David Ciaffardini - Posted - 06/06/2024:  04:46:26

FYI: regarding the question as to who owns the Mastertone trademark. It’s complicated and not straightforward.

Regitering a trademark with the United States Government , even if accepted and duly registered, does not guarantee that one has the legal right to use the trademark. There is no legal requirement to register a trademark. In other words, although you may register your trademark, another company may already be using that same trademark and have the exclusive legal right to that trademark, even though they have never registered it. It is up to the applicant, not the government, to determine whether or not the trademark is already being used by another company. And this can be problematic because as was already stated, there is no legal requirement to register a trademark. A registered trademark is no guarantee that the trademark is not already being legitimately used by another company. Companies hoping to register a particular trademark often spend tens of thousands of dollars or more researching to determine whether their particular trademark is already being used by a company offering products or services similar enough that the average consumer would be confused as to what company they are dealing with. 

So, bottom line is it can be very complicated and very expensive to litigate trademark issues. Hence, we now have two companies using the same trademark for similar products. The issue Of who has the legal right for that trademark may still be technically and legally up in the air and could lead to further legal wrangling in the days ahead. It could even be argued that the term "Mastertone" has become a generic term for a Banjo with a tone ring, implying that anyone could now use the term For their tone ring style Banjo. I personally don't think that the term has evolved into a generic term, but that would not necessarily stop a lawyer from claiming otherwise   

Edited by - David Ciaffardini on 06/06/2024 04:58:05

GaryHopkins - Posted - 06/06/2024:  07:50:45

This site says it's a Kulesh tonering....

thomannmusic.com/epiphone_earl...eluxe.htm

waystation - Posted - 06/06/2024:  08:00:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by GaryHopkins

I got an email from Gibson Garage with this little bit of info..... "Earl Scruggs Golden Deluxe and the master tone classic. Both have traditional one piece Flan style master tone tone rings"...... I'll be able to share so. E info tomorrow or Friday. I've got one arriving from Epiphone tomorrow. If it's junk, I'll send it back.

---

Wow! A gold-plated Mastertone for $1300, and they throw in a free dessert! I love flan.

waystation - Posted - 06/06/2024:  08:07:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by GaryHopkins

This site says it's a Kulesh tonering....



thomannmusic.com/epiphone_earl...eluxe.htm

---

The site also says the tailpiece is engraved and the binding is white/black/white. The pictures on the site clearly show neither is true.

I suspect Thomann Music sent an employee who knew nothing about Mastertones to do the ad copy, and he/she did a quick cut and paste of the description from the old Gibson site. Should have fact checked, my friend.

Are Kulesh rings still even being manufactured?

Edit: To their credit, it does appear from the picture that they used a reasonable replica of the correct Granada armrest engraving pattern.

Edited by - waystation on 06/06/2024 08:11:43

KCJones - Posted - 06/06/2024:  09:15:01

What's the over/under on how thin that gold plating is?

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 06/06/2024:  09:28:32

This seems to be a lot to do about nothing. This is notable only because the company is adding the term mastertone on a banjo neck. This is a company that had everyone's admiration for banjos and then disrespected, discontinued, and dropped banjos. They are bringing back a low level banjo via their 2nd tier company. We have builders like Hatfield, Sullivan, Huber, Neat, Krako, Yates and more that have studied, stayed true, and are producing high quality based on prewar Gibson Mastertones and they are doing now what Gibson did at their height.

Ken

Edited by - From Greylock to Bean Blossom on 06/06/2024 09:29:11

Emiel - Posted - 06/06/2024:  10:41:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

This seems to be a lot to do about nothing. This is notable only because the company is adding the term mastertone on a banjo neck. 

---

And using the Earl Scruggs name for one of the models…

KCJones - Posted - 06/06/2024:  12:47:02

The company that made Prewar Gibson Banjos no longer exists. The company that made so-called "Greg Rich Era" Gibson Banjos no longer exists.

Gibson, today, is a terrible company. They're anti-music and anti-consumer. They have done absolutely nothing to help banjo music and bluegrass in a very long time, and in fact some of their past legal actions have had a direct negative affect on the banjo industry. Why anyone feels any goodwill to them is a mystery to me. Why anyone thinks they're going to get this one right after getting so much wrong, it just defies logic. 



I know it hurts, but people just need to accept the truth. That era is over. Stop living your life looking in the rearview mirror.



