banjo bill-e - Posted - 02/27/2024:  10:19:01

A young White American male, in the Air Force, fatally sets himself on fire to protest -------XXXXXXXXX-------- it really doesn't matter what he was protesting and discussing that would lead us to lock. But I'm finding a strange amount of online support for his actions, which to me seem have been caused by CSMI, contagious social mental illness, a term which I just now made up. Does this seem like a heroic act to anyone?

Owen - Posted - 02/27/2024:  10:31:04

I dunno whether it has to be either/or. 

I contend that we all have a civic duty to at least not turn a blind eye to wrongdoing.  How each individual chooses to do that is largely his/her choice.  Being a "man of conviction" carries some weight, IMNSHumbleO, although I suspect there will be much "lost in translation/fart in a hurricane" between him and those who can implement substantive change.

monstertone - Posted - 02/27/2024:  10:38:25

Just goes to, dare I say verify, the extent some people afflicted with CSMI will go.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 02/27/2024:  11:04:57

The last words of Aaron Bushnell:



Many of us like to ask ourselves, "what would I do if I was alive during slavery?------------what would I do if my country was committing genocide?" The answer is, you're doing it. Right now.



perhaps a subject worth discussing?

Edited by - banjo bill-e on 02/27/2024 11:05:25

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/27/2024:  11:11:29

I cannot imagine anyone setting themselves on fire for any reason. There are other ways to protest, to state your opinion that don't end in your being maimed, disfigured or killed.

I can't imagine a sane person doing anything like that.

rinemb - Posted - 02/27/2024:  11:11:46

A new book is out, now. "Martyr" by Kevah Akbar. A novel about a down and out man, who has a lot of problems, then decides to kill himself, but spends time investigating how to commit suicide and his life finally meaning something. (maybe this dude read the book) Where to light himself up is one consideration. Full disclosure, I did not read it, but I did go to the author event at our local independent book store.

Mad Hornet - Posted - 02/27/2024:  11:18:27

MK Ultra

Dempsey-T2 - Posted - 02/27/2024:  11:48:20

Heroic protest I suggest, but under which alcohol or drug ? Sadly in an awful mess just the same..

Mad Hornet - Posted - 02/27/2024:  11:51:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

A young White American male, in the Air Force, fatally sets himself on fire to protest -------XXXXXXXXX-------- it really doesn't matter what he was protesting and discussing that would lead us to lock. But I'm finding a strange amount of online support for his actions, which to me seem have been caused by CSMI, contagious social mental illness, a term which I just now made up. Does this seem like a heroic act to anyone?

---

To answer your question.  Absolutely not.  And in a few days it will be forgotten by everyone except people who knew him or personally witnessed it.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 02/27/2024:  12:26:30

I think back to watching Buddhist monks immolate themselves during the Vietnam War. But that was different and involved their religious training and cultural context. I think there was more going on with this young man than a felt need to protest U.S. policy and Israeli actions.

Edited by - Bill Rogers on 02/27/2024 13:42:53

Owen - Posted - 02/27/2024:  12:41:35

Sherry: "I can't imagine a sane person doing anything like that."

Not pertaining to protesting, but .... I can, IF those in charge of telling individuals what is best for "everybody" don't get MAiD "right."

Edited by - Owen on 02/27/2024 12:49:00

rinemb - Posted - 02/27/2024:  13:34:40

Side note...I would rather someone light themselves up, then shoot up a venue with guns, or mow down folks with a truck, or set bombs.
That said, I would imagine inducing that much pain to one's self involves mental illness or drugs or a combination of both. With acts like monks etc being a bit an exception involving extreme zealousness, faith, etc. Brad

South Jersey Mike - Posted - 02/27/2024:  13:41:42

If the choices given are a firmly held belief versus some nonsense you just made up, there isn’t much of a choice to be made.



It does matter what someone is protesting. If they burned themselves in front of the Hershey factory to protest a reduction of caramel in a particular candy bar, that would seem extreme. In this situation I am surprised it hasn’t happened more.



There is no need for mental illness to do such a thing, it’s really just an inability to be indifferent. Most humans are blessed with the ability to not care beyond what it personally convenient.

