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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: How snappy are your pull-offs?


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/396426

TScottHilton - Posted - 03/21/2024:  14:22:26


I have a decent 3-2 pull-off on the third string. I can get nice note differentiation, but there is just something lacking. I am envious of players whose 3-2 pull-offs sound consistently compact and crisp. I know there are two schools of thought in terms of pulling down vs flicking upward. Either way, I want to clean it up. What would you do?

Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/21/2024:  14:29:22


When you do your pull offs, are you using the fleshy part of your finger or are you using your fingernail? If you can use your fingernail, that seems to make a cleaner, clearer, crisper pull off/push off, at least it does for me. It's also rough on your fingernails if they're not in good shape.

TScottHilton - Posted - 03/21/2024:  14:54:51


quote:

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

When you do your pull offs, are you using the fleshy part of your finger or are you using your fingernail? If you can use your fingernail, that seems to make a cleaner, clearer, crisper pull off/push off, at least it does for me. It's also rough on your fingernails if they're not in good shape.






Typically I use the calloused tip of my middle finger. I will have to try the finger nail though! That makes sense.

NotABanjoYoda - Posted - 03/21/2024:  15:03:30


Im of a third school of thought. Pull it back like a bowstring, give her a quit pinch against the fretboard and release. Takes time to perfect the right location at the fingertip . Been doing it stage for 20 years with no complaints.

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/21/2024:  15:18:37


I try get it to sound like a triplet, , real snappy. Some days my fingers are quick enough, other days not.



share.icloud.com/photos/0de7DQ...rt7bR-eiw



share.icloud.com/photos/020bbW...HgmMS7Rsg


Edited by - chuckv97 on 03/21/2024 15:26:46

stanleytone - Posted - 03/21/2024:  16:15:55


A good callous on your fretting fingers goes a long way to getting a good pull off. It acts like a pick. How do you get it? Im sure everyone knows the answer.


Edited by - stanleytone on 03/21/2024 16:16:29

leehar - Posted - 03/21/2024:  16:20:26


Watch and listen carefully to videos of JD Crowe and Terry Baucom. Two of the best pull off pickers you’ll ever hear. I guess I tend to mostly push the string away from the palm and let it pop off of the callus on my middle finger. If it’s the first string second fret pull off I believe I do the opposite however. I’ll have to grab the banjo now and see if that’s right!

leehar - Posted - 03/21/2024:  16:53:16


Actually glad this topic came up. When you’ve played as many years as I have (49 years) you don’t give much thought to the techniques you use. I find after picking up my banjo that I’m pushing off some of the time and pulling toward the palm other times. It kind of depends on what the other left hand fingers are doing. If I’m holding a first position C chord I’ll pull the first sting second fret off with the ring finger. If it’s the second fret first string like in fireball mail I’ll push the string away from the palm. On the forth string I’m usually pulling the string toward the palm again. I really didn’t realize I was using that many variations. Not a bad idea to really analyze what you’re doing once in a while!

jimbopicks - Posted - 03/21/2024:  16:53:30


When I first started playing the banjo I took lessons from Charles Wood. He told me two things about pull-offs and specifically the 3-2 pull-off. First was to pull sideways, not up off the fretboard, drag the finger sideways towards the floor until the string pops off.



Second, on the 3-2 pull-off specifically, as you pull the finger off the 3rd string, drag it across the 2nd string on the way out so that you get a percussive sound, makes it almost sound like you are playing an extra note. I remember finding that hard to do at first, but it's become habit now.


Edited by - jimbopicks on 03/21/2024 16:54:06

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/21/2024:  19:37:27


My 3-2 pull-offs got lazy, then they became slides, then those got lazy and became 3-0 lift-offs. I didn't notice how bad they'd become until at banjo camp in 2018 Kristin Scott Benson told us how "the standard" today (demanded by record producers? band leaders?)  was snappy pull-offs.



Since then, I've had to make a conscious effort to execute snappy pull-offs. I don't always succeed.



When I do them, I pull across toward the 2nd string with the fingertip, leaving the index finger fretting the 2nd fret. Sometimes I get lazy and do a slide.

RB3 - Posted - 03/21/2024:  20:49:52


In the beginning, the problem for me was semantics. The hammer-on made sense to me, and I learned to execute it fairly quickly. But I interpreted the term "pull-off" to mean that it was just the reverse of the hammer-on. It wasn't until I figured out that the technique should have been called a "pick-off", that I began to make some progress. Evidently, the guy who coined the term "pull-off", must have decided that he couldn't use "pick-off", because it had already been taken by baseball.

eagleisland - Posted - 03/22/2024:  06:49:54


Direction of the pulloff really doesn't matter. Over time, I've developed the ability to send it either way, depending on where that finger is needed next.

