Fred, Why don't people on BHO just call each other by cell? These long long posts are exhausting to follow....I've never seen such a "stress" level on any other instrument but Banjo....Just an Idea...Jack
Fred, like I already explained, the "stream of notes" was posted by Phillip, but I got it while reading your post in reply to Philipp. You/Philipp ... the source is totally irrelevant to it's use to illustrate what I hear.
I took "Owen, [...] My links to BBC will provide the answers you seek but if your not willing to help yourself .... ." to be directed at me. [Targeted?? I dunno.]
"Give it a try or NOT" .... As previously mentioned, I did give it a try. It was a year or 2 back; as I recall I could choose 3 sample lessons, so I picked three I thought I might understand. But, t'weren't to be ... all were w-a-y beyond my ability/comprehension, and like I previously mentioned, when I asked a question, I didn't get an answer that I could understand. Another interesting tid-bit was that in BB's intro to one of the lessons, he pointed out that "you will have noticed the use of some roll (?) or other at some point" in the bit he played. Heck, I couldn't hear/discern it even after he pointed it out.
I asked what your basis was for "not willing to help yourself," but can't find an answer.... ditto for my question about seeing the breadth of abilities from two different vantage points.
I suspect you're not interested in unsolicited advice re. "help the best that I can," but IMNSHumbleO, your message would be considerably more effective if you put "... my advice doesn't/may not work for you" or even something as simple as "I found him to be a huge help ...YMMV" along with the links to the videos. Might be just me, but I get an element of "If something sounds too good .... etc." in your promotions (?).
The was intended to convey a lighthearted tone* ... same as it would if we were talking face-to-face.
As an aside, I wonder if I'm just miffed because back when I worked as an un-certified spec. ed. teacher I missed my opportunity to use phrases like "you gotta be willing to help yourself" or "you can lead a horse, etc." on students' reports/evaluations.
* = same as in my first post ... [nothing between the lines] if I could use the forward roll it would double my "bag o' tricks."
Anyhow ... carry on .... the universe is unfolding as it should, no?
Well at least you gave BBC a try Owen. I am sorry things didn't work out for you. I too have tried out lots of other teachers on my banjo journey and they didn't inspire me. I hope you find what your looking for.
Why don't people on BHO just call each other by cell? These long long posts are exhausting to follow....I've never seen such a "stress" level on any other instrument but Banjo....Just an Idea...Jack
Calling international is costly besides I don't have a cell phone.
I understand. Everyone I know in NJ or NYC has a cell phone or they couldn't go to work without it...Very odd to hear...Jack
Even homeless people have a cellphone around here and mine is tethered to my hip. WhatsApp is free to use for international calls. If you have a cellphone that is. But if you don't, well...
oh dear another diversion that has nothing to do with forward rolls.
Cell phone,, schmell phone… ya want forward rolls, well, just listen to ol’ Ralph Stanley ,, here he is (with, gasp!, tab included) youtu.be/9j7AzdS9OYA?si=cAP7kuWHNXjZYFDG
I understand. Everyone I know in NJ or NYC has a cell phone or they couldn't go to work without it...Very odd to hear...Jack
Sure is a strange world outside of NJ or NYC people can walk the streets and not be stopped by a cop. Yes it sure is a strange world on the other side of the big pond
Hey Owen, if you can't hear when a roll changes, that tells me that you don't know the music you're trying to play. If you want to be good at Bluegrass banjo, you gotta listen to as much Bluegrass banjo as you can. That way you brain has a chance to recognize patterns. Whether thanks on the internet, or on a CD, vinyl record, cassette tape, radio, it doesn't matter, as long as you listen. Without listen to the music regularly your brain will never get the chance to recognize the music patterns.
Thanks Robert. I didn't "grow up" on BG, but for the past 12ish years it's been mostly* BG .... Youtube in the house [retirement means a fair bit of time spent there] , CDs in the vehicle. But I concur... I don't "know" the music. [Edit: On occasion I've slowed Youtube playback to 25% and even though it becomes almost "unlistenable," it's still too fast for me to decipher things.]
* = even though Saturday Nite Blues on CBC radio took it on the chin a couple of years back.
Edit #2: Being good?? For the first couple of years, my goal was to be able to play in a jam and not screw it up for others. That ain't happening, but I like the music, so I still listen to it.
Thanks Robert. I didn't "grow up" on BG, but for the past 12ish years it's been mostly* BG .... Youtube in the house [retirement means a fair bit of time spent there] , CDs in the vehicle. But I concur... I don't "know" the music. [Edit: On occasion I've slowed Youtube playback to 25% and even though it becomes almost "unlistenable," it's still too fast for me to decipher things.]