Nobody cares, at all, about the Deering Vega banjos. Nobody pretends that they're some sort of a continuation of Vega, except for Deering of course.

I don't understand how people get duped by this marketing nonsense when it comes to Gibson banjos specifically.

Edited by - KCJones on 06/06/2024 12:50:58

chuckv97 - Posted - 06/06/2024:  13:00:48

Like bringing back the Dodge Charger….?  

Edited by - chuckv97 on 06/06/2024 13:03:14

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 06/06/2024:  13:44:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emiel

quote:

---

Originally posted by From Greylock to Bean Blossom

This seems to be a lot to do about nothing. This is notable only because the company is adding the term mastertone on a banjo neck. 

---

And using the Earl Scruggs name for one of the models…

---

Sadly, you are correct. That is done also. I don't think Earl would have put his name on this product. He put his name on banjo's of the quality that were made by Grich and Doug H. Quite a difference.

ken

David Ciaffardini - Posted - 06/06/2024:  13:56:00

It seems Gibson is not going to give up the Mastertone trademark without a fight. And despite any misgivings about the Gibson brand and recent history, if the company can produce a great sounding professional quality five string “ Mastertone style” tonering banjo that retails for Less than $1300, that will be significant and is definitely something worth talking about. Whether or not they can accomplish that seemingly unattainable goal is something that no one here yet knows, But I’m sure the folks at Gold Tone are not ignoring this development. In any case, I for one, will find it interesting to see how this story develops, even though I have all the banjos I need. Equally, or perhaps more significant for the Bluegrass community is whether The new line of Epiphone mandolins turn out to really be as high-quality at a reasonable cost as the promo material suggests. Of course, the promo material, seemingly written by AI or someone who does not know what they’re talking about, Is not a hopeful sign. Stay tuned!

Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/06/2024:  14:42:52

quot

---

Sadly, you are correct. That is done also. I don't think Earl would have put his name on this product. He put his name on banjo's of the quality that were made by Grich and Doug H. Quite a difference.

ken

---

Well . . . 

 

Tractor1 - Posted - 06/06/2024:  14:44:37

If David Harvey is still with Gibson--a bluegrass heart is still there--however-following suit to third world labor- is the only way to compete--when selling to the low income banjo lovers

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 06/06/2024:  15:34:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Murphy

quot

---

Sadly, you are correct. That is done also. I don't think Earl would have put his name on this product. He put his name on banjo's of the quality that were made by Grich and Doug H. Quite a difference.

ken

---

Well . . . 

---

Different times in life and different times in history. And the vega was better than this one.

Cap - Posted - 06/09/2024:  06:47:25

Another POS goes into production so what? The Scruggs Family must have signed a contract with Gibson to use the family name.

Cap - Posted - 06/09/2024:  07:12:15

Here is a video of the new instruments

epiphone.com/en-US/p/Banjo/Ear...-Sunburst

waystation - Posted - 06/09/2024:  08:40:38

Two piece veneer on the resonator. Just one of many cost-saving measures that let them sell a maple and gold banjo for $1300.

The discounting has already started, BTW. Thomann Music has it listed at $1222, although they say "available in several months".

David Ciaffardini - Posted - 06/09/2024:  11:59:23

It seems that most of the people commenting here are rooting for Epiphone to fail in this endeavor. Among other things, I wonder how the Scruggs family feels about that
I don’t know how Gibson and Epiphone relationship Is organized, but Epiphone has been making pretty fine guitars, nearly rivaling, Gibson quality, but at a fraction of the price. Is that a bad thing if this happens with Banjos and mandolins?
Will it harm The livelihood of all the fine Small shop craftspeople who currently make outstanding banjos?
Will it turn into some sort of epic grudge match between Epiphone Mastertone vs Goldtone Mastertone? Should anyone care one way or the other?
And we should forever take note that according to eyewitnesses Earl Scruggs’ remarkable banjo playing sounded like Earl Scruggs pretty much no matter what instrument he was playing.

HighLonesomeF5 - Posted - 06/09/2024:  12:43:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by David C

It seems that most of the people commenting here are rooting for Epiphone to fail in this endeavor. Among other things, I wonder how the Scruggs family feels about that

I don’t know how Gibson and Epiphone relationship Is organized, but Epiphone has been making pretty fine guitars, nearly rivaling, Gibson quality, but at a fraction of the price. Is that a bad thing if this happens with Banjos and mandolins?

