I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
And further to that, HOW are you trying to learn? Are you working with a teacher, either in person or online? Or are you just trying to muddle through with whatever scraps you can find on the Web?
I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
Ask a well reviewed banjo teacher. If you already have a teacher, ask another teacher, a well respected banjo player or even a guitar player who plays similar music.
I always recommend recording yourself at the beginning of the month. DO NOT listen to it. At the end of the month, record yourself playing the same thing. Then listen to them back-to-back.
The act of playing can often interfere with the brain's ability to accurately assess what it's hearing. That's why it's important to listen to recordings of your playing on a regular basis. Listening to a recording of your playing will allow you to hear things you did not hear when you were involved in the act of playing.
Write down three goals regarding areas in your playing you know that you need to improve on. Write down what you will do to improve in that area and write down a date by which you will have reached the goal, or at least progressed toward it. Do that and every 4 weeks check yourself against your keeping the goals. If you are following your action plans and they were good plans, then you should be meeting your goals, and your playing should improve. You have to focus your learning. There is a lot to learn, and you can't learn it all at one time. Break it down into manageable bits and pieces and don't move onto something else until you have acquired proficiency in that area.
Hi I whole-heartedly endorse Bobby Elliott's suggestion. Set yourself some realistic, attainable goals for aspects of your playing you wish to improve by , say, 4 weeks' time. Write them down, and work for 4 weeks to achieve them. At that time, get out the paper you wrote them on and reflect on how well you've done. Repeat the whole process with more (equally realistic and achievable, but slightly more demanding) goals. Be prepared to continue this maybe for a lifetime!
I would double down on Ira’s comment. But behind that is What inspires you? You don’t just learn banjo for something to do, there must be some music you’re hearing that you have a burning desire to learn.
I agree with You and Ira too. Some people just don't know what they want or how much work it really takes to be really good at playing the Banjo or, any instrument....Jack
I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
Do you enjoy practicing? Do you take any pride in the work, does it mean anything to you? Are you having fun being a part of, and making, banjo music even at your level what ever it is? Yes answers might be all you need to know.
I would double down on Ira’s comment. But behind that is What inspires you? You don’t just learn banjo for something to do, there must be some music you’re hearing that you have a burning desire to learn.
So much excellent feedback! I thank you all and I truly appreciate it!! I'd like to try to respond to everyone as best I can. I'm going to focus on the comments that really resonated with me.
My goals: I struggle with that. I concede the importance of having them. For now, I want to be able to play well. I play for myself. No one else has ever heard me play with the exception of my next door neighbor who came out one evening while I was playing on the back porch.
I'm self teaching, working from two beginner books (Hohwald, Nickerson), and Youtube. I've been through Jim Pankey's 10 video series and Eli Gilbert's 30 Days of Banjo.
I enjoy practicing if I feel like I'm making progress. Otherwise I feel discouraged. My progress: I think that is the crux of my angst: how to quantify. To date, I can "play" the following "tunes" from memory: Cripple Creek (Pankey)(about 8 bars I think, 80bpm max); Banjo in the Hollow (Pankey)(12 bars, 80bpm max); Bile Dem Cabbage Down (Gilbert)(8 bars, 80bpm max); Wagon Wheel (Pankey)(17 bars, 80bpm max); Man of Constant Sorrow (Pankey)(20 bars, about 60bpm max); Shady Grove in Dm (Pankey)(10 bars, about 70bpm max); Old Man at the Mill (Pankey)(9 bars, about 40bpm max). I know a couple of licks.
I would love to have a teacher. However, I'm retired and living on a fixed income. There is just no money for that. I live in a banjo vacuum area. On "Find a Teacher" there are none within 50 miles.
I learned an important lesson about practice just about 24 hours ago: never sit down to practice first thing in the morning before you've finished your first cup of coffee, especially if you only got about 2 hours sleep.
From your list of songs, I would add this to the other post I wrote. Cut back on the number of songs you are working on. Pick 2 - 3 and learn those well. The techniques, licks, etc.in those songs will enable you to learn those other songs when you are ready for them and much more quickly. I can't imagine any banjo teacher asking a student to learn that number of songs at the same time. Learn some licks, practice rolls working on clean tone, striking the strings clearly, even volume, and speed. I think you have too much going on as far as trying to memorize all those songs. Just my opinion.
BobbyE - Thanks for your reply. Btw, I just noticed you appear to be in Dothan, AL. My wife has deep roots in Dothan and the surrounding area. It's a beautiful place. We used to visit there very often. She was born in Enterprise.
Have you ever played with anyone else? That's usually a goal for most people who take up banjo, and it requires its own set of skills, which are not exactly the same as the skills it takes to play this or that tune.
I almost got discouraged enough to stop playing the banjo when I didn't have people to play with. Now I have new friends and, when we meet, we play music together. When I realised that this is what banjo playing and the whole bluegrass culture really is about, I also found that I needed a completely different skill set than just moving fingers to the right places on the instrument in time. In my case the outcome was that I was even more frustrated because I didn't possess any of those skills but I have been stubborn enough to stick with the instrument anyway.
