Brian Murphy - Posted - 05/28/2024:  13:34:13

Thought that would get your attention. But unless GRich is completely pranking us (and that is so hard to believe), there are some images he posted of new models Gibson is supposedly working on, including an Earl Scruggs model to be issued through Epiphone. Looks like a 3 and a bowtie in the works as well. They will probably not use "Mastertone" anymore, but I think Epiphone used "Masterbuilt" or something like that. Anyway, take a look:

Edited by - Brian Murphy on 05/28/2024 13:35:15

 

Emiel - Posted - 05/28/2024:  13:42:24

Where was this posted?

Brian Murphy - Posted - 05/28/2024:  13:58:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emiel

Where was this posted?

---

Facebook

Emiel - Posted - 05/28/2024:  14:00:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Murphy

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emiel

Where was this posted?

---

Facebook

---

Thanks, I'll have a look…

DRL777 - Posted - 05/28/2024:  14:03:47

Fakebook?

Culloden - Posted - 05/28/2024:  17:59:14

Just remember, everything you read on Facebook is entirely true. As long as it's on the Internet you can take it for Gospel.
Now, back to reality. The straight pull tailpieces look like Gold Tone equipment. Could someone have photoshopped the pictures? I don't see Epiphone producing banjos with that style tailpiece, no matter what the advantages are.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/28/2024:  18:29:28

Gold Tone knocked off the Price patent tailpiece. They got caught and were forced to "license" it. That patent has expired and one may procure these from any Chinese vendor for barely any money. At one time they were on Aliexpress for just a few bucks shipped.

Emiel - Posted - 05/28/2024:  23:00:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by Culloden

Just remember, everything you read on Facebook is entirely true. As long as it's on the Internet you can take it for Gospel.

 

---

This was posted on Facebook by Greg Rich himself…  saying it is real. And confirming that the block contains the word "Mastertone".

Edited by - Emiel on 05/28/2024 23:03:59

GrahamHawker - Posted - 05/29/2024:  03:09:26

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emiel

And confirming that the block contains the word "Mastertone".

---

A trademark owned by Goldtone apparently.

Emiel - Posted - 05/29/2024:  09:02:59

Meanwhile on Facebook, Greg Rich wants to know: Who in the Scruggs family approved this Epiphone Scruggs model ?

monstertone - Posted - 05/29/2024:  09:10:19

Caveat Emptor

Brian Murphy - Posted - 05/29/2024:  10:05:17

Why the suspicion? Epiphone makes good guitars, and their current quality is now well-respected by the guitar gurus on YouTube that I watch. They have really upped their game from the '80s and '90s when they made garbage. Saga proved that banjos can be well made overseas (Japan). I have great respect for GRich for showing that the Chinese can make good banjos. GoldTone also has shown that. When GRich had banjos in China, even diehard made-in-the-USA Gibson devotees praised them (and for good reason). But some of these same folks reflexively dismiss GoldTone unjustly and now are bashing Gibson when all we have seen are concept drawings. C'mon folks. There is no reason (yet) to believe that the new Epiphones will be anything other than another good entrant in the market. At least wait to play one, assuming they are made.

grich - Posted - 05/29/2024:  11:15:57

These photos came from a very reliable source and have been confirmed by a few other inside sources. Just wait until I tell you the next piece of information.
Just need a confirmation before I post it

Brian Murphy - Posted - 05/31/2024:  13:00:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by grich

These photos came from a very reliable source and have been confirmed by a few other inside sources. Just wait until I tell you the next piece of information.

Just need a confirmation before I post it

---

 

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/31/2024:  13:25:18

Obviously there was some sort of agreement made that got Gibson Inc to withdraw their opposition in 2021. Perhaps they agreed to both use the name "Mastertone"?

grich - Posted - 05/31/2024:  13:50:18

A Gibson retailer who deals with a lot of Epiphone product told me the new banjo line will debut in june.
He also said the new line will have the Mastertone block which I just don't understand if Goldtone claims they have it trademarked.

The Old Timer - Posted - 05/31/2024:  18:34:48

Fire up the popcorn machine!

Emiel - Posted - 06/01/2024:  00:24:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by grich

A Gibson retailer who deals with a lot of Epiphone product told me the new banjo line will debut in june.

