Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/395399
corcoran - Posted - 01/26/2024: 16:16:10
Does anybody know who came up with the OJC lick — the one where the melody notes are largely played on the first string while rhythm notes are on the second and fifth strings? I first heard it played by Eric Weissberg on the “New Dimensions” album in 1963, and then shortly thereafter by Bill Keith on Billy Baker’s album. The lick was very popular in the 1960s and 1970s, and it is still used by many pickers more sparingly. Years ago I asked Bill Keith about whether he came up with the lick, and he said no, it was not his. Was it Weissberg’s? I don’t think I heard Sonny play it, or Earl of course, or Bill Emerson. J. D. Crowe played a version of it with pinches and pull-offs on the first string, but that was years after the original lick appeared. So my question: who came up with it originally?
Tractor1 - Posted - 01/27/2024: 04:25:37
I was always amazed with JD Crowe's numerous licks in that position--
RB3 - Posted - 01/27/2024: 09:08:39
Michael,
I took a look at your tablature for Old Joe Clark in the BHO archive. Based upon your description, I presume that you're referring to the 1-2-1-5 right hand sequence that is used in the second half of the second, fourth and sixth measures of the first part of the song.
If that is the lick you're referring to, there's another discussion about that right hand sequence that was recently initiated by chuckv97. Below is a link to that discussion.
Osborne/Dillard Roll
The version of the Old Joe Clark that I learned back in the late Sixties is almost identical to the version in your tablature. The only difference is that I learned it with a 3-2 pull-off on the first string at the beginning of the lick. None of the old instruction books I have has such a tablature for the song, so I must have learned it by trading licks with another player.
In the mid-Seventies, I spent a lot of time watching J.D. at the Red Slipper Lounge in Lexington, Ky. He played John Hardy and Salt Creek at most every performance because they were instrumental showpieces for him and Tony Rice. For both songs, he had an almost limitless assortment of licks with left hand embellishments that he played on the fist string at the second and third frets, and the 1-2-1-5 sequence is certainly one of them. All of us who got to watch him were desperate to figure what he was doing. I think most folks attribute the 1-2-1-5 sequence to Doug Dillard or Sonny Osborne, but it may have come from J.D. Interestingly, I can't remember ever hearing him play Old Joe Clark.
monstertone - Posted - 01/27/2024: 10:52:06
I suspect that lick predates Bluegrass. It wouldn't surprise me to find it goes even further back than Old-Time music. If I really wanted to know, I'd start with the title, Old Joe Clark, who wrote it & when, then work forward from there. FWIW: Old Joe Clark is in Mixolodian mode.
Tractor1 - Posted - 01/27/2024: 11:55:12
yep I saw JD and tony at holiday inn a time or to--and pretty much said that up stairs-that he played variations--his John Hardy kick-off put it to good use--I never could come up with one to match it
Another important thing is the juggling of the 5th d 6th e flatted 7--many genres visit this
corcoran - Posted - 01/27/2024: 14:16:52
quote:
Originally posted by RB3
Michael,
I took a look at your tablature for Old Joe Clark in the BHO archive. Based upon your description, I presume that you're referring to the 1-2-1-5 right hand sequence that is used in the second half of the second, fourth and sixth measures of the first part of the song.
If that is the lick you're referring to, there's another discussion about that right hand sequence that was recently initiated by chuckv97. Below is a link to that discussion.
<snip>
Wayne, I am talking about the lick in measures 2, 4, and 6 of Part A, where the picking sequence is 5-2-1-5-1-2-1-5 -- the measures that you correctly identify. It is the sequence of notes that also works well as a D to G turnaround. I seem to remember Doug Dillard playing this lick in the early 60s, same time as Keith and Weissberg, and he may well have been the originator of it. He had a very distinctive and creative style, and he sure influenced my playing. So let's adopt as a working hypothesis the notion that it is a Dillard lick, unless and until somebody comes up with better information.
Tractor1 - Posted - 01/27/2024: 15:32:10
Not that I find you all wrong--just different--but I see an accidental use of the dillard thing--in a portion of what I call the old joe clark lick--which covers --''old joe clark-the preachers son"I think the whole 2 measures make up the signature Joe Clark lick--
Eddy Adcock had a skit where he showed how it changed Old Joe Clark-when adding the 3rrd finger was invented--where he would end up waving his middle finger at the audience-
but yes Doug deserves a good as they get card and made that lick famous using it best and most
Weisberg was ballistic on Old Joe Clark --I might dig it up--and get depressed ha ha
corcoran - Posted - 01/28/2024: 06:59:52
I just gave a listen to the first album by the Dillards, Back Porch Bluegrass, released in 1964. The first track is “Old Joseph,” a sparky version of OJC. Unfortunately Doug plays only the B part of the tune; so it provides no definitive information about his potential crafting of the lick. However, on several other tracks on the album Doug plays the OJC lick as a D to G turnaround, or the equivalent in the appropriate key. It is likely that Doug Dillard’s use of the OJC lick as a turnaround was the first time I heard it employed that way — hence, credit to Doug Dillard. A contemporaneous album by Earl Taylor (Bluegrass Taylor Made, apparently also released in 1964) featured banjo players Walter Hensley and Vernon McIntyre Jr., and they both made use of the OJC lick as a turnaround. So by the mid-1960s the OJC lick evidently had entered the collective consciousness, such as it is, of bluegrass banjo pickers.
chuckv97 - Posted - 01/30/2024: 23:57:04
I was thinking where I’d seen that roll in tab somewhere years ago, and it so happened I had the John Burke book “Old Time Fiddle Tunes for Banjo", which was for CH players. But here’s a couple of examples; I’m wondering now if Doug or Sonny or whoever took a cue from CH players and adapted it for 3-finger style.
Edited by - chuckv97 on 01/30/2024 23:57:47
phb - Posted - 01/31/2024: 02:30:55
Since those two pieces are CH and use alternate tunings, wouldn't they both look and sound different from what then gets played in 3-finger style? If so, I think this would make it unlikely a 3-finger-player adapted them from CH playing. On the other hand both CH players as well as BG players are tasked with the same task: get the banjo to somehow play the fiddle melody. It would not be surprising that they come up with similar solutions.