Will it harm The livelihood of all the fine Small shop craftspeople who currently make outstanding banjos?

Will it turn into some sort of epic grudge match between Epiphone Mastertone vs Goldtone Mastertone? Should anyone care one way or the other?

And we should forever take note that according to eyewitnesses Earl Scruggs’ remarkable banjo playing sounded like Earl Scruggs pretty much no matter what instrument he was playing.

---

I'm not sure cheaply made Chinese banjos will solve problems or cause more.

ceemonster - Posted - 06/09/2024:  16:42:11

It's not wholly true that Gibson has done nothing for music or bluegrass in recent years. They are still making "some" superb acoustic and electric guitars, and the output of the mandolin shop headed by David Harvey is in the estimation of some cognoscenti the finest since the Loar era. Eye-watering price premium, certainly, no question. But there is some mojo being whipped up there in pockets.  It is banjos they've seemingly abandoned.



And some of the Deering Vega banjos are very fine as well.

Again--a price premium not everyone will wish to pay. But some of the models they are putting out under the Vega marque are really nice.

Edited by - ceemonster on 06/09/2024 16:49:05

ceemonster - Posted - 06/09/2024:  17:16:44

The blurb for the "Mastertone Classic," a mahogany rb-3-ish looking model, says 3-ply "mahogany" rim. Can that be accurate?

What is a "Laurel" fretboard?

And it doesn't mention a tone ring or tone hoop of any kind.



Weird.





epiphone.com/en-US/p/Ba...ssic-Banjo

Edited by - ceemonster on 06/09/2024 17:18:23

waystation - Posted - 06/09/2024:  18:23:13

wood-database.com/indian-laurel/



One comment in the database, dated one year ago:

Edited by - waystation on 06/09/2024 18:23:46

waystation - Posted - 06/09/2024:  19:01:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by David C

It seems that most of the people commenting here are rooting for Epiphone to fail in this endeavor. Among other things, I wonder how the Scruggs family feels about that

I don’t know how Gibson and Epiphone relationship Is organized, but Epiphone has been making pretty fine guitars, nearly rivaling, Gibson quality, but at a fraction of the price. Is that a bad thing if this happens with Banjos and mandolins?

And we should forever take note that according to eyewitnesses Earl Scruggs’ remarkable banjo playing sounded like Earl Scruggs pretty much no matter what instrument he was playing.

---

I don't think most of us on this thread are hoping for failure.

Banjos are expensive. Over the past 10-20 years there have been a series of banjos, mostly Asian, whose prices have undercut the floor of what a decent player would consider an acceptable, playable, good-sounding Mastertone-style banjo. Chinese Gold Star in the oughts, followed by Recording King, and now Gold Tone have all slid in at the bottom of the Mastertone market as their predecessors inflated their way into higher price ranges. This has always been a good thing, since it puts good instruments within the price range of casual buyers and near-beginners who would otherwise settle for a mediocre instrument, get disappointed, stop playing, and be lost to our community. If these Epiphones turn out to be that, I, as a banjo teacher, would be thrilled. I think most banjo players would be happy to see the floor drop once again on the price of decent quality banjos.

My impression, from looking at the pictures and spec sheets of these banjos, is that these Epiphones are not that. There are many visual cues that remind me of the low-quality banjos that have been churned out for years by companies like Samick and sold under multiple brand names. It's not a sure thing, but here's what I see:

1. Small purfling rings on the mahogany resonators. This is a hallmark of low-end Asian banjo resonators. If Epi were truly making a "replica", how hard would it be to adjust the routers to cut larger circles? This is a sign that they either didn't care, didn't do their research, or decided it was more important to save a few bucks by sourcing a part that was already in production.

2. Two-piece book-matched maple on the Golden Deluxe. Again, a common feature of low-end mass-produced resonators. I imagine they're saving a bundle using smaller pieces of maple, which according to the catalog picture isn't particularly curly if it's curly at all.

3. Price-style tailpiece. Correct me if I'm wrong, but of the three most common tailpiece designs, the clamshell and Presto both still require royalty payments to use. The Price style is public domain. Another opportunity to save a buck, even though it makes the banjo look completely different. Oh, and how many Gibson Granadas or Golden Deluxes came with unengraved tailpieces? Right, none, according to the catalog. Epi gets points for using something like the correct engraving pattern on the armrest of the Golden Deluxe. It probably did cost them something to get that custom pattern done. But then they lose those points right away, thanks to the unengraved tailpiece.