He also said the new line will have the Mastertone block which I just don't understand if Goldtone claims they have it trademarked.

---

Trademark search USPTO shows Gold Tone as the owner of the Mastertone trademark. Also the Potter Violin Co. owns it. Gibson is not mentioned.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 06/01/2024:  05:31:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emiel

quote:

---

Originally posted by grich

A Gibson retailer who deals with a lot of Epiphone product told me the new banjo line will debut in june.

He also said the new line will have the Mastertone block which I just don't understand if Goldtone claims they have it trademarked.

---

Trademark search USPTO shows Gold Tone as the owner of the Mastertone trademark. Also the Potter Violin Co. owns it. Gibson is not mentioned.

---

You have to read the documents.  Gibson opposed the trademark.  Lots of back and forth, then some sort of agreement was made off record and Gibson withdrew their opposition.

grich - Posted - 06/02/2024:  06:58:20

Here you !

debug-6.epiphone.com/en-US/p/B...-Sunburst

lazyarcher - Posted - 06/02/2024:  07:37:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by grich

Here you !



debug-6.epiphone.com/en-US/p/B...-Sunburst

---

Here's a description of the banjo from the Epiphone web site...

"The Epiphone Earl Scruggs Golden Deluxe Banjo features a 3-ply maple resonator with figured maple veneer, 3-ply maple rim, and gold hardware, including a gold plated armrest with Earl Scruggs-inspired engraving, and a 20 hole gold plated custom engraved Greg Rich flathead tonering."

Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/02/2024:  08:03:02

quote:

---

---

Here's a description of the banjo from the Epiphone web site...

"The Epiphone Earl Scruggs Golden Deluxe Banjo features a 3-ply maple resonator with figured maple veneer, 3-ply maple rim, and gold hardware, including a gold plated armrest with Earl Scruggs-inspired engraving, and a 20 hole gold plated custom engraved Greg Rich flathead tonering."

---

??? I don't see a reference to Grich.  It reads (at least now), "including a gold plated armrest with Earl Scruggs-inspired engraving."  The phrase you include about "Greg Rich flathead tonering" is not there.  Banjo nerd conspiracy theorists (including me) are going to go bonkers over this.

debug-6.epiphone.com/en-US/p/B...-Sunburst



But it does plainly state "Mastertone" so some kind of deal might have been struck.  We now have two different makers producing Mastertone banjos.  Is Grich really Wayne Rogers?  Has anyone ever seen them together?   Mind blown.

Edited by - Brian Murphy on 06/02/2024 08:06:01

GrahamHawker - Posted - 06/02/2024:  08:51:54

This is only a preview website so details are going to changing. However there is also a brass hoop open back model:



debug-6.epiphone.com/en-GB/p/B...o/Natural

There's also a Mastertone Classic

debug-6.epiphone.com/en-GB/p/B...o/Natural

Edited by - GrahamHawker on 06/02/2024 09:01:32

Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/02/2024:  10:17:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrahamHawker

This is only a preview website so details are going to changing. However there is also a brass hoop open back model:



debug-6.epiphone.com/en-GB/p/B...o/Natural

There's also a Mastertone Classic

debug-6.epiphone.com/en-GB/p/B...o/Natural

---

So the Classic is a 250 with a rosewood board or a 3 with fiddle cut peghead.  The Openback is sorta like the RB-170s but with bow ties.



It will be interesting to try these, but I like the concepts and the price points seem right.  They are also coming out with an all solid wood F style mandolin for $600 with gig bag.   Gibson ain't playing around here.  They're coming at RK and Eastman.  debug-6.epiphone.com/en-US/p/M...rst-Satin

Edited by - Brian Murphy on 06/02/2024 10:24:22

Emiel - Posted - 06/02/2024:  10:29:45

The openback model is also a "Mastertone" model, though being openback and with only a brass hoop tonering (or no tonering at all?).

lazyarcher - Posted - 06/02/2024:  10:32:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Murphy

quote:

---

---

Here's a description of the banjo from the Epiphone web site...

"The Epiphone Earl Scruggs Golden Deluxe Banjo features a 3-ply maple resonator with figured maple veneer, 3-ply maple rim, and gold hardware, including a gold plated armrest with Earl Scruggs-inspired engraving, and a 20 hole gold plated custom engraved Greg Rich flathead tonering."