Have you ever played with anyone else? That's usually a goal for most people who take up banjo, and it requires its own set of skills, which are not exactly the same as the skills it takes to play this or that tune.
Never. I play to myself and my two dogs (they leave the room if I play my resonator). I'm pretty sure my neighbor overheard me one evening. I believe I'm more of a this tune or that student.
When I start feeling like i'm hitting a wall in my playing I often find its best to just set the instrument down for a week or so until I come back with a more solid game plan of what I hope to improve on. Oddly enough it will usually feel like my playing has improved after the short break.
The reason to assess progress is to assess "am I actually making progress" and "am I making progress at a reasonable pace considering the amount of time I'm putting in. "
- You've acquired a couple of banjos. This takes initiative for someone with no musical background.
- You are able to learn productively from available sources - books and videos.
- You have learned, memorized, and can play at a steady tempo 7 tunes in 9 months.
- You can work with a metronome.
In 9 months, with no musical background, that's pretty darned good.
So your progress is in the right direction -- tunes and timing. Therefore, that progress can be assessed -- learning more tunes and adding moderate speed.
There are other aspects of progress that you haven't tackled yet, but are important to overall "progress" on the instrument. They are (a) playing music with others and (b) playing backup, which eventually becomes part of (a).
Once you start playing with other musicians you'll have so much fun and learn so many things so fast that measuring progress won't be needed.
Get out there and find somebody to pick with, brother, even a reformed rock guitarist! You're doing great for 9 months. Keep going.
For a first timer (no prior musical instrument exposure or ability) I think you're doing pretty good! I am one of those annoying people who pick up an instrument and can start to play it in a matter of days or less. Even then road blocks are experienced. Just keep at it, and find folks to pick with. THats a biggie!
So much excellent feedback! I thank you all and I truly appreciate it!! I'd like to try to respond to everyone as best I can. I'm going to focus on the comments that really resonated with me.
My goals: I struggle with that. I concede the importance of having them. For now, I want to be able to play well. I play for myself. No one else has ever heard me play with the exception of my next door neighbor who came out one evening while I was playing on the back porch.
I'm self teaching, working from two beginner books (Hohwald, Nickerson), and Youtube. I've been through Jim Pankey's 10 video series and Eli Gilbert's 30 Days of Banjo.
I enjoy practicing if I feel like I'm making progress. Otherwise I feel discouraged.
My progress: I think that is the crux of my angst: how to quantify. To date, I can "play" the following "tunes" from memory:
Cripple Creek (Pankey)(about 8 bars I think, 80bpm max);
Banjo in the Hollow (Pankey)(12 bars, 80bpm max);
Bile Dem Cabbage Down (Gilbert)(8 bars, 80bpm max);
Wagon Wheel (Pankey)(17 bars, 80bpm max);
Man of Constant Sorrow (Pankey)(20 bars, about 60bpm max);
Shady Grove in Dm (Pankey)(10 bars, about 70bpm max);
Old Man at the Mill (Pankey)(9 bars, about 40bpm max).
I know a couple of licks.
I would love to have a teacher. However, I'm retired and living on a fixed income. There is just no money for that.
I live in a banjo vacuum area. On "Find a Teacher" there are none within 50 miles.
I learned an important lesson about practice just about 24 hours ago: never sit down to practice first thing in the morning before you've finished your first cup of coffee, especially if you only got about 2 hours sleep.
I'm sure I just need to work harder.
Again, thanks everyone.
Hi Rick, you appear to be making excellent progress. You can push yourself too hard and loose focus so easily, so don't be afraid to take a day off. I didn't take up the banjo till I was well into my 60's, Geoff Hohwald was one of my early mentors with his Watch and Learn Lessons. I am a remote learner too, no proper banjo teachers within 200 miles. So I have had to manage my studies from Books, DVD's & Online Courses. Banjo Ben's approach really helped me gain self confidence, my skill levels rapidly improved, and the help and support I received from Ben's Gold Pick Members Forum was amazing. You can sign up for a FREE Silver Pick Membership have access to three FULL lessons and a bunch of other free lessons without obligation or pressure to purchase a paid Gold Pick membership. Wishing you well on your banjo journey.
For many folks, playing banjo is mostly about wasting time. Especially if you ask their spouse or family; much more important things they could or should be doing.
How does one go about evaluating their progress?
There isn't any universal. Can evaluate current status; what progress have made so far. Might evaluate that against defined goals.
Evaluation of progress might be more about against expectations... and/or maybe comparison to others.
Similar to, as many beginners want... along the lines of "how long will it take to learn to play the banjo" - imagine existence of universal comparison progress chart... generally based on a calendar. By extension creates expectations about future, some sense of completion; often with focus on failure - "if by x date; that checklist or report card will determine whether they will fail; should quit" (i.e. wasting their time trying to learn they will never be able to).