* = even though Saturday Nite Blues on CBC radio took it on the chin a couple of years back.
Edit #2: Being good?? For the first couple of years, my goal was to be able to play in a jam and not screw it up for others. That ain't happening, but I like the music, so I still listen to it.
Hi Owen
Check out this video with Alan Munde can you hear / separate the roll patterns from the other licks and embellishments. It's sounds as though Alan is taking the listener on a journey with his backup as he leads the singer and the band. I am not from a BG Background either but this kind of instruction helped me listen and work stuff out. It may God willing help you.
Check out this video with Alan Munde can you hear / separate the roll patterns from the other licks and embellishments. It's sounds as though Alan is taking the listener on a journey with his backup as he leads the singer and the band. I am not from a BG Background either but this kind of instruction helped me listen and work stuff out. It may God willing help you.
Thanks Fred. What I hear is a "stream of notes" ... though I think I can hear some up the neck picking, some hammer ons (?), maybe some slides. I can not discern if there are chord changes or what roll pattern is used or whether or not he uses more than one roll..... or even if he's "rolling" if I don't watch it as well. And even while watching, I couldn't identify the roll he's using ... well, maybe with a lot of stop/go/rewind ... and several "calm down now Owen" breaks thrown in....
But, when he gets to explaining it, I think it does illustrate what you're telling me, though I still need an in-person teacher (?) to break it down into m-u-c-h smaller bits, and to answer questions.
He mentions "lots of different ways to fill in the holes.... " but then from what I see/hear the embellishments (?) take over and the roll(?) seems to be filling in the holes.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but "... taking the listener on a journey ... and leading the singer and the band .... " has me: "Huh?!!? It's no wonder I have trouble with music." To each his/her own, I suppose.
I personally think there should be a "Sticky" for "forward, and all roll" posts since they tend to go on and on and on....Jack
You could be right Jack. Who'd a thought a lighthearted, innocuous comment/observation [not a query or an expression of frustration] would lead to the BHO version of General Hospital? I thought I'd seen a few places where it had come to a natural (?) close, but obviously I was mistaken .... none of this "let sleeping dogs lie" malarkey for [some] BHOers.
Edit: And to show that I'm willing to pull my weight: I'm not going back to check, but I think it was in this thread where "single note melody" was mentioned. Is that possible? ... or a typo? ... or ??
Check out this video with Alan Munde can you hear / separate the roll patterns from the other licks and embellishments. It's sounds as though Alan is taking the listener on a journey with his backup as he leads the singer and the band. I am not from a BG Background either but this kind of instruction helped me listen and work stuff out. It may God willing help you.
Thanks Fred. What I hear is a "stream of notes" ... though I think I can hear some up the neck picking, some hammer ons (?), maybe some slides. I can not discern if there are chord changes or what roll pattern is used or whether or not he uses more than one roll..... or even if he's "rolling" if I don't watch it as well. And even while watching, I couldn't identify the roll he's using ... well, maybe with a lot of stop/go/rewind ... and several "calm down now Owen" breaks thrown in....
But, when he gets to explaining it, I think it does illustrate what you're telling me, though I still need an in-person teacher (?) to break it down into m-u-c-h smaller bits, and to answer questions.
He mentions "lots of different ways to fill in the holes.... " but then from what I see/hear the embellishments (?) take over and the roll(?) seems to be filling in the holes.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, but "... taking the listener on a journey ... and leading the singer and the band .... " has me: "Huh?!!? It's no wonder I have trouble with music." To each his/her own, I suppose.
Owen I get what your saying. Your not being disrespectful. It's a busy lesson there is a lot going on. It's a GCD chord progression. There are lots of licks, hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, appeggios, runs - walking up and down the neck, flatted 7th notes, fretting the 5th string, chokes, bends it may seem complex but when you know what the component elements are it all makes sense. It's like having a conversation. This is why Banjo Ben's lessons are so great. Because Ben studied under Alan at South Plains College along with some pretty great pickers like Ron Block. Ben breaks all this stuff down and explains in detail how to assemble all these notes. It does take a fair amount of study I must admit . But I agree with you. To each his/her own. I hope you find that In-person one-to-one teacher your looking for and finally discover all these magical sounds. You take care
There are lots of licks, hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, appeggios, runs - walking up and down the neck, flatted 7th notes, fretting the 5th string, chokes, bends it may seem complex but when you know what the component elements are it all makes sense.