---

??? I don't see a reference to Grich.  It reads (at least now), "including a gold plated armrest with Earl Scruggs-inspired engraving."  The phrase you include about "Greg Rich flathead tonering" is not there.  Banjo nerd conspiracy theorists (including me) are going to go bonkers over this.

debug-6.epiphone.com/en-US/p/B...-Sunburst



But it does plainly state "Mastertone" so some kind of deal might have been struck.  We now have two different makers producing Mastertone banjos.  Is Grich really Wayne Rogers?  Has anyone ever seen them together?   Mind blown.

---

I was teasing Greg..and stirring the nerd conspiracy community. Greg has already called me this morning and theres a contract out on me..

grich - Posted - 06/02/2024:  10:47:55

I just heard that some of the big Epiphone retailers have them in stock.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 06/02/2024:  11:12:40

I wonder who is going to make these. Will the Epiphone guitar factory in China get tooled up for banjo production? Epiphone banjos have been ordered in from other factories. The last decent Epiphone was made by Samick and I'm not sure it they used Dae Won for a while. It's not as if there are many other facilities producing high quality banjos in China besides Recording King and Saga. The only brass flathead tone ring with 3 ply rim that still seems to be in production is made for German company Ortega and I don't know where those are made. No company took on the production of better quality Dae Won banjos and they disappeared from the distributors in the UK.

Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/02/2024:  19:27:22

 

---

I was teasing Greg..and stirring the nerd conspiracy community. Greg has already called me this morning and theres a contract out on me..

---

That was a good one.  You got me going :-) 

KCJones - Posted - 06/03/2024:  07:40:43

Gibson and Epiphone are just titles on corporate paperwork. Same with the Mastertone label, it's just a label on some paperwork. There is no connection whatsoever between the Gibson company of old and Gibson company today, and there's no connection between the old "mastertone" product line and the new mastertones you see today.

Unless Epiphone brings something new to the table, or can significantly undercut the competition, I just don't understand what differentiates them from an RK, Goldstar, or Gold Tone. Is it just nostalgia? I wish someone could explain it to me.

Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/03/2024:  08:53:21

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

Gibson and Epiphone are just titles on corporate paperwork. Same with the Mastertone label, it's just a label on some paperwork. There is no connection whatsoever between the Gibson company of old and Gibson company today, and there's no connection between the old "mastertone" product line and the new mastertones you see today.



Unless Epiphone brings something new to the table, or can significantly undercut the competition, I just don't understand what differentiates them from an RK, Goldstar, or Gold Tone. Is it just nostalgia? I wish someone could explain it to me.

---

Well said.  Each banjo should be evaluated by its sound and craftsmanship.  Names should be irrelevant, but reputation is a good way to choose.   (I have recommended RK to many people looking for a keeper banjo on a budget).  But that is not the world in which we live.  I am not sure if they have to "significantly undercut" the others in terms of quality.  That is what worries me.  Name recognition counts big for people who are not familiar with banjo brands.  (Casual or beginners might know Epiphone and sales people will tell them it's Gibson).  Remember that Epiphone as a guitar brand is now much better respected than it was 20-40 years ago.  And the game for imports is distribution.  Gibson/Epiphone will have Sweetwater and Musician's Friend/Guitar Center.  For that end of the market, that also could be a big factor in who gets share.  For every Epiphone sold, it may be one less RK or GoldTone sold. 



So I hope it is a situation where quality reigns supreme.  And you are right that badges should be irrelevant.  But then again, I am not sure.

Edited by - Brian Murphy on 06/03/2024 08:54:01

waystation - Posted - 06/03/2024:  19:30:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrahamHawker

It's not as if there are many other facilities producing high quality banjos in China besides Recording King and Saga.

---

Who builds Gold Tone banjos?

reubenstump - Posted - 06/04/2024:  04:28:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by waystation

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrahamHawker

It's not as if there are many other facilities producing high quality banjos in China besides Recording King and Saga.

---

Who builds Gold Tone banjos?

