the groover - Posted - 02/06/2024:  08:05:41

when i learn banjo i start with the melody of tune but when i add a roll i lose the melody a ruin the tune im playing why and how do i overcome this

MoJoBanjo - Posted - 02/06/2024:  08:25:39

I went through the same struggle when learning. For me, I would listen to the Scruggs song I was learning (slowing it down if I could; dates me tremendously referencing a turntable). It will start to make sense and as you begin to master the song, you'll naturally pick up speed and find the tune neatly buried within. Then, the beauty of Scruggs is discovered.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 02/06/2024:  08:28:10

You're starting out right: the melody is what's needed. Now forget trying to put any certain type of roll with it, but put whatever fill will work. A partial roll, a slide into a melody note, even a rest (yes, banjos do have rests). Not all rolls will fit with melody, so only use the notes that will work and still keep the melody at the forefront.

Bridgebuster - Posted - 02/06/2024:  09:22:08

As Sherry suggests, use rests or otherwise alter the timing slightly. Something I've found that works, at least for me, is learn the melody, the as you start to add "fill" pick the melody with more force while easing up on the fill notes. Hope this makes sense; picking harder on the melody notes, easing up a bit on fill. Maybe even moving your right hand closer to the fretboard for a softer fill.

FenderFred - Posted - 02/06/2024:  10:58:37

quote:

---

Originally posted by the groover

when i learn banjo i start with the melody of tune but when i add a roll i lose the melody a ruin the tune im playing why and how do i overcome this

---

Hi Paul.

The biggest obstacle to learning to play three finger banjo is an understanding of how to incorporate the melody into roll patterns. Roll patterns are at the foundational level of Melodic & Scruggs Style picking.

Check out these videos they should give you a brief introduction to roll patterns. But you'll need to dig deeper/ study a lot more to learn how to incorporate melody, using licks and embellishments.

thisoldman - Posted - 02/06/2024:  12:56:27

I seem to recall that Janet Davis suggested that you put the melody notes (if you can) on the 1st, 4th and 7th notes (8 note measure), as that is when you pick with the thumb, which you "tend" to pick a little harder with. If you look at 2 arrangements, one with the melody notes only, and the other with the picking pattern/rolls, you may notice that the melody note doesn't always fall in the same place (maybe a 1/16 off one way or another) or maybe the melody note is missing altogether. Your brain sort of makes up the difference, hopefully.

All beginner arrangements are not equal. Some help you carry the melody notes very well...that's why Cripple Creek is a popular beginner tune. Some, on the other hand, do not and it is up to the player to adjust the timing and dynamics to make the tune sound better, if possible.

Your issue is likely one most beginners struggle with...I know I did. Most of the arrangements I started with were designed more for learning the picking the patterns than they were for being really following the melody.. But as I got beyond the basics, the tunes I started learning sounded more like I thought they were supposed to sound like.

I've grown to appreciate melodic style arrangements, as they are melody note driven and tend to sound good even when not played up the tempo. For example, I have Eddie Collins' book on fiddle tunes for bluegrass banjo. His "easy" arrangements of the tunes he chose have lots of quarter notes and sound like they are supposed to even at a moderate tempo. My favorite music is by Tony Ellis. Most of his arrangements are are melody note driven, and many are meant to convey a feeling, so the tempo can range from slow to pretty brisk.

monstertone - Posted - 02/06/2024:  13:09:11

Neither music notation nor tablature distinguishes melody from fill. It is next to impossible to learn a song/tune you've never heard. And it cannot come out through your fingers without first being firmly lodged in your brain!

Once I had the Scruggs book & began collecting the LP albums suggested, I at least had reference points, keys to closed doors. You just have to slow it down, pick it apart, line by line, lick by lick if necessary, listen, pause, rewind, try, listen, pause, rewind, try, listen, pause, rewind, try, repeatedly playing this stuff over & over & over, until the circuits between your ears begin connecting, the light bulb is on, & you're getting it right. There are "tools" to lighten the load but, there is no easy way. You have to work at it.......Worked for me.

Edited by - monstertone on 02/06/2024 14:02:46

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/06/2024:  16:37:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by the groover

when i learn banjo i start with the melody of tune but when i add a roll i lose the melody a ruin the tune im playing why and how do i overcome this

---

Read Jack Hatfield's  banjo method book 1. He will show you how to put the rolls and melody together.

ken

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/06/2024:  21:46:52

Do what the late great Roger Sprung taught all of his students as the “way in” to learning a new song. It’s an exceedingly simple roll that lets you incorporate the melody of a tune (on the 1st, 4th, and 7th notes, as mentioned above, over the proper chords). 

The roll — which he dubbed the “Incomplete Forward Roll” (because it’s only 7 notes long, with a rest in the place of the final note) — is simple because you keep your thumb on the 5th string and your middle finger on the 1st string. Your index finger (the one that plays those 1st, 4th, and 7th notes) is the only one that moves around, to the melody notes on the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th strings. (In the key of G, that’s where most will be, or can be shifted to.)