But if you're trying to learn a basic, specific skill -- and I confess, I've lost track of what that specific skill currently is (Varying your right hand patterns? Incorporating the melody?) -- is it really best to try to do so with "lots of licks, hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, appeggios, runs - walking up and down the neck, flatted 7th notes, fretting the 5th string, chokes, bends" also thrown into the mix? Seems like that's trying to teach the nuances of advanced marathoning to someone who's learning to walk.
I was taught to articulate the chords and melody of a song, in proper rhythm, without any ornamentation. Learn to play the essential elements first: melody, harmony, rhythm. Learn that you can play those essential elements of a given song multiple ways. Then think about adding ornamentation -- slides and hammers to help accentuate the melody; licks to help punctuate pauses in the melody; runs to transition from one place on the neck to another, etc., etc. "The fancy bits," my teacher called them.
Not only does that make the basics more easily digestible, it also reinforces the purposes ornamentation serves. (You also learn that sometimes ornamentation comes at the expense of more melody.)
I cited Janet Davis' Splitting the Licks earlier in this thread. Let me do so again. Hers is a terrific learning model. First, melody over chords in a simple forward roll (Steps 1 and 2). Second, play the same melody over the same chords while varying your roll choices (Step 3). Finally, add licks and ornamentation (Steps 4 and 5). There's a reason why the slides, hammers, and pull-offs are in Step 5, not Step 1.
There are lots of licks, hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, appeggios, runs - walking up and down the neck, flatted 7th notes, fretting the 5th string, chokes, bends it may seem complex but when you know what the component elements are it all makes sense.
But if you're trying to learn a basic, specific skill -- and I confess, I've lost track of what that specific skill currently is (Varying your right hand patterns? Incorporating the melody?) -- is it really best to try to do so with "lots of licks, hammer-ons, pull-offs, slides, appeggios, runs - walking up and down the neck, flatted 7th notes, fretting the 5th string, chokes, bends" also thrown into the mix? Seems like that's trying to teach the nuances of advanced marathoning to someone who's learning to walk.
I was taught to articulate the chords and melody of a song, in proper rhythm, without any ornamentation. Learn to play the essential elements first: melody, harmony, rhythm. Learn that you can play those essential elements of a given song multiple ways. Then think about adding ornamentation -- slides and hammers to help accentuate the melody; licks to help punctuate pauses in the melody; runs to transition from one place on the neck to another, etc., etc. "The fancy bits," my teacher called them.
Not only does that make the basics more easily digestible, it also reinforces the purposes ornamentation serves. (You also learn that sometimes ornamentation comes at the expense of more melody.)
I cited Janet Davis' Splitting the Licks earlier in this thread. Let me do so again. Hers is a terrific learning model. First, melody over chords in a simple forward roll (Steps 1 and 2). Second, play the same melody over the same chords while varying your roll choices (Step 3). Finally, add licks and ornamentation (Steps 4 and 5). There's a reason why the slides, hammers, and pull-offs are in Step 5, not Step 1.
That was how Rodger Strung taught banjo Rich and I know from your many posts on this topic you remain loyal to his teachings. My respect for being an advocate for him. I did try to obtain his teaching method many years ago but not being a US resident I found it impossible to purchase his record.
Most teachers I have worked with start out with teaching basic roll patterns then quickly move to adding licks and embellishments to achieve that Bluegrass Sound. You will note in my earlier post in this thread to Jack Smith I referenced six roll patterns which were taught to me by a local banjo player I think they may have come from Pete Wernick's book which I didn't own at the time. That was the only foundation I had to work with before I started working from the Davis books DvDs and online instruction. I would add I made my best early progress from the Murphy Method DVDs. My personal experience has lead me to conclude from ALL the many teaching methods I have studied Banjo Ben ranks highest in my humble opinion. Others are free to judge for themselves. We all learn differently and teachers use all different approaches to achieve a similar goal.
True the video link of Alan Munde playing backup that I posted for Owen did have an array of "fancy bits" but if you listen you can hear the forward roll.
We could debate this topic for a lifetime on the merits of which teaching method is best. A rather pointless exercise I think. In the end it's the student that will end up deciding which method works best for them be it Roger Sprung, Jim Pankey, Banjo Ben Clark, Bill Evans, Pete Wernick the ton of other professional banjo teachers out there or the old man who lives next door.
You have your opinion and I have mine I am NOT out to try to prove that Banjo Ben is a better teacher than any teacher out there. But he is in my opinion the best teacher I know.
I am NOT looking for a response from you or anyone else. I think between us we have covered all the bases.
I've found the answer. Bluegrass and rolls are history. I've just bought a Tenor Banjo; much more melody and less wasted roll notes. HA HA
Some of us had nothing more to go on than Pete Seeger's book and slowing down Earl on the turntable. And of course our ears. Makes you wonder doesn't it?