Edited by - South Jersey Mike on 02/27/2024 13:42:29

banjo bill-e - Posted - 02/27/2024:  13:55:27

Perhaps it is nonsense, Mike, but I do believe that how his actions would be viewed and praised on social media played a major role in his decision. I also tend to believe that he learned and absorbed his views and attitudes about his cause of the day from social media, and that two years ago this ongoing thing which we are not mentioning was not even on his radar.

raybob - Posted - 02/27/2024:  14:37:18

Tried to post a link from WAPO that gives a little about his background and personal history. Something about the link BHO didn't like. (I've had this happen before, and it is a little irritating because I don't know why an article from a mass media provider should be rejected.)
He was raised in a religious compound on Cape Cod. The article also mentions "anarchist" tendencies. He was evidently planning to leave the USAF in the spring. The article should be easy to find if you're interested.

Mad Hornet - Posted - 02/27/2024:  14:44:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Jersey Mike

If the choices given are a firmly held belief versus some nonsense you just made up, there isn’t much of a choice to be made.



It does matter what someone is protesting. If they burned themselves in front of the Hershey factory to protest a reduction of caramel in a particular candy bar, that would seem extreme. In this situation I am surprised it hasn’t happened more.



There is no need for mental illness to do such a thing, it’s really just an inability to be indifferent. Most humans are blessed with the ability to not care beyond what it personally convenient.

---

As someone with no personal ties to the conflict, I do still care and certainly prefer it not be taking place because people shouldn't be killing one another.  However, we are lied to so much I refuse to take a side because I truly don't know what's real.  I do know we are constantly being played and there is a segment that wants this type of behavior.  Anytime I feel pressure to feel outraged over something, I gotta step back and wonder what is it they aren't telling us.  I firmly believe the person who did this was controlled.  I have no proof of this but it's what I think.

5B-Ranch - Posted - 02/27/2024:  14:47:19

Well if he lit himself up to protest then maybe others with the same beliefs might mimic this behavior? New meaning to light my fire. No I don’t feel any remorse for someone who would choose this rather than go a different an more productive route of protest. Did he accomplish anything with this action other than show his mental state?

Edited by - 5B-Ranch on 02/27/2024 14:55:00

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 02/27/2024:  15:04:46

Just not right in the head..

I do wonder if he had ..help..
Getting that way... :0/

RB3 - Posted - 02/27/2024:  16:35:27

Below is a a link to the story in the Washington Post.  According to the story, there were others who left the religious compound when they became adults and had difficulty adjusting to life outside the compound.

washingtonpost.com/?url...s%3A%2F%2Fwashingtonpost.com%2Fdc...th-gaza%2F">Aaron Bushnell Self Immolation

raybob - Posted - 02/27/2024:  18:47:54

Wayne, The link doesn't take me to the article. It says, "This site can't be reached". I'm just wondering, did BHO block WAPO articles ? (Just because, like I said, this has happened to me more than once.)

Owen - Posted - 02/27/2024:  18:57:48

I got ^^ that message too, but googling "Bushnell immolation Washington Post" yielded this [which sounds like it is quite similar]: washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/20...ath-gaza/

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 02/28/2024:  04:42:11

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Jersey Mike

If the choices given are a firmly held belief versus some nonsense you just made up, there isn’t much of a choice to be made.



It does matter what someone is protesting. If they burned themselves in front of the Hershey factory to protest a reduction of caramel in a particular candy bar, that would seem extreme. In this situation I am surprised it hasn’t happened more.



There is no need for mental illness to do such a thing, it’s really just an inability to be indifferent. Most humans are blessed with the ability to not care beyond what it personally convenient.

---

One thing is fer sure..

He used himself as a tool of statement..

Most parrents i know.. would sacrifice..themselves for thier children..

Might this be an extream use of this kind of response..?

The sticking up for the underdog ..so to speak.?

Or is it just suicide..by ..statement.n conviction of percived right n wrong..

I dunno..

But he did not take annahbody 

elese with him..

Lota  suicide practitioners..do..

Buddur - Posted - 02/28/2024:  08:08:54

Some people go to the extreme to make a point.

I'm sure he received praise for his dedication to the demonstration, but I'll bet he regretted his decision not too long after the flick of the Bic.

steve davis - Posted - 02/28/2024:  08:19:20

It was an horrific display by someone who had lost all hope in a solution from the powers that be.
I believe he's having the response he wanted and was willing to spend his life for.
He knew the world would be watching and might come away with wanting to improve things.

RB3 - Posted - 02/28/2024:  08:59:48

raybob/owen,

I read the Washington Post story using the "immersive reader" function on my browser and then copied the link while I was still in the immersive reader. I think that's why the link did not work.

bill53 - Posted - 02/28/2024:  09:35:59

Richard Pryor tried it but he put out the fire he said when that fire hits you you will move lol

South Jersey Mike - Posted - 02/28/2024:  11:39:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

Perhaps it is nonsense, Mike, but I do believe that how his actions would be viewed and praised on social media played a major role in his decision. I also tend to believe that he learned and absorbed his views and attitudes about his cause of the day from social media, and that two years ago this ongoing thing which we are not mentioning was not even on his radar.

