



Thanks for any advice.



Jsj

---

After reading your post, I thought you were describing me. Looks like we have the same set of problems. There were a lot of upbeat and encouraging replies. I want to offer my encouragement and best wishes also. My problem is time. I may not have enough of it left, (I'm almost 80 years old).  I have no desire to stand in front of an audience and play, it's just for my own satisfaction. But I will keep on learning as much as I can whenever I can, and hope you do the same. I appreciate all the good constructive comments sent. We just need to keep on trying, Good luck and best wishes. Ken

Silver_Falls - Posted - 06/06/2024:  09:35:11

You're doing fine. Give yourself the grace to know that things will take time. This is a journey of small steps.

One of the disadvantages of self-teaching is that you're not receiving any encouragement from anyone. In the absence of this, we tend to be our own harshest critics.

The "brainjo" program may or may not be the best approach for you. It's possible, given your background, that you may be taking too cerebral an approach as it is. In this case, the rational/thinking part of your brain may be getting in the way. By filtering everything through the left brain, the right brain processes of intuition and muscle-memory may be impeded. As much as possible, try to relax your inner critic, have fun with the vibrations, get into the flow.

Never mind all the advices and opinions given here, including this one. Your dedication is the key, and your persistence will bring you to what works best for you.

JSB88 - Posted - 06/06/2024:  11:23:09

Give 2 finger picking a go. It's easier (for me at least) and a tune sounds like a tune very quickly. And you can cut out the ornamentation and get the melody down then add the ornamentation in (maybe not a recommended practice but you'll at least feel like your playing the tune).

jsinjin - Posted - 06/06/2024:  17:07:46

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

First, two weeks is nothing. Think in terms of months and years, not minutes, days and weeks. Second, and perhaps more importantly, why at the tender age of 53 did you decide to express your musicality by playing the clawhammer banjo? Do you regularly listen to Old Time (OT) music. Can you hum any OT tune? Can you sing any OT song? I ask because, if you are not familiar with the genre, if the music is not already in your head, it's a hundred times harder to learn to play. Not impossible, just a lot, A LOT, harder. If you are 100% committed to playing clawhammer banjo, and you're not familiar with the genre, then listen to the music at every chance you get. Get it in your head. Otherwise, then maybe try the guitar and play the songs that you knew by heart when you were growing up.

---

I do listen to Irish music because I have traveled to Ireland a lot.  I have always had a very hard time with remembering tunes, melodies, songs, and beat.  Let alone dancing or rhythm.   I'm the guy who pretends to sing happy birthday when the group does it at the office.   I can never remember songs and I have very little understanding of why keys and chords change.  I completely understand the physics behind it, circle of fifths, open waves vs closed, harmonics and how the octave is put together.   But I couldn't tell you if an instrument is out of tune or tell if a song is wrong.   Guitar or otherwise.   I grew up on hard classical in the house with trips to the symphony and opera with parents who wanted culture for the kids.

Owen - Posted - 06/06/2024:  18:04:11

Well John, I think your dilemma has been solved ... never mind that bluegrass or Irish or olde tyme stuff .... just play conventional "classical" music on yer banjo.  

ceemonster - Posted - 06/06/2024:  18:39:26

You're in luck, OP. These days you can take lessons from any number of fantastic master teachers remotely on Zoom or whatever videoconference format. Advisable for anybody, but highly advisable for one as new to all this as you are--not just to banjo, but to the rudimentary basics of playing and understanding music. There's no shame in being a beginner and profiting from the assistance and input of a teacher.



When I started out, some of the wisest words I heard from my clawhammer banjo teacher were that some people take longer to get it, some pick it up faster, but if you are motivated and you keep at it . . . you WILL get it, guaranteed. And that is absolutely true.   

Oh, and the other posters are correct:  Two weeks is nuthin'.

Edited by - ceemonster on 06/06/2024 18:40:57

Joe Phillips - Posted - 06/06/2024:  19:15:49

All these comments are useful, helpful advice. I've played guitar for 60 years and recently returned to the banjo -- not the five-string long neck I tortured all those years ago teaching myself clawhammer (not particularly well) -- but a tenor banjo which is challenging on many levels. So far, I really stink, but I'm playing through exercises and songs and taking my time. I'm 74 and time is an issue, but I am plugging away to nail some jazz rhythms, the impossible stretches in the chords, and the unfamiliar but logical scale layouts.