The roll is played IM TIM TI(rest), IM TIM TI(rest)… So instead of 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-&, you play only 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-rest, 1-&-2-&-3-&-4-rest, etc.

However, since Roger believed in “pairing” your notes to get a true bluegrass rhythm, you more accurately play: 1–&2–&3–&4 (rest) 1–&2–&3–&4 (rest) … (Think of a heartbeat: lubDUB, lubDUB ...)

I wrote an extensive blog post about this roll many years ago: Roger Sprung's "Incomplete Forward Roll" As you see from a comment posted there by a BHO member, it was very helpful. Unfortunately, however, the post also linked to some illustrations (audio and visual) from Roger’s old website, which no longer exists. 

But remember: it’s a starting place, a way to get you going. Ultimately, you’ll use many different patterns and techniques to connect the melody. But for one searching for that “way in,” it’s a great way. 

chuckv97 - Posted - 02/06/2024:  22:13:47

With all due respect, I’m not sure I’d urge a beginner to do a forward roll with the index playing the 4th string, following with the middle playing the 1st string, which was a toughie, for me anyway… maybe not for others. (remember “Down the Road” from Earl’s book?)

Laurence Diehl - Posted - 02/07/2024:  13:20:57

While we’re talking rolls I’ve often found TIMI to be useful, as it brings the thumb back around for the downbeat.
But as you progress you’ll forget about rolls most of the time and just concentrate on timing, tone and how best to represent the melody.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 02/08/2024:  06:20:34

Beginners often look for a magic bullet, one single thing--a technique, a principle, a right-hand pattern--that will make it all work. But there isn't one.

Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 02/08/2024 06:20:56

phb - Posted - 02/08/2024:  08:12:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by the groover

when i learn banjo i start with the melody of tune but when i add a roll i lose the melody a ruin the tune im playing why and how do i overcome this

---

The cruel answer is: practice, lots of it. But perhaps it is comforting to know that you are doing exactly the right thing! You will surely want to learn other people's arrangements (which aren't anything else but the result of their quest to turn the melody into a banjo-way of playing it) and you will learn a lot from those but it looks like you didn't fall into the trap like so many and took those arrangements as some sort of gospel while still wondering where they came from (other than the obvious answer, from one of the recognised great players of the genre) and how to come up with one for a song that wasn't played by one of the greats.

If the melody note seems to be a short note, chances are that you can add one filler note available on one of the other two fingers, if it is a longer note, you will likely add two or three filler notes. Playing the same note twice on two adjacent string as with a 2-4 slide (usually really just a 2-3 slide) on the 3rd string and an open 2nd string is a way to underline that note as a melody note as compared to filler notes (often 5th string and open 1st string). Slides and hammer-ons/pull-offs often indicate melodic movement upwards or downwards depending on the direction of the embellishment.

The process can be very rewarding when you eventually come up with your own way of playing a melody and people do recognise the melody. And then it is all the result of your creativity. I know players with great technique that can't play anything that wasn't played by Scruggs, Crowe, Keith... And if was played by one of them, they will play it exactly like they did. Simply because they can't come up with a way of playing a song themselves.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 02/08/2024:  09:30:43

Earl Scruggs didn’t know what a roll was till Bill Keith told him.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 02/08/2024:  09:50:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall

Earl Scruggs didn’t know what a roll was till Bill Keith told him.

---

Rick,

Yes sir. As you all know,Jack Hatfield  is one of the greatest banjo teachers and authors. His Scruggs Corner in Banjo Newsletter was foundational and he met many times with Earl and talked to him. Here is some correspondance I had with him that backs up what you say:

"Yes. It is very simple: Earl was trying to render a melody using the thumb on the melody notes as often as possible while maintaining a steady stream of eighth notes and not repeating a digit on consecutive eighth notes. These three parameters resulted in the four or five basic rolls he created. IMO, he never even conceptualized the rolls as static building blocks of his style until others such as Bill Keith attempted to put it down on paper (tab) and coined the term “roll”.  By then it was already innate with Earl. He just tried to play the melody with the stronger thumb, and the signature licks and finger sequences (rolls) that resulted became his vocabulary (“I call it his Lick-cabulary”) unconsciously. "

Old Hickory - Posted - 02/12/2024:  14:08:31

So to unpack more from what Jack Hatfield wrote about Earl's development of rolls (shared by Ken above) while Earl eventually created the foundational rolls on which he built his technique, his objective was not to create roll patterns that he could endlessly string together or to apply to every musical situation. What Earl was looking most immediately to accomplish was to fill the space in between melody notes with the right combination of filler notes and unplayed counts, choosing strings and fingers in such a way that the next melody note was accessible on a beat and string he could pick with the best finger available -- usually, but not always, the thumb.

He was not looking to fit melodies into rolls. He was creating rolls that allowed him to wrap notes around melodies, which to Earl always came first.

Sure, everyone needs to learn to play rolls. Not so we can force melodies into them, but so we can most efficiently pick melodies and the harmonizing notes that surround them.