---

The role it played is the reach of the message. I would be reluctant to dismiss a human beings' adversity to calamity  as a condition of social media. One can gather the same information from nearly any news source in the world. Some people care more than what is convenient, I admire that. He's a guy who took a stand, and in my opinion, is less impacted by social media than all the rubes mistaking Instagram posts and tweets as "action".

5B-Ranch - Posted - 02/28/2024:  16:39:41

Suicide is a selfish act. It says to the family grieving that I don’t believe you all could have helped me through this emotional pain.

Owen - Posted - 02/28/2024:  17:16:27

I'm no expert, but I wonder if "one size fits all" is always applicable.   My understanding is that in some instances there may be no "through" ... the future can be as bad as, or worse than, the current situation.

South Jersey Mike - Posted - 02/28/2024:  17:17:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5B-Ranch

Suicide is a selfish act. It says to the family grieving that I don’t believe you all could have helped me through this emotional pain.

---

As someone who has volunteered for a crisis line for twenty years, this statement is simply wrong.  

5B-Ranch - Posted - 02/28/2024:  18:29:07

It maybe wrong in your world but I believe that if the person contemplating the act would reach out to people who love them there might be a way to convince the suicidal person that there’s another way.

Owen - Posted - 02/28/2024:  19:46:31

Fwiw, I Googled <is suicide selfish?> and the preponderance of stuff that came up says it's not.

Owen - Posted - 02/28/2024:  19:46:48

What the ?!?!?  ... edited out a double post .... for the second time this evening.  

Edited by - Owen on 02/28/2024 19:48:09

5B-Ranch - Posted - 02/28/2024:  21:52:53

What do you call some one that does not share with anyone? Sharing your feeling and thoughts with love ones is being open. To not share your feelings and pain, to me, is being selfish. What are families for? Suicide hot lines are set up for what? To help the suicidal individual right? That person may be sharing thoughts and feelings to a complete stranger but will not talk to someone that cares and loves them? 

Edited by - 5B-Ranch on 02/28/2024 21:53:57

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/28/2024:  23:17:28

Mental illness, if even only temporary, can’t be rationalized. What seems logical to healthy folks doesn’t compute with a mentally sick person. It’s may seem selfish or cowardly to us,  but to a depressed or despairing individual it seems like the only road out.

Edited by - chuckv97 on 02/28/2024 23:19:46

AndrewD - Posted - 02/29/2024:  04:24:40

Anybody else remember Jan Palach ? Does our view on this depend on whether we agree with the protestor ? Whether their protest is ultimately successful ?

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 02/29/2024:  04:36:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by 5B-Ranch

What do you call some one that does not share with anyone? Sharing your feeling and thoughts with love ones is being open. To not share your feelings and pain, to me, is being selfish. What are families for? Suicide hot lines are set up for what? To help the suicidal individual right? That person may be sharing thoughts and feelings to a complete stranger but will not talk to someone that cares and loves them? 

---

Mebee the ...

Suicide..Hot Line..in..

Canada...is onta supmthin...

Very good at ..assistance...in that area..

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 02/29/2024:  04:38:09

quote:

---

Originally posted by AndrewD

Anybody else remember Jan Palach ? Does our view on this depend on whether we agree with the protestor ? Whether their protest is ultimately successful ?

---

I will halfta look up the Jan dude..

But you bring up a good point..worth consitering..imo.

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 02/29/2024:  04:45:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by chuckv97

Mental illness, if even only temporary, can’t be rationalized. What seems logical to healthy folks doesn’t compute with a mentally sick person. It’s may seem selfish or cowardly to us,  but to a depressed or despairing individual it seems like the only road out.

---

Having not been in thos shoes...yet...meself.. (some may claim that debatable )..

Yer thought seems valid..

mike gregory - Posted - 02/29/2024:  05:11:33

Mental illness, by definition, is irrational.

But not all irrational decisions are due to metal illness.

Owen - Posted - 02/29/2024:  06:23:03

Mr. Ranch: "To not share your feelings and pain, to me, is being selfish."

I acknowledge your "to me" qualifier, but to me there's more to "selfish" than "not sharing."  [Lots of definitions/explanations via Dr. Google.]   