Clawhammer, I believe, is a tough place to start with its syncopation and galloping rhythm. I started with the two finger style in the Pete Seeger book (that was the sum of printed banjo instruction available to me then) and worked up to frailing, with a couple of tips from experienced players. A good teacher can certainly set you straight on time, scales and keys, technique. etc. The number of lessons you may need depends on a lot of things, but take a few lessons to get you started.

I'm new to this site, but I've found the posters to be knowledgeable, helpful, and generous with their time and advice. I think you'll like it here.

John Gribble - Posted - 06/07/2024:  00:29:45

Go ahead and be terrible for a while. Premature Perfectionism is the great killer of adult beginners. And I agree with the suggestion of lessons. I would have never made it without them.

coalcracker2 - Posted - 06/07/2024:  05:25:00

Try BanjoBenClark.com
Excellent, structured, guaranteed success and very supportive.
Give it a try.
Good Luck with your new endeavor.
"NEVER GIVE UP ... GREAT THINGS TAKE TIME"

mjsmith17 - Posted - 06/07/2024:  05:36:51

Hahaha, you’re me! I’ve been “learning” banjo for almost three years and I’ve just about got the three songs from Jim Pankey’s beginner lessons learnt. I’m a 44 year old engineer who played some piano when I was a kid. I also have no idea what I’m hearing when I pluck a single string, so a tuner is a must. I have friends who can identify songs from a couple notes and they’ll just pick up a guitar and play a song they’ve never tried before. I think guys like us just need a time and a lot of patience. I think try not to get stuck on one method. Pankey was great for me, I tried others and not so much.

Edited by - mjsmith17 on 06/07/2024 05:41:08

MaineGeezer - Posted - 06/07/2024:  05:45:06

I think learning anything gets more difficult as we age, but it's still possible, and probably good exercise for our brains.
I taught myself to play the banjo, badly, around 60 years ago. I didn't get significantly better until I finally got a banjo teacher about 10 years ago. A good teacher helps, a lot.

The suggestion to listen to a lot of the kind of music you want to play is a good one, too.

dbrooks - Posted - 06/07/2024:  05:57:11

You have gotten some good advice and plenty of support here. We are generally pretty nice folks who have been down your path. The suggestions repeated most often tend to be the best - because they work. Slow practice. Modest expectations. Trust the process. Find a style of music that you like. Find a teacher.

I'd be happy to meet with you in a Zoom session to see how you are doing and offer some advice. I have taught clawhammer at the Louisville Folk School for the past 5-6 years, both classes and private lessons. Mostly beginning students. These have included some Zoom lessons. No cost. Just a friendly session.

David

Dan Gellert - Posted - 06/07/2024:  07:39:49

Learning to make music is first and foremost learning how to listen. I'd suggest finding as many ways to exercise your "ear" as you can. The musical "ear" is NOT just your ears and auditory processing, it involves your whole self, physically and emotionally.

Sing and dance. If you can walk, you can dance. If you can talk, you can sing. Nobody ever has to hear or see you. They're fundamentals of your humanity. Do not let anybody, including yourself, convince you that you can't.

I'll make you the same offer as David just did. I do recommend taking a few private lessons, from a few different teachers. You're just starting to explore the infinite variety of paths into and through the realm of music.

Mark Styles - Posted - 06/07/2024:  07:48:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsinjin

So I have zero musical talent or understanding. I am tone deaf and so bad that I can’t tell you if something is out of tune or not. I can’t clap along to a beat and don’t understand time as in 3 or 4 and have no concept of what a key of D or E or whatever is. Strangely I have a math PhD and a strong background in computer science but no understanding of music at all. I have been trying brainjo for two weeks at clawhammer and have made zero progress at all. I’m really not sure how I should practice or start. I can barely bum diddy and have sort of just defaulted to trying that for 20 to 30 min at a time but I can’t hit individual strings to save my life.



My only other musical attempt was when I was about 7 my mother made me take a single unit of piano that was a disaster. I’m now 53. The only way I can tune the thing is with a tuner; I literally can’t tell if two strings are lower or higher than each other.



All total in my notebook (I take copious notes in a journal) I have had about 17 hours of practice over two weeks and I can’t even come close to staying in time with any song or metronome.





Is there a way to start that I’m somehow failing? I know it takes time but this feels like zero improvement over a lot of daily twice per day practice. When strikenth bottom string there is a 50:50 chance that I hit it.



Thanks for any advice.