4. Stamped "engraved" armrest on the Classic. This is another stock part that shows up on almost every cheap Asian banjo. Did any nickel-plated Gibson banjo ever come with an engraved armrest? It might have been cheaper to use a plain one, but probably not much, and the visual bling might sell an extra unit or two.

5. This one is a guess, but I suspect the gold plating is more of a gold wash, as is also typical of generic PacRim banjos. Polish your Golden Deluxe, and discover you now own a Classic.

I'm projecting my own feelings here, but I suspect people who handle lots of modern banjos look at these pictures and have the same reaction I do. These are Pacific Rim banjos with generic parts, gussied up with a name that has some small amount of cachet and a strong hint that the buyer should look at the Gibson reputation hiding behind the curtain. And, the big guns - it's a Mastertone! And they're paying Earl Scruggs for the use of his name!

Having set up lots of banjos in this class, and having watched (and taught) lots of students who struggle with what they thought was a prize when they paid a not-insignificant amount of money, I see disappointment ahead.

I hope I'm wrong, I really do. But I've seen many variations on this movie before.

And just because Earl could make any banjo sound great - and I've seen him do just that - doesn't mean that putting his name on the headstock will have the same effect. But Epiphone is literally banking on making people believe that it will.

Edited by - waystation on 06/09/2024 19:03:10

ceemonster - Posted - 06/09/2024:  19:18:38

I'm wondering if the mahogany "Mastertone Classic" really is a "Woody" with no tone ring as suggested by the spec list. If the 3-ply rim really is mahogany as per the description that would be too bad. Would explain why it sounds so quiet in the sample video. A Woody bg resonator banjo needs a hardrock 3-ply maple rim, like that fabulous RK-R25 Madison whipped up in the Grich laboratory.



If it's really a mahogany-rim Woody, perhaps one could put a skin or Ren head on it and it could be a nice old time banjo.  

I don't think the maple "ES" one with the tone ring sounds bad at all.  Some of the details look tacky but it doesn't sound bad.

Edited by - ceemonster on 06/09/2024 19:30:01

waystation - Posted - 06/09/2024:  20:01:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by ceemonster

I'm wondering if the mahogany "Mastertone Classic" really is a "Woody" with no tone ring as suggested by the spec list. If the 3-ply rim really is mahogany as per the description that would be too bad. Would explain why it sounds so quiet in the sample video. A Woody bg resonator banjo needs a hardrock 3-ply maple rim, like that fabulous RK-R25 Madison whipped up in the Grich laboratory.



If it's really a mahogany-rim Woody, perhaps one could put a skin or Ren head on it and it could be a nice old time banjo.  

I don't think the maple "ES" one with the tone ring sounds bad at all.  Some of the details look tacky but it doesn't sound bad.

---

The side view of the Mastertone Classic on the Epiphone site clearly shows a tone ring. It's interesting that it isn't mentioned in the description.

With a product this new, it's very possible that either the pictures or the description reflect an earlier prototype with different specs than the production model. We'll just have to wait for a correction or for someone to actually get the instrument in hand.

waystation - Posted - 06/09/2024:  20:33:16

amazon.com/Gosila-String-begin...BV8VD8NG/

Here's a sub-$300 tone ring banjo available on Amazon. Compare to the Epiphone Mastertone Classic. Note the identical armrest "engraving" pattern and what looks like the same flange casting and plating. This one took a slightly different parts assortment from the bin, including a different non-proprietary tailpiece, and the resonator looks like the same two-piece book-matched maple resonator as the ES Golden Deluxe, minimally figured and with a lighter color finish.

If "Gosila" can sell this banjo for $289, why pay Epiphone $999 for almost exactly the same instrument? In a word, marketing.

ceemonster - Posted - 06/09/2024:  21:46:56

I now see the Epiphone site also doesn't mention a tone ring in the specs for the maple ES model. Well, that makes a very poor impression. It's bad enough for a dealer like Thomman to be clueless about an item they are selling. But for the actual company to be a fountain of misinformation about their own product sends a very disturbing and negative message.

If this is truly a "Gosila" equivalent product at these prices that would be disgraceful.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/09/2024:  23:20:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by David C

FYI: regarding the question as to who owns the Mastertone trademark. It’s complicated and not straightforward.