Here's something that might be worth considering, however. Lots of players focus on using middle finger to index on their 3-2 pulloffs. And that's fine. But as a teacher, I've found that many students actually do better, at least starting out, if they go from ring finger to index. There's just more power that way - and over time, as their skill and fine motor control improves, they can get good results going middle to index.

Personally, I don't even think about it any more - sometimes when playing I go ring to index and sometimes middle to index. It all just sorta happens.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/22/2024:  06:55:56


quote:

Originally posted by Texasbanjo

When you do your pull offs, are you using the fleshy part of your finger or are you using your fingernail? If you can use your fingernail, that seems to make a cleaner, clearer, crisper pull off/push off, at least it does for me. It's also rough on your fingernails if they're not in good shape.






Do you actually touch the string with your fingernail, Sherry? I don't think I've ever seen that, BUT I do get my best 3-2 pulloffs when my nail is a little too long. My nail doesn't actually touch the string, but it does act as a sort of retaining wall to stiffen up the blob of flesh on my fingertip. When I interviewed Terry Baucom for Banjo NewsLetter back in 1998, he said something that sounded like that worked for him, too, though he expressed it a little differently.



Tony Furtado once recommended trying the pulloff with the RING and index. Sure enough, the different angle or whatever helps for some people, though it may make some of your other left hand fingerings a bit awkward.



Also helpful (for me, at least) was a suggestion from former BNL columnist Rob Sacks (sp?) that involved pushing the finger at the second fret very slightly in the opposite direction from the pull/push. For example, I pull down with my middle finger, so I push up slightly with my index.

RB3 - Posted - 03/22/2024:  07:39:24


Take a look at the way Jim Mills does them.  He does several in succession at the 2:08 minute mark of the video.  Pretty snappy.



Tennessee Banjo Man

Owen - Posted - 03/22/2024:  07:52:41


Wayne: "... it wasn't until I figured out that the technique should have been called a "pick-off" .....  etc."



It's onto a bit of a tangent, but I'm still trying to figure out (?) the whole process ^^. 



I got this from a deeringbanjo.com blog: "One of the first questions to arise in any pull-off study is the arrangement of the fretting fingers. Do we plant with our index finger, and pull with our middle? Logically, this makes sense—basic fretting exercises often teach us to assign one finger per fret. However, to really get that ‘sting’ of a strong pull-off, we need to anchor the pulling finger immediately behind the third fret. For most of us, this will be more easily achieved by placing the ring finger—not the middle finger—immediately behind the third fret, while the index finger is firmly anchored, snugged up behind the second fret. While there is no ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ way to do this, make this your starting point before experimenting further. "



In deering's explanation ^^, will the actual "pull-off" be performed with the ring finger?



Edit: I think the video answers my question. Thanks.


Edited by - Owen on 03/22/2024 07:55:12

Pick-A-Lick - Posted - 03/22/2024:  08:02:49


Hi Tyler, I hope the following information is useful to you.



I first picked up a banjo after decades of guitar picking so much of my banjo fretboard finger style is based on my established blues based guitar style which involves much string manipulation.

That said; On the typical 3-2 G string pull off I plant the string on the second fret with my middle finger and the pull-off or push-off is accomplished by my ring finger pad pushing or pulling sideways until the string pops free making a snapping sound. I have experimented using index plant with middle finger pull-off (traditional style) but I find my consistency, volume, speed, and “economy of motion” lies with my ring finger. I think this is a personal preference. 

My decision to push-off vs pull-off is based on the location of next string I will be playing (e.g. will a 3-2 G third string pull-off interfere with the clean sound of the B second string which is picked next), also, which direction my fingers need to be traveling after completing the P-off (e.g. 3-2 G string push off followed by open B string with an immediate 3-2 G string pull-off followed by open high D string). The relationship of the string to the edge of the fretboard is also important as I much prefer push-offs of the high D string traveling towards the middle of the fretboard and pull-offs oh the low D string also traveling towards the middle of the fretboard.



What ever methods are chosen practice to ad nauseam and it will become natural.



 


Edited by - Pick-A-Lick on 03/22/2024 08:16:20

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/22/2024:  08:35:12


Nobody has mentioned what a huge factor banjo setup is. String gauge, action and especially fret height are critical to playing clean.

TScottHilton - Posted - 03/22/2024:  11:44:04


Thanks all. I'll give some of these techniques a try. The ring finger approach is interesting. What's funny is my other pull-offs in other locations are nice and snappy. I think it just has to do with the geometry of my hand when I fret in the middle of the fret board.