Jsj

---

Check out my banjo intro lesson youtube.com/watch?v=l85jhjc7_Eg

thisoldman - Posted - 06/07/2024:  08:47:37

I just recalled something that helped me when I first picked up the banjo. I downloaded a "rhythm trainer" app, one that had the notes (visual) and the beats (auditory) to help me better understand rhythm. Recently I dragged out my bass (put aside after a short try at it before I stuck to banjo), and since rhythm is REALLY important when playing bass I came up with another way to practice. Every night, right after I turn out the light, I tap out a bunch of different rhythm patterns, with quarter notes, eighth notes and rests. No fretting, no picking, just the rhythm in my head and fingers.

Waldguy - Posted - 06/07/2024:  08:52:40

The fact that you know you're terrible or a slow learner or whatever is actually very very very encouraging! I know people who play for years and still don't know that they're tone deaf and really suck at their timing. They don't want to hear it.

So, one day at a time, you'll slowly get there. Advice in this forum is excellent, especially with the "take it slow" and get advice part.

reallyoldman - Posted - 06/07/2024:  10:43:17

You have received a lot of good advice to your question. You might want to look at Deering Clawhammer Lessons Part 1 and then Part 2. In it Barry Hunn does a great job of teaching basic clawhammer technique from the beginning and taking you through it very slowly and progressively.
It can aid you with other online programs as well as with a personal teacher. Some may think that Hunn's lessons are boring and too basic or slow, but they may be of help to you, from your self description.
As others have emphasized, any technique takes a long time to master and two weeks is barely scratching the surface. Stick with it and it will come eventually.

Bob Corder - Posted - 06/07/2024:  14:22:45

My advice is to get an excellent instructor (ask around). There is so much to learn about playing the banjo, be it clawhammer-style or Scruggs-style. That said, some people were born with great musical talent, and they are the ones who will excel at the highest level. Some, like me, are born with some musical talent and have to settle for being a mediocre player. I've been a mediocre player for many years, but I still like to play, usually every day... still hoping to improve. :) We all can't be an Earl Scruggs or a Bela Fleck, so just enjoy being able to get fairly proficient. I wish you success, even if it's being able to play only the simplest tunes (like "Cripple Creek").

banjoak - Posted - 06/07/2024:  14:51:05

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

So I have zero musical talent or understanding. I am tone deaf and so bad that I can’t tell you if something is out of tune or not. I can’t clap along to a beat and don’t understand time as in 3 or 4 and have no concept of what a key of D or E or whatever is. Strangely I have a math PhD and a strong background in computer science but no understanding of music at all. I have been trying brainjo for two weeks at clawhammer and have made zero progress at all. I’m really not sure how I should practice or start. I can barely bum diddy and have sort of just defaulted to trying that for 20 to 30 min at a time but I can’t hit individual strings to save my life.



My only other musical attempt was when I was about 7 my mother made me take a single unit of piano that was a disaster. I’m now 53. The only way I can tune the thing is with a tuner; I literally can’t tell if two strings are lower or higher than each other.



All total in my notebook (I take copious notes in a journal) I have had about 17 hours of practice over two weeks and I can’t even come close to staying in time with any song or metronome.





Is there a way to start that I’m somehow failing? I know it takes time but this feels like zero improvement over a lot of daily twice per day practice. When strikenth bottom string there is a 50:50 chance that I hit it.



Thanks for any advice.



Jsj

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17 hours is just not a lot of time.

Not exactly sure what eventual goal is, or expectations? But might help to separate different aspects, that then later come together.

The Physical - Learning to develop aim and fine muscle control of both left and right hand fingers. Which string(s) to hit (and what not to hit); can try various easy exercises on just that one aspect. As well should be experimenting with nuances of technique... how to shape hand, motion (slight change can make big difference) to get more accurate, smooth and eventually more automatic. Pretty normal that just takes a bit of time to experiment, develop get a "feel" for it.

The Musical  (harmonic and rhythmic) - I kind of question when folks state are actually tone deaf, literally can’t tell if two strings are lower or higher than each other;  and/or can't sense rhythm? If was the case, can't differentiate musical vs random noise; I wonder why folks would enjoy music, let alone try to play? Generally if enjoy music; they are probably better at hearing and subconscious understanding than they think (subjectively discriminate what sounds good or not). Often might be conflating that they don't yet some know terminology, language, identify differences, details, concepts, structure. This too can take some time to start to grasp and internalize how things musically work together; the what or why things sound way do, (good or not).