Regitering a trademark with the United States Government , even if accepted and duly registered, does not guarantee that one has the legal right to use the trademark.

---

It's not complicated and it is straightforward.

Gold Tone, seeing that Gibson never claimed ownership of the Mastertone name and hadn't shipped a Mastertone banjo since 2009 or 2010, filed a claim for federal trademark registration, which was granted. One benefit of federal registration is that it carries a presumption of ownership. It provides significant protections and rights in actions against infringement. Gold Tone's ownership of the Mastertone trademark, confirmed by its federal registration, does in fact give Gold Tone the right to use the trademark for the purposes claimed in its application.

We know from the public record that Gibson intervened in Gold Tone's filing and that after a non-public process that lasted several months and included one or two extensions, Gibson withdrew its challenge. It's speculated elsewhere in this discussion that Gibson's use of Mastertone on these new Epiphone banjos may be evidence of an agreement reached between Gold Tone and Gibson. I don't think so. I think Gibson is just doing this, waiting for Gold Tone to sue so Gibson can push a claim of common law trademark based on its prior use over a period of about 80 years and it's resumption of use following a 14-year interruption.

I should note I have never accurately predicted a corporate fight such as this and I don't see any reason that I should become a successful prognosticator now.

Since a violin company in Maryland not far from where I live also owns a trademark on Mastertone, I believe Gold Tone and this company must have come to some agreement for Gold Tone's registration to proceed. My *guess* would be Gold Tone promised not to make violins, violas, cellos or other instruments of the viol family and Potter Violins agreed not to make banjos, mandolins, guitars or the other instruments Gold Tone intended to label Mastertone.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 06/10/2024:  00:06:24

quote:

---

Originally posted by waystation

amazon.com/Gosila-String-begin...BV8VD8NG/

Here's a sub-$300 tone ring banjo available on Amazon. Compare to the Epiphone Mastertone Classic. Note the identical armrest "engraving" pattern and what looks like the same flange casting and plating. This one took a slightly different parts assortment from the bin, including a different non-proprietary tailpiece, and the resonator looks like the same two-piece book-matched maple resonator as the ES Golden Deluxe, minimally figured and with a lighter color finish.

If "Gosila" can sell this banjo for $289, why pay Epiphone $999 for almost exactly the same instrument? In a word, marketing.

---

You'd be better aking why Ibanez sell the B200 for $549 or why Gewa (from Germany) sell their Premium 5 string for a similar amount because these are the same banjo. And these are well known low low quality and they cerainly don't have three ply rims. Some parts are failry ubiquitous on Asain made banjos. Until someone has one and takes it apart then it's not really fair to make comparisons with the cheapest that can be found.

David Ciaffardini - Posted - 06/10/2024:  06:48:43

To anyone who claims that the issue of who has the right to use a particular trademark, including Mastertone, “Is NOT complicated and is straightforward”. I disagree. Read the following and you can decide for yourself. Be sure to read the part where it says what registering a trademark “does not do”. (Hint: Federal registration does not guarantee ownership/exclusive right to use a particular trademark.)

The very fact that we have two competing companies utilizing the same presumably registered trademark for similar category products supports the idea that trademark ownership is in fact complex. Many trademark fights involve teams of lawyers and years in the courts. I don't call that "straightforward."

 

I would not have confidence in any lawyer who tells me that going to court to defend a 100-year-old trademark now being used by two competing companies is "not complicated and is straightforward."

I do look forward to seeing how this plays out between Gibson/Epiphone and Goldtone.  



uspto.gov/sites/default/files/...cts_1.pdf

Edited by - David Ciaffardini on 06/10/2024 07:09:15

GaryHopkins - Posted - 06/10/2024:  11:20:17

I ordered one of these banjos, and it came in last Saturday. I'm sending it back. Once refund is in hand I will fill you all in on what I found and why I send it back

GaryHopkins - Posted - 06/10/2024:  14:27:41

Edited by - GaryHopkins on 06/10/2024 14:29:34

cwatt22 - Posted - 06/10/2024:  15:10:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by GaryHopkins

I ordered one of these banjos, and it came in last Saturday. I'm sending it back. Once refund is in hand I will fill you all in on what I found and why I send it back

---

That's unfortunate, I was hoping Epiphone wouldn't shoot themselves in the foot with this release. Interested to read what was wrong with it.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 06/10/2024:  17:25:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by David C

To anyone who claims that the issue of who has the right to use a particular trademark, including Mastertone, “Is NOT complicated and is straightforward”. I disagree. Read the following and you can decide for yourself. Be sure to read the part where it says what registering a trademark “does not do”. (Hint: Federal registration does not guarantee ownership/exclusive right to use a particular trademark.)