I asked a famous banjo teacher once about being in a rut. He preached a lot about not being tab dependent. He responded by saying, This might sound like a contradiction but, I think you would benefit from getting some tabs of songs you want to learn and work on those. That was good advice. With each new song I learned something that became a part of my banjo vocabulary.
I asked a famous banjo teacher once about being in a rut. He preached a lot about not being tab dependent. He responded by saying, This might sound like a contradiction but, I think you would benefit from getting some tabs of songs you want to learn and work on those. That was good advice. With each new song I learned something that became a part of my banjo vocabulary.
Sounds like you had the right approach. Nothing wrong with tab, everyone has their own way of learning. Some are more visual.
Re. "we all learn differently," and "everyone has their own way" ... I hope that includes those that can be led to "water" etc., those that apparently should switch to yo-yo, and those responsible for making people wonder.
I don't know if this will make sense. I know others has observed that everyone learns a little differently. I initially used tab and learned the basic roll patterns from Mr Earl's book. After a while, when my speed suddenly kicked in I ditched the idea of rolls and trying to make them fit together. In other words, if I were to play 8 measures of a song and you asked me which rolls I used, I couldn't tell you. I just don't think of picking as a series of rolls.
Good analogy. I've got a granddaughter who's at the stage where she's still learning sounds and trying to string a few words together. Soon we won't be able to shut her up!
I think it's really the song that dictates the rolls when you really get the hang of Bluegrass....Jack
Yes, the song drives every choice we make. I'd break it down further to say that the roll we use is dictated by the current measure, phrase, or even the next melody note -- as in what note or notes can we pick on which strings with which fingers in the space before the next melody note, which we may have decided needs to be on a certain string and picked with a specific finger both of which therefore need to be available, which is exactly where choosing a roll comes into play.
As someone's playing progresses and evolves, they may find themselves not always using one of the four main rolls people learn, but broken or combination patterns, or one of the two dozen or so 4-note patterns identified by Ricky Mier in his *free* Modes of Rhythm video lesson that I believe I linked to earlier.
Exactly Ken. The problem though, as I see it, is the bulk of what you just said, goes right over the top, of the novice's head, who are expecting to find some magic formula. . Alas, Although it's staring them in the face, they are unable to recognize it.
Thanks Jd, for using the particularly appropriate word "unable." My sense of what's right/commendable/worthy might be screwy, but I figure that the relatively small accomplishments of anybody who's short on ability is something to be commended [or at the very least ignored] rather than made fun of. YMMV.
I'll admit that I know relatively few novice musicians, but so far as I know not a one of them is expecting some magic formula.
I see the desire/hope for a "magic formula" all the time in my students--and occasionally in myself, when I encounter a field in which I have no expertise. They want that one technique, that one concept that will unlock the whole enterprise.
I don't know that I agree with monstertone, though,or maybe I don't understand what he's referring to when he says "it's staring them in the face". If there is one thing that they need, in order to make everything work, it's something that is either so general as to offer little physical guidance (e.g., "play the melody and surround it with filler notes") or not as simple as what they're hoping for.
I'm not trying to slam monstertone--or anyone else here; I'd be interested in having a serious discussion about the psychology of beginners and their conceptual relationship to the music they're trying to play.
When I was giving lessons, a friend of mine did luthier work in the music store where I taught. Sometimes he would approach my students and ask them why they were taking lessons. After they were done with their explanation, he would suggest that instead of spending the time and money on lessons, it's easier to just purchase the "secret" from someone. Surprisingly, a good number of them took him seriously, and would ask him if he knew someone they could contact.
When I was giving lessons, a friend of mine did luthier work in the music store where I taught. Sometimes he would approach my students and ask them why they were taking lessons. After they were done with their explanation, he would suggest that instead of spending the time and money on lessons, it's easier to just purchase the "secret" from someone. Surprisingly, a good number of them took him seriously, and would ask him if he knew someone they could contact.
By any chance did he suggest any of these guys because they surely hold the "secret"
Learning an instrument is hard work. I quit more than once, it can be frustrating. It takes a lot of time and commitment and you really have to want to do it. There’s your secret.
Yep,, you REALLY HAVE TO WANT IT! I got obsessed with the banjo when I was in my early 20’s ate, drank, & slept banjo for about 5-6 years. I remember playing Earl’s Breakdown from the tab in his book at a snail’s pace for weeks & weeks on end,,, ah, the enthusiasm of youth…!
was intended to convey a lighthearted tone* ... same as it would if we were talking face-to-face.