---

Midas? 

chuckv97 - Posted - 06/04/2024:  11:40:05

Here’s more…

apparently Jamie Scruggs , Gary's son, signed off to allow Earl's name to be used.

youtu.be/XWmRwL9onKY?si=asPQTnxw-NClhUiZ

Edited by - chuckv97 on 06/04/2024 11:41:52

Tractor1 - Posted - 06/04/2024:  12:51:10

thanks chuck

they all sound good --which I was wondering about--The open back has some fullness I was not expecting

whoever runs Epiphone made a smart business mood

brian and KC are right --but yes Epiphone has been known as a poor mans gibson and  the beatles  had no problem with them-

Question can these new breed of great imports  be hot rodded with different tone rings  and other banjo parts ---Are their rims, flanges etc the same size as Pruchas and Stew -Macs

Edited by - Tractor1 on 06/04/2024 13:02:19

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 06/05/2024:  07:26:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

 

brian and KC are right --but yes Epiphone has been known as a poor mans gibson and  the beatles  had no problem with them-

 

---

When Gibson bought Epiphone in the  1950s, they maintained it as a separate American-made brand. I believe that was still the case when the Beatles bought their Epiphone Casinos. It was, IIRC, only later (after Gibson changed ownership in 1969?) that Epiphone was converted to an offshore budget line.

waystation - Posted - 06/05/2024:  08:41:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

Here’s more…

apparently Jamie Scruggs , Gary's son, signed off to allow Earl's name to be used.

youtu.be/XWmRwL9onKY?si=asPQTnxw-NClhUiZ

---

Sorry to be the skeptic here, but $1299 for a gold-plated banjo with the implication that it is on par with prior Gibson Mastertones?

I understand that labor is much cheaper in China than in the US, and there are probably environmental rules that Epiphone doesn't have to follow at their factories. But RK and GT manufacture under the same rules and their entry level banjos, nickel plated, mahogany and with basic inlays, are still just a tad under $2k.

Add to that the departures in design from classic old Mastertones - purfling rings in the resonator are too small (and Gibsons of that era didn't have them at all). Three screws in the truss rod cover. The inlays are slightly different. And given the armrest engraving is described as "Earl Scruggs-inspired", I'm guessing it doesn't look much like Granada engraving.

I'm happy with my current banjo collection, which includes a prewar Style 6, a Rich-era Granada, a Nechville, a modern Kel Kroyden, and a GT Twanger. So I'm not in the market. But if I were, I'd be asking myself, why is this banjo so inexpensive compared to the competition?

KCJones - Posted - 06/05/2024:  09:15:49

Seems like it's just an MB-250 with new aesthetics.

The entire thing is an exercise in marketing. If it had a good tone ring in it, or any other good components, they'd say so. The hardware looks exactly like the hardware on all the other rebadged PacRim imports, that armrest engraving is a dead giveaway. The tone isn't impressive, if the video is anything to go by.

You can probably find this same banjo under a different label for about $300 on Amazon.

KCJones - Posted - 06/05/2024:  09:37:39

Here's a version for only $300, if you don't mind losing the label:

amazon.com/Gosila-String-begin...BV8VD8NG/

Here's a version for a bit more, since it's an "Ibanez":

amazon.com/Ibanez-B200-5-Strin...WS28A03W8


Notice the armrest? It's the exact same thing, likely from the same factory.

Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/05/2024:  10:46:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by KCJones

Here's a version for only $300, if you don't mind losing the label:



amazon.com/Gosila-String-begin...BV8VD8NG/



Here's a version for a bit more, since it's an "Ibanez":



amazon.com/Ibanez-B200-5-Strin...WS28A03W8





Notice the armrest? It's the exact same thing, likely from the same factory.

---

I agree the engraving pattern is the same, but I do see differences.  The flange looks different, obviously tailpiece is different, and the fit and finish just look better on the Epiphones.   I do  appreciate that you actually gave and opinion about the tone.  To me, that is the biggest thing.  I think they made it sound good on the video, but I would not compare it favorably to the RK, which has always sort of been the benchmark to me.  If you're going to beat the RK, do it on tone or price.  I have heard GoldTone Twanger levels that can rival the RK, but nothing else so far at that price point.   I would never want gold at this price point and it's a waste of money, but I'm not the target buyer.  Gibson has distribution, and its target market here will buy on looks.  The other concern I would have now is about latent quality issues.  We have years of experience with RK and some years now with GoldTone.  They have been taken down and dissected many times.  We really don't know what might show up with these new entries.  I'm not seeing enough to change my recommendations, but I do want to try one.

waystation - Posted - 06/05/2024:  13:13:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian Murphy

---

I agree the engraving pattern is the same, but I do see differences.