The very fact that we have two competing companies utilizing the same presumably registered trademark for similar category products supports the idea that trademark ownership is in fact complex. Many trademark fights involve teams of lawyers and years in the courts. I don't call that "straightforward."

 

I would not have confidence in any lawyer who tells me that going to court to defend a 100-year-old trademark now being used by two competing companies is "not complicated and is straightforward."

I do look forward to seeing how this plays out between Gibson/Epiphone and Goldtone.  



uspto.gov/sites/default/files/...cts_1.pdf

 

---

David,

Good post. I especially appreciate your last 3 paragraphs showing the complexity of the issue.

The people who see it as being "not complicated and straightforward" (and I would have naively said that also), are banjo folks who know the history, meaning, and implications developed over 70 + years of that trademark being in the eyes, hands and vernacular. These people also count on common sense, respect, and integrity- which might put them out of the running in this discussion.

Ken

waystation - Posted - 06/10/2024:  17:57:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrahamHawker

quote:

---

Originally posted by waystation

amazon.com/Gosila-String-begin...BV8VD8NG/

Here's a sub-$300 tone ring banjo available on Amazon. Compare to the Epiphone Mastertone Classic. Note the identical armrest "engraving" pattern and what looks like the same flange casting and plating. This one took a slightly different parts assortment from the bin, including a different non-proprietary tailpiece, and the resonator looks like the same two-piece book-matched maple resonator as the ES Golden Deluxe, minimally figured and with a lighter color finish.

If "Gosila" can sell this banjo for $289, why pay Epiphone $999 for almost exactly the same instrument? In a word, marketing.

---

You'd be better asking why Ibanez sell the B200 for $549 or why Gewa (from Germany) sell their Premium 5 string for a similar amount because these are the same banjo. And these are well known low low quality and they cerainly don't have three ply rims. Some parts are fairly ubiquitous on Asian made banjos. Until someone has one and takes it apart then it's not really fair to make comparisons with the cheapest that can be found.

---

I'm with you, and I hope to find out that Epiphone did right by the Mastertone, Earl Scruggs and Golden Deluxe trademarks. We've seen what the catalogs show, now it's time for the instruments to make the case for themselves. Can't wait to see comments from people who have had them in hand, and I'm personally hoping they are killer instruments. The world can always use more affordable, decent quality banjos.

Edited by - waystation on 06/10/2024 17:59:02

rockyjo - Posted - 06/10/2024:  18:09:40

Well.. a close look at a photo of the banjo shows a thumb screw which is gold, and has a phillips head..  uh.. yup, any of you inclined to take a phillips screwdriver to a thumbscrew..a gold plated thumbscrew?

I would like to like this banjo, it looks beautiful..

Rockyjo

250gibson - Posted - 06/10/2024:  18:14:32

Gibson has a couple of different factories produce their Epiphone branded instruments. The Epiphone elite guitars are built in the Terada factory in Japan, and are light years ahead of the standard epihones in terms of fit, finish, playability and sound. Standard epiphones are built in Korea/China/Indonesia and are either bad or really bad.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/11/2024:  01:14:51

Gibson withdrew its challenge to the Gold Tone trademark registration. No one in this discussion knows why.

I believe it would be very difficult for Gibson to successfully challenge Gold Tone's ownership of Mastertone at this point. I'm not an IP attorney so I won't say impossible.

I am also not totally ignorant about trademarks. Some of my work in my advertising and marketing career included contributing to branding guidelines and trademark usage and protection guides.

I'm not going to plow through David's document dump to find the one specific point he could have quoted that supports his contention that Good Tone's ownership of the mark conveys no rights. Instead I'll quote the one point I already made about trademarks and provide the link where it came from.

From USPTO on what registration gives you:  "Legal presumption that you own the trademark and have the right to use it. So, in federal court, your registration certificate proves ownership, eliminating the need for copious amounts of evidence."

