FenderFred - Posted - 03/21/2024:  10:16:50

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Learning an instrument is hard work. I quit more than once, it can be frustrating. It takes a lot of time and commitment and you really have to want to do it.

There’s your secret.

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Laurence Alan Munde nailed it when he said "It's easy when you know where all the notes are." That must surely be the secret.

Edited by - FenderFred on 03/21/2024 10:28:51

monstertone - Posted - 03/21/2024:  11:29:08

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Originally posted by FenderFred

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Learning an instrument is hard work. I quit more than once, it can be frustrating. It takes a lot of time and commitment and you really have to want to do it.

There’s your secret.

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Laurence Alan Munde nailed it when he said "It's easy when you know where all the notes are." That must surely be the secret.

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 Knowing where the notes are certainly helps. 

My little pea brain thinks first determine the note's pitch, followed by where are they located, which fingers are available, & what follows. The options among three fingers, five strings, & two octaves, not to mention, personal preference, equals a whole slew of options.   Of course, the real secret lies within. Do I want to sound like Earl, JD, Sonny, Alan, all, or none, of the above?

Edited by - monstertone on 03/21/2024 11:36:20

Old Hickory - Posted - 03/21/2024:  11:58:17

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Originally posted by monstertone

Exactly Ken. The problem though, as I see it, is the bulk of what you just said, goes right over the top, of the novice's head, who are expecting to find some magic formula.

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Yes. We have seen countless discussions by novices asking "What roll should I use for (name that tune)?"

Answer: Any of them. All of them. None of them.

I'm not forgetting what it was like to be a beginner. But I guess I was lucky that my banjo education was not roll based. I came to banjo at 21 with 8 years of guitar, including some basic fingerpicking. Mainly I needed to learn the mechanics of picking banjo. So while that implies rolls, at my first lesson, my first teacher spent only a few minutes on rolls and then got right into a song. He showed me "Earl's Breakdown" (tuner-less version) and sent me home to work on that. There are several different rolls in there. And several fundamental licks or patterns.

Each week for maybe a month was a different tune. When he ran out of stuff to show me -- because he hadn't been playing very long himself -- he sent me to his teacher, who also gave me more tunes. Meanwhile, I started working out tunes for myself from slowed down tapes. Mostly Doug Dillard. This was summer during college, so I had a lot of time.

So from the outset, I learned and practiced rolls only in the context of tunes and solos, not as repetitive exercises.  "What roll do I use for this song" is a question I never asked. If I was working it out off a recording, I played what I heard. If I was working out my own version of something, I just attacked the song, trying different patterns to get the sound I want. That's still how I do it today.

This is not to say I never learn rolls or patterns. All the teachers I watch or subscribe to teach useful  repetitive patterns (some with movable shapes) even in their intermediate and advanced lessons. The ones I've found easiest to adopt have increased the number and variety of things I can do when improvising in a jam or gig, helping to reduce the sameness in my playing that I've never fully escaped.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 03/21/2024:  14:25:40

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Originally posted by monstertone

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Originally posted by FenderFred

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Learning an instrument is hard work. I quit more than once, it can be frustrating. It takes a lot of time and commitment and you really have to want to do it.

There’s your secret.

---

Laurence Alan Munde nailed it when he said "It's easy when you know where all the notes are." That must surely be the secret.

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 Knowing where the notes are certainly helps. 

My little pea brain thinks first determine the note's pitch, followed by where are they located, which fingers are available, & what follows. The options among three fingers, five strings, & two octaves, not to mention, personal preference, equals a whole slew of options.   Of course, the real secret lies within. Do I want to sound like Earl, JD, Sonny, Alan, all, or none, of the above?

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I started to worry we were all flogging a dead horse but then I remembered that this is banjo hangout 

Disecting playing choices into tiny parts can be useful at times but let's not lose sight of the fact that we're trying to play music here.  I hope I don't need to elaborate, I'm getting tired. 

FenderFred - Posted - 03/21/2024:  16:14:21

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

quote:

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Originally posted by monstertone

quote:

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Originally posted by FenderFred

quote:

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Originally posted by Laurence Diehl

Learning an instrument is hard work. I quit more than once, it can be frustrating. It takes a lot of time and commitment and you really have to want to do it.

There’s your secret.

---

Laurence Alan Munde nailed it when he said "It's easy when you know where all the notes are." That must surely be the secret.