RB3 - Posted - 03/22/2024:  13:07:01


By posting the Jim Mills video, I wasn't trying to imply that that's the way it's supposed to be done. I've always used the index and middle fingers when the pull-off is from one fret to the next, so I was surprised when I discovered that Mills used his index and ring fingers. However, I often do a pull-off from the fourth fret to the second fret on the third string when holding the conventional D chord, so using the ring finger is not completely foreign to me. It's certainly hard to argue with the technique of someone as accomplished as Jim Mills.

Joe62 - Posted - 03/22/2024:  14:34:26


Would low action make snappy pull offs harder to pull off?

gcpicken - Posted - 03/25/2024:  17:06:26


I stink, but I’ll weigh-in anyway. I was just happy to hit notes and I only pulled-off. They just sounded mushy. Then I saw Sean Ray’s (tab, video lessons, and BHO member), exquisite push-offs. Rather than hate him for his beautiful Radio City Rockette high-kick-like push-off, I’ve spent a year and a half trying to duplicate. I practice them as a stand-alone exercise for about 5 minutes a day. I can get the best crisp sound by starting the push-off on the side of the string, instead of on-top of it. It’s still a conscious effort, and years of guitar want me to fall back to pull-offs.



Here is a link to a Sean Ray video - watch his middle finger high-kick! youtu.be/MzNF-5AedH0?si=hqWsxGMZckzubPsQ

Then you need to work on the second string 2-1 PO (as in Clinch Mountain) and the second string 1–0 PO.


Edited by - gcpicken on 03/25/2024 17:16:04

Flying Eagle - Posted - 03/26/2024:  09:40:09


quote:

Originally posted by TScottHilton

I have a decent 3-2 pull-off on the third string. I can get nice note differentiation, but there is just something lacking. I am envious of players whose 3-2 pull-offs sound consistently compact and crisp. I know there are two schools of thought in terms of pulling down vs flicking upward. Either way, I want to clean it up. What would you do?






This seems to be something that has become an issue in recent years. When I listen to Earl Scruggs or Sonny Osborne, I don't hear a lot of noise coming from the action of the pull off. Was it Crowe who made "snappy pulloffs a "thing"?

chuckv97 - Posted - 03/26/2024:  09:57:14


Nowadays almost everyone makes it sound like a triplet,, the older guys had the pulled-off note sounding simultaneously with the next picked note, as is often written in tab.

Jack Baker - Posted - 03/26/2024:  11:05:56


This question has been asked a billion times.....


There is no answer to this question concerning triplet or duple pull offs. Stop trying to imitate everyone and do it your way until you get it. Yes, a pull or push off followed by another string, usually the 1st is usually how this is done....There is no banjo player alive who does it the correct way, just their way. Just get a good pull from the 3rd to the 2nd and stop worrying about how others do this maneuever...Jack




Originally posted by TScottHilton

I have a decent 3-2 pull-off on the third string. I can get nice note differentiation, but there is just something lacking. I am envious of players whose 3-2 pull-offs sound consistently compact and crisp. I know there are two schools of thought in terms of pulling down vs flicking upward. Either way, I want to clean it up. What would you do?






 


Edited by - Jack Baker on 03/26/2024 11:13:20

depoyd - Posted - 03/27/2024:  07:35:06


Here's a real quick sample of all three - Keeping in mind these devices re just used to get you from one melody note to the next.
youtu.be/ZuJ4FB27ENU


steve davis - Posted - 03/31/2024:  14:56:12


Practice playing pull-offs and hammers without picking.
Get as much of a note as you can with just the fretting fingers.
A firm fretting of the 2 in a 3-2 pull-off also helps.

gcpicken - Posted - 04/01/2024:  10:24:08


Just for information, I was watching Alison Brown on ArtistWorks, and pulls off (she calls it a “Pull Down”), and only pushes off when pulling down would interfere with whats happening on the adjacent string (she says “I give you permission to push off in that situation”).


Edited by - gcpicken on 04/01/2024 10:24:55

phb - Posted - 04/10/2024:  03:56:22


The thread title makes me feel a bit like women may feel when they see magazines with headlines that imply that some part of their body needs attention to be ready for summer. I rather not find out how snappy my pull-offs are, nobody has every complained about them. I might not like what I find once I pay attention.

Fretting Fingers - Posted - 04/26/2024:  03:41:45


Hi Tyler,

I came across a tune that Mr. Clark (Banjo Ben) wrote as a practice tune for pull off's. I have found it beneficial. If you would like to take a look at it here is the YouTube link.
youtube.com/watch?v=cA15RX6j1lY

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