Fwiw, I have  l-o-t-s  of thoughts and feelings that don't "share,"  but I don't see myself as being particularly selfish .,.. and if that isn't a sound basis for extrapolation, I don't know what would be. 

The rational/irrational aspect reminds me of the message on a poster down at our yocal health lab re. the need for, or the role/availability of counseling: "Perception is reality."

banjo bill-e - Posted - 02/29/2024:  06:25:20

A woman recently performed "Suicide is Painless" at an open mic and I was reminded that while I enjoy that melody, I do hate those lyrics, because suicide is not at all painless----for the survivors.

Dempsey-T2 - Posted - 02/29/2024:  07:06:46

*Mike Gregory

Mental illness, by definition, is irrational.

But not all irrational decisions are due to metal illness.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
You'd have trouble in proof ie: The door is both open and closed at the same time?

According to case law in a litigation between claimant 'Windthorst' and the company he worked for in a senior capacity, the Judge presiding eventually gave judgment of fair dismissal to Windhorst's company, he was found culpable by phycological and irrational fear and other resulting in mental imbalanced incapacity. He lost his job.

steve davis - Posted - 02/29/2024:  07:25:01

So the monks against the Viet Nam war are to be revered,but someone utterly fed up with the military/industrial connection to innocent deaths isn't?

mike gregory - Posted - 02/29/2024:  12:32:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dempsey-T2

*Mike Gregory



Mental illness, by definition, is irrational.



But not all irrational decisions are due to metal illness.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

You'd have trouble in proof ie: The door is both open and closed at the same time?



According to case law in a litigation between claimant 'Windthorst' and the company he worked for in a senior capacity, the Judge presiding eventually gave judgment of fair dismissal to Windhorst's company, he was found culpable by phycological and irrational fear and other resulting in mental imbalanced incapacity. He lost his job.

---

A person owns a vehicle which runs, and does not need repairs. That person buys another vehicle, because they feel like it, eevn though it puts them in debt for a few years.

That's not mental illness, nor is it a totally rational decision.

Owen - Posted - 02/29/2024:  13:03:12

Be forewarned ... thread drift: 

A blonde tried to sell her old car, but was having a lot of problems selling it because the car had 250,000 miles. One day she mentioned her problem to a friend who told her, “There is a way to make the car easier to sell but it’s not legal.”  “That doesn’t matter,” replied the blonde.

“OK,” said the friend. “Here’s the address of a friend of mine who owns a car repair shop. Tell him I sent you and he will turn the counter in your car back to 50,000 miles. Then it shouldn’t be a problem selling your car.”  The following weekend, the blonde made the trip to the mechanic.

A few weeks later their paths cross, and the friend asked the blonde,  “Did you sell your car?”  “No,” replied the blonde, “Why should I? It only has 50,000 miles on it.”

Edited by - Owen on 02/29/2024 13:12:42

Tommy5 - Posted - 02/29/2024:  20:47:40

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

So the monks against the Viet Nam war are to be revered,but someone utterly fed up with the military/industrial connection to innocent deaths isn't?

---

The monks weren't against the war, they were protesting the Diem government shutting down the Buddhist temples I believe. Your point is well taken, I don't think the defenders of the Alamo were considered  insane or mentally unbalanced for their act suicidal act.

Tommy5 - Posted - 02/29/2024:  20:53:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by Owen

Be forewarned ... thread drift: 

A blonde tried to sell her old car, but was having a lot of problems selling it because the car had 250,000 miles. One day she mentioned her problem to a friend who told her, “There is a way to make the car easier to sell but it’s not legal.”  “That doesn’t matter,” replied the blonde.

“OK,” said the friend. “Here’s the address of a friend of mine who owns a car repair shop. Tell him I sent you and he will turn the counter in your car back to 50,000 miles. Then it shouldn’t be a problem selling your car.”  The following weekend, the blonde made the trip to the mechanic.

A few weeks later their paths cross, and the friend asked the blonde,  “Did you sell your car?”  “No,” replied the blonde, “Why should I? It only has 50,000 miles on it.”

---

Did you know it's 2024? You are still telling blonde jokes?  If you don't think blondes are  stupid, the joke makes no sense . Change  the word blonde to "banjo player "there  , now it's acceptable.

Edited by - Tommy5 on 02/29/2024 20:53:43

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/29/2024:  21:12:12

banjoak : how many banjo players does it take to screw in a light bulb…..?
four, , one to screw in the light bulb and three to tell him that Earl didn’t do it that
way.