---

 Knowing where the notes are certainly helps. 

My little pea brain thinks first determine the note's pitch, followed by where are they located, which fingers are available, & what follows. The options among three fingers, five strings, & two octaves, not to mention, personal preference, equals a whole slew of options.   Of course, the real secret lies within. Do I want to sound like Earl, JD, Sonny, Alan, all, or none, of the above?

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I started to worry we were all flogging a dead horse but then I remembered that this is banjo hangout 

Disecting playing choices into tiny parts can be useful at times but let's not lose sight of the fact that we're trying to play music here.  I hope I don't need to elaborate, I'm getting tired. 

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I can't believe this thread is still active. Oh yes I can this is the Banjo Hangout like a fiddle tune it just goes on and on and on and......

Edited by - FenderFred on 03/21/2024 16:14:55

RB3 - Posted - 03/21/2024:  21:17:29

I have to disagree with Mr. Munde, "that once you know where the notes are, it's easy. You still have to figure out how to play the notes, and more importantly, you have to figure out when to play them. The difference between playing a banjo and playing music with a banjo consists of playing the notes when they're intended to be played.

FenderFred - Posted - 03/22/2024:  02:06:02

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Originally posted by RB3

I have to disagree with Mr. Munde, "that once you know where the notes are, it's easy. You still have to figure out how to play the notes, and more importantly, you have to figure out when to play them. The difference between playing a banjo and playing music with a banjo consists of playing the notes when they're intended to be played.

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YAWN.... You are entitled to your opinion. Alan is currently one of the TOP 10 best banjo teachers around.  But I think you are missing the point, you need to work through his course to realize his message. But I have no desire to debate this topic if indeed that is your intent. My reason for quoting Alan was a tongue-in-cheek response to a comment Laurence made. To be honest I think this thread has gone well past it's used by date. Any value it had was lost after page two.

Edited by - FenderFred on 03/22/2024 02:08:27

Wobba - Posted - 03/31/2024:  21:58:37

Owen, the way you say you cannot distinguish notes, rolls, etc., it sounds like you have some degree of Congenital Amusia, a condition commonly called tone deafness. About 4% of the population have this condition, though the severity can vary. People with it will have difficulty hearing notes, note changes, chord changes, etc. Basically everything you're complaining about. There is the The Montreal Battery of Evaluation of Amusia that can be administered by a ear specialists, such as an audiologist, to determine the extent of amusia someone is dealing with.

monstertone - Posted - 04/01/2024:  09:33:46

My brother started on banjo, guitar. Mother said he was tone-deaf, playing out of tune stringed instruments. Like me, he also had piano lessons as a kid. Also, like me, it didn't take. Scott never gave up on stringed instruments, would only play alone. He compensated by taking up keyboards. They are always in tune.

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 04/01/2024:  10:53:47

Congenital amusia. I like that, it sounds better than tone deaf. Well, if you suck at banjo there’s always Off Topic! 

Owen - Posted - 04/01/2024:  13:02:04

Thanks Robert. I don't have a hearing assessment in the foreseeable future, but I'll keep amusia in mind... and maybe if it doesn't add too many $$ ........  

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In the meantime I guess I'll just carry on sucking at banjo .... and [possibly?] more importantly, coming to BHO to be reminded why 'tis so [amusia notwithstanding].   

Edited by - Owen on 04/01/2024 13:14:59

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 04/19/2024:  12:47:49

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Originally posted by chuckv97

Ralph Stanley relied on the forward a LOT , but he’d break it up here and there’s with a reverse roll. If you like a lot of forward rolls go for it,,, have a listen to Ralph’s playing and look at Stanleytone’s Ralph tabs to get ideas. His tabs are in his photos section of his BHO page.

Other than that, if you could video or record some of your playing and post it, maybe one of us here could critique it and help you out. 

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Agreed. Also look into Don Reno. He used ALOT more forward roll than most people realize and he had all sorts of tricks to make it sound different.

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/19/2024:  17:12:59

Grab a 5 string banjo, use your thumb, index and middle fingers, move them in different directions and all the rest will come. That's what Reno, R. Stanley, Scruggs, Munde etc. did a million times and they made some kind of music happen. That's the trick folks; don't give it a thought...Jack     HAPPY PASSOVER FOLKS

Edited by - Jack Baker on 04/19/2024 17:24:18