SimonSlick - Posted - 02/12/2024:  14:44:50

The best pickers are the ones who do more picking and less analyzing.

dlm7507 - Posted - 02/13/2024:  15:51:29

The name is a turnoff but Wayne Erbsen's "Bluegrass Banjo for the Complete Ignoramus" and its "Companion" book might be just what you are looking for. I have a shamefully large number of books with tab for finished arrangements. I should throw them in the trash.

He teaches a number of tunes in their barebones unembellished version for you to learn to play without needing to look in the book. He also as an almost separate subject teaches rolls, starting with "short rolls" and then "long rolls which are the more syncopated Scruggs-Ish roles.

For each tune he has you add rolls, starting with the simple pinch. There are no finished tabs with rolls. You add the rolls you learn progressively while learning to not lose the basic melody that you know how to play. That means, don't try to play any just like Earl arrangements any time soon.

Nothing in the books require hammer-on or pull-off 1/16th notes. Basic 1/8th note songs.

The companion book has tunes from the basic book, and some more. Drills for practicing all of the rolls and work sheets for you to pencil in the tab for the basic tune you are working on and then add various rolls of your choosing. It is a walk before you run Scruggs high hurdles and highly oriented toward setting yourself free of the music stand. There are sound files for all of it.

I think it is well suited toward what you want to do, but it's just my opinion and I'm nobody special. You might want to give it a look. Very straightforward. I'm not on his payroll.

thisoldman - Posted - 02/13/2024:  16:21:51

Philipp makes a good point. Don't be afraid of changing the arrangement if it suits you. I remember shortly after I switched over to picking Scruggs style I was playing through a song and one measure seemed to be lacking, so I re-wrote it. A very liberating experience. When I play those Tony Ellis tunes, I start trying to play as written, but if the tune was designed to elicit some feeling or emotion, I end up playing it the way I feel it, and not exactly the way it was written. After all, the tab was someone's attempt at putting the way Tony played it down on paper .

eagleisland - Posted - 02/14/2024:  10:29:34

Welcome to the Hangout, Groover.

As others have alluded to: do not confuse rolls with roll PATTERNS.

The following are rolls:

T-I-M
M-I-T
T-I-T-M

The following are not. They're roll PATTERNS:

T-I-M-T-I-M-T-I
M-I-T-M-I-TM-T
T-I-M-T-M-I-T-M

The rolls themselves are simple and adaptable. All of the common roll patterns involve those movements, plus a few more (such as pinches, allowing space for a longer note, etc.).

It's been pointed out that Earl didn't know from rolls. His focus was melody, and using the rolls to fill in the spaces. He used certain moves frequently enough that they became codified as "rolls," which is inaccurate.

From my perspective, the emphasis on roll patterns in so many beginner materials is problematic; among other things, it often leads to the assumption that there's a roll pattern to solve every musical equation. There isn't. I don't ask my students to practice roll patterns - unless there's a specific issue I'm trying to address.

Find the melody. Use the other fingers to create a pleasing sound until the next melody note comes along.

Rich Weill - Posted - 02/14/2024:  14:53:35

I’m not trying to start a debate with the anti-roll lobby, but I do wish to point out that, of all essential banjo skills, the least dispensable one is: good rhythm. You can omit or strike wrong melody notes and few will notice. You can grab the wrong chord, and get away with it. But go out of rhythm, and everyone’s ears will perk up.

Good rhythm is more than good timing. A metronome has good timing. A metronome has no rhythm, at least none evoking an emotional response. Rhythm is timing plus flow, i.e., recurring downbeats at regular intervals, a pulse, a forward driving motion. Developing good rhythm is vital.

Whether we like it or not, and excepting waltzes, banjo rhythm doesn't come in three-note segments. Eight eighth-notes is the standard banjo measure. Eight half-beats. You can vary that, converting eighth-notes into quarter-notes -- or divide an eighth-note in half with hammers, pull-offs, etc. -- but the distance to the beginning of the next measure (where the rhythm restarts) remains the same.

Learning, practicing, and using measure-length rolls (or two-measure rolls even) builds and ingrains good rhythm skills. There are enough one- or two-measure finger patterns (with exponentially more string patterns) that you needn't restrict your note selection and creativity while using them. And after a while, you forget these patterns -- they've seeped into your subconscious -- and simply connect the melody by habit. But the good rhythm you've acquired never leaves you.

Can you develop good rhythm without using rolls? Sure, anything's possible. But why not use the best tools for the job. 

I know all about Bill Palmer. And maybe Earl didn't use that word, or even think that way. But, according to Earl, Bill Keith did, and he was no slouch. Plus, I've yet to read a banjo instruction book that doesn't teach rolls. 

O.D. - Posted - 02/15/2024:  07:14:57

Excellent post by Rich Weil
Rhythm is a component not much talked about as of late.
And to add to what he said I'll add that the finger motions of rolls also occur in many standard licks in conjunction with the left hand techniques
Often in more than 3 note increments.

O.D. - Posted - 02/15/2024:  07:20:16

Swing,or bounce ha ha
If you know,you know.

Ev