Here: uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/wh...trademark

KCJones - Posted - 06/11/2024:  08:51:57

Honestly, who cares about IP law? Seriously, why does it matter to anyone at all? What does it have to do with the actual banjo?

phb - Posted - 06/11/2024:  09:19:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

Honestly, who cares about IP law?

---

I do, I make my living from it! 

waystation - Posted - 06/11/2024:  09:28:32

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

Honestly, who cares about IP law? Seriously, why does it matter to anyone at all? What does it have to do with the actual banjo?

---

I think much of the legal back-and-forth on this thread will disappear once someone has a real instrument to comment on.

KCJones - Posted - 06/11/2024:  09:29:12

Which probably explains why you haven't given much input, there's nothing more annoying for a knowledgeable professional than trying to reason with an ignorant layman.

Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/11/2024:  09:32:05

quote:

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Originally posted by KCJones

Honestly, who cares about IP law? Seriously, why does it matter to anyone at all? What does it have to do with the actual banjo?

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This made me chuckle.  This entire conversation so far has like one opinion as to the sound but vigorous debate on the possible legal ramifications on what appears on the 20th-something fret block.  It is somewhat of a microcosm of the banjo market these days.

KCJones - Posted - 06/11/2024:  09:53:00

A microcosm of BHO, perhaps. Not of the banjo world as a whole.



These issues don't exist on other banjo forums and social media pages throughout the internet. Only here. I won't say why otherwise my post will be deleted. 

Edited by - KCJones on 06/11/2024 09:53:24

Owen - Posted - 06/11/2024:  10:12:49

I suppose it's both thread drift and as irrelevant as it gets, but w.r.t. "...knowledgeable professional [...] trying to reason with an ignorant layman." I've seen plenty of t'other way 'round.   [ ...and yes, as a layman with some common sense, and "living" the process/event, it can be mucho exasperating.   ]

KCJones - Posted - 06/11/2024:  11:43:18

quote:

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Originally posted by GaryHopkins

I ordered one of these banjos, and it came in last Saturday. I'm sending it back. Once refund is in hand I will fill you all in on what I found and why I send it back

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Just want to quote this post to try to keep discussion about the banjo itself on track, since we're not allowed to have more than one thread on this topic and the IP law discussion keeps getting in the way. 

ceemonster - Posted - 06/11/2024:  12:31:03

The thickets of the IP discussion aren't particularly interesting to me, but Gibson banjo-related IP drama most definitely is and has been a part of just about every discussion on this site about banjo products issued using Gibson features, including but not limited to the dramas over the Mastertone marque.



I don't think it's at all been stated that BH is "not allowed to have more than one thread on this topic." There were double threads started about the new banjo, and the mods cleaned that up.  But I don't see why a separate one about the IP ramifications would be disallowed, and it's actually a good idea.



But if for some reason it was disallowed, the highways and byways of the IP situation with Gibson banjos are hardly off the runway for this topic. Epiphone is a Gibson subsidiary, they are putting out new banjo models using a marque supposedly now belonging to Gold Tone . . . yes, it's related.   

Plus, there's not much else to talk about beyond sheer speculation until some knowledgeable folks get their hands on these products and are able to seriously examine them and transmit some solid intel.

Edited by - ceemonster on 06/11/2024 12:37:46

chuckv97 - Posted - 06/11/2024:  12:54:10

Other than the IP issue,, what do you folks actually expect from a cheaply made Indonesian or wherever banjo? I don’t think - speculating- they’ll match up to Recording King or Gold Tone. I tried their Epiphone Inspired by Gibson J45 and wasn’t that impressed, although at $995 CDN it was fine.

waystation - Posted - 06/11/2024:  12:59:20

quote:

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Originally posted by ceemonster

Plus, there's not much else to talk about beyond sheer speculation until some knowledgeable folks get their hands on these products and are able to seriously examine them and transmit some solid intel.

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I was just about to post the gist of your last paragraph. The is-it-or-isn't-it-deserving-of-the-20th-fret-inlay argument will continue, evidence-free, until there's actually something to play and hear. 

In the meantime, it's interesting for at least some of us to hear about the trademark issues that may affect the marketability of many banjos in the future, particularly if legal action causes the government to put "Mastertone" in the public domain. 

So, send us sound samples, pictures and descriptions of build quality as soon as you can, but for now, if there's nothing of substance to talk about, I'm happy to hang out and learn a bit about copyright law.