Start simple, build up. For beginners, can be bit of abstract overthinking, and/or trying to start with over-complicated. IMO, it really helps to initially parse, hierarchy... initially focus on simpler, solid fundamentals. I agree with Dan's suggestion of "Sing and dance", both serve for more internalizing concrete understanding (rather than just abstract instructions and concepts). Dancing helps with internalizing the feel of steady beat and rhythmic pattern and groove/flow. Singing helps listening and to imagine in your mind what it should sound like, using that as guide. For both pay attention to phrasing. Might start with simple songs already familiar with (can sing, hum or just imagine). 

Dale Diehl - Posted - 06/07/2024:  15:22:39

This made me laugh. I had worked at playing mostly on my own for nearly two years and could not play a lick in time with others. It took 6 months of lessons and a lot of work before I even started to get it. Even then, it was more than 5 years before I could tap my foot and play at the same time. Then one day it occurred to me that I could play better than I ever thought I would be able to and that I had passed up some people that I had really admired a few years back. All that to say, it doesn't happen over night. How bad do you want it? BTW, I was pushing 40 went I started my lessons. 68 and still not great, but if I get serious and put the time in, it doesn't sound too bad.

jsinjin - Posted - 06/07/2024:  15:42:20

I don’t mean to stir things up. I’m mostly frustrated because this is not bringing any joy at all. It’s hours and hours of banging away hoping to hit the bottom string without the other finger banging into it or missing it or hitting two.

I normally enjoy learning new things like a language or new math concept or a new sport. This reminds me of the way I felt with learning to snowboard vs ski. The skiing had its ups and downs but soon became fun. The snowboarding was falls for a full day with no progress. By the end of the second day I could tell it just wasn’t for me. I just can’t imagine more 30 minute sessions of just trying to hit the string.

I also do have huge trouble telling if the note for one string is higher or lower than the other. It’s really hard. I hum or try to hear it. I’ve broken a lot of strings going the wrong way trying to get it tuned with the tuner.

When I say I’m a beginner, I mean that I had one six week session of piano over 50 years ago that was a disaster. I rarely listen to music, always lecture notes and podcasts while driving. Saw John williams once at the ft worth bass hall conducting his music with the ft worth symphony.

My goals were really to be able to enjoy playing while camping. I know it sounds lazy to say I’ve practiced 17 hours. But I am nearly religious with time and effort in almost everything I do. I workout every mornjfn at 5 and review markets at that point on podcasts, when I track time with this I clear the schedule, take notes on what I am doing snd practice the full 30 minutes don’t nothing but the exercises. But unlike say a laplace transform or a new group theory analysis I feel like I can’t do anything but this motion that I can’t tell any difference from day to day. There hasn’t been any improvement in either timing or the motion.

Not trying to play a song. Just trying to hit the string 4 x in a row. I once tracked that for 64 tries and never hit it four times in a row. That was only at day 26 but there had been a lot of practice until then.

banjomobob - Posted - 06/07/2024:  16:16:28

If music brings you no joy, you might consider pursuing an alternative way of expressing your creativity.

reubenstump - Posted - 06/07/2024:  16:17:04

quote:

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Originally posted by jsinjin

But unlike say a laplace transform or a new group theory analysis I feel like I can’t do anything but this motion that I can’t tell any difference from day to day. There hasn’t been any improvement in either timing or the motion.



Not trying to play a song. Just trying to hit the string 4 x in a row. I once tracked that for 64 tries and never hit it four times in a row. That was only at day 26 but there had been a lot of practice until then.

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Playing music isn't like a mathematical proof, where you prove it once and then you're forever done with it (apart from possible corollaries).  The learning never stops.  And yes, getting started an be difficult.

No one goes straight from multiplication tables to differential geometry.  The same is true in music.

Don't beat yourself up or set unrealistic goals.

Patience.  Relax.   And stop trying to quantify progress (64 tries, etc.).

Edited by - reubenstump on 06/07/2024 16:18:57

Owen - Posted - 06/07/2024:  17:21:26

Well John, I figure you likely have a better handle on your aspirations, abilities and limitations than do various and sundry out-hangers.   [Truth be told, I have some doubts (?) about people who don't know me from Adam telling me what they know I can accomplish and what will work for me.]  

However, when they include the qualifier "eventually" they are generally right ... considering that eventually might be months, years, or even 50 or a hundred years hence.  

Btw, when you're, "... hoping to hit the bottom string without the other finger banging into it or missing it or hitting two." are you actually and actively looking at the motion/movement of your hand/finger?