---

To be fair, there are more significant differences, like maple vs. sapele, that make these banjos different. Just because they bought their armrests from the same supplier doesn't mean they made the same or even comparable choices in the more significant components. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they were very close in quality and some portion of the cost difference is due to an "Earl Scruggs tax". This banjo will generate lots of interest and they'll probably sell a boatload of them, so I hope for the sake of the next generation of beginner players that this isn't just lipstick on a pig.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 06/05/2024:  13:31:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by waystation

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they were very close in quality and some portion of the cost difference is due to an "Earl Scruggs tax".

---

The quality of the B200 and the same banjos badged for others (GEWA and also Caraya and Gosila) is generally terrible. The rims are lightweight block rims with the cheapest wood and they aren't cut properly for the flange and pot metal tone ring, heel cuts can be poor and components are the cheapest possible which is why they are so cheap. I have a GEWA which I bought cheap and it's the worst made banjo I've seen and I've bought plenty of cheap banjos. The list of problems with it is long.

heavy5 - Posted - 06/05/2024:  13:53:42

Time will tell by users . I hope China changes the resonator back purfling locations/spacings if provided ?

waystation - Posted - 06/05/2024:  14:48:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by GrahamHawker

 

---

An easy way to tell a banjo is cheap: if the description of the instrument leads off with "high-quality REMO drum head".

If the $20 head is the biggest selling point of the banjo, it doesn't speak well for the rest of the instrument.

In fact, the description lists only these four things:

1. Remo head

2. Black walnut fingerboard and bridge (!)

3. Geared 5th string tuner

4. Padded gig bag

Nuf said.

Edited by - waystation on 06/05/2024 14:52:54

GaryHopkins - Posted - 06/05/2024:  15:05:29

I got an email from Gibson Garage with this little bit of info..... "Earl Scruggs Golden Deluxe and the master tone classic. Both have traditional one piece Flan style master tone tone rings"...... I'll be able to share so. E info tomorrow or Friday. I've got one arriving from Epiphone tomorrow. If it's junk, I'll send it back.

Patrick1962 - Posted - 06/05/2024:  18:10:12

Im still new to all of this..only been practicing for 9 months now. I had studied/listened to dozens and dozens of banjos. Had finally settled on getting an RK R20 then in a year or two getting the RK R76 (I like mahogany and hearts/flowers). I really like the RK's. I don't really care one way or another about the gold plating but the rest of it looks wonderful to me.
What do I do now? Could use a little help/guidance here..

HighLonesomeF5 - Posted - 06/05/2024:  18:26:58

Bluegrass Today describes the ES model as:

“This would seem to be the closest one can get to buying a banjo from Gibson these days, and the newly-introduced models include a copy of the Earl Scruggs Golden Deluxe model, made to resemble the Granada banjo he played most of his career. This banjo was famously known for its combination of a maple neck and a mahogany resonator, and the various Earl Scruggs banjos offered by Gibson before 2010 were their best sellers by far.”

I thought Earl’s Granada had a mahogany neck and maple res.

Brian Murphy - Posted - 06/05/2024:  19:30:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by Patrick1962

Im still new to all of this..only been practicing for 9 months now. I had studied/listened to dozens and dozens of banjos. Had finally settled on getting an RK R20 then in a year or two getting the RK R76 (I like mahogany and hearts/flowers). I really like the RK's. I don't really care one way or another about the gold plating but the rest of it looks wonderful to me.

What do I do now? Could use a little help/guidance here..

---

Go with the RK.  

GaryHopkins - Posted - 06/05/2024:  19:57:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by GaryHopkins

I got an email from Gibson Garage with this little bit of info..... "Earl Scruggs Golden Deluxe and the master tone classic. Both have traditional one piece Flan style master tone tone rings"...... I'll be able to share some info tomorrow or Friday. I've got one arriving from Epiphone tomorrow. If it's junk, I'll send it back.

---