It's easy enough to create expectations based on made up checklist of skills and abilities along some calendar timeline. Can use others checklists; as some teachers will provide, maybe cookie cutter chart or comparison bell curve idea. IMO they are largely arbitrary, meaningless (not useful predictors of future). Too many individual variables, and often leaves out or ignores a lot of aspects; sometime most important ones.
Are you having fun being a part
Is good example of what's left out. I tend to think of that evaluation in the present. Having fun with what you can and are doing now... not so much on what can't do, or some future. Part of that for many is simply find process and learning as enjoyable; again, not just based in context of future.
Expectations, can lead to disappointment or lack of having fun. Some are not particularly pragmatic... so might be waste of time, if important to the person,
Check out BANJO BEN CLARK.COM. Previous post suggested you check out this guy. His course is very structured and self-paced learning style complete with progress evaluation. Suggest becoming a Gold Pick Member ASAP. You will not be disappointed for sure.
Everyone experiences plateaus where, no matter how hard you try, it seems progress has come to a screeching halt. For starters, I would recommend side stepping Shady Grove & Old Man at the Mill, which are in modal keys & sound weird to the uneducated ear. You can always come back to them later.
I would also encourage a review of this post, taking note of the number of comments on playing with others, while keeping in mind it takes more than banjo to make Bluegrass music. Playing with other musician(s), even another beginner, offers not only instant feed back, it also includes a level of gratification unequaled by other methods!
I don't remember how I found Hubert, but it was long before the internet. Hubert lived just down the street. Although Hubert played country style guitar, he was willing to put up with me playing BG banjo. Which, btw, is kinda like trying to fit a square peg in a round hole, but we kept at it. Hubert threw a house party one night, inviting relatives, & a few other musicians, including yours truly.
Hubert's dad also played guitar, Bluegrass style, on a big ole Dreadnought guitar, & he was good! The fiddler was Bob Smith, who ripped off Listen to the Mocking Bird & Orange Blossom Special as easy as falling off a log. I had to ask what key OBS was in. (Starts in E & resolves to A) Those guys took me under their wings like I was one of their own. Shortly thereafter, my banjo acquired a capo & spikes, I discontinued formal lessons, & never looked back.
I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
To me the key to growth in playing ability is tied to your growth in love for the music you're trying to play. I assume you're trying to learn bluegrass banjo, but you said you have "only slight exposure" to it. That needs to change. Listen to bluegrass with the banjo in the case. Listen in the car. Listen on your headphones while you jog or walk. Immerse yourself in it. That's a good way to gain the inspiration it takes to make it through the initial "chopsticks" stage where you are doing exercises to learn left and right-hand technique.
Get a solid banjo player to record the basic roll patterns for you in a repetition of about 1,000 at various speeds. Play along with the recordings until you can keep up without having to focus too much on individual notes. Practice changing chords (C, D7, D, F. Em. E, etc.) in the first five frets until you can play each chord cleanly and not take more than a second changing from one to another.
These are the "chopsticks" of banjo playing. If you want to really play intelligible music you must be able to do these things. Rolls and chords. Then songs.
Same boat. Started 2 1/2 years ago. Have played guitar for 49 years, and the first year was unlearning guitar habits. I have two messed up thumbs, so drop thumb is difficult, and I spend a lot of time with my thumb working the 5th string- and a modified three finger style. No picks.
At the end of the day, are you having fun? At 63, I play for my own enjoyment.
I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
To me the key to growth in playing ability is tied to your growth in love for the music you're trying to play. I assume you're trying to learn bluegrass banjo, but you said you have "only slight exposure" to it. That needs to change. Listen to bluegrass with the banjo in the case. Listen in the car. Listen on your headphones while you jog or walk. Immerse yourself in it. That's a good way to gain the inspiration it takes to make it through the initial "chopsticks" stage where you are doing exercises to learn left and right-hand technique.
Get a solid banjo player to record the basic roll patterns for you in a repetition of about 1,000 at various speeds. Play along with the recordings until you can keep up without having to focus too much on individual notes. Practice changing chords (C, D7, D, F. Em. E, etc.) in the first five frets until you can play each chord cleanly and not take more than a second changing from one to another.
These are the "chopsticks" of banjo playing. If you want to really play intelligible music you must be able to do these things. Rolls and chords. Then songs.
Jim,
Good to hear from you again. Seems like it has been a good while.
For me....Banjo is like SEX.... You don't need to be good at it to have FUN!
Many of us I think at some point feel/felt- "Hey I've been at this damn thing for 8 months, How come I don't sound like Earl!?"
Short answer- My banjo teacher tells me to measure success in years, not weeks or months.
I came to the banjo exactly the say way as you Rick, no instrument experience, Jim Pankey 10 lessons etc. When about 12-15 months into it- BOOM, Brick Wall! all the darn books and videos just weren't helping me. but I too live in bit of a banjo desert,..... SO I found weekly (one hour) lessons with a Pro via ZOOM....
Its now been 4 years since the beginning of Pankeys 10 lessons, and about 28-30 months of weekly lessons. I know this: I am better today than I was 12-24 months ago and I currently am not as good as I will be one year from now!
I need the immediate coaching and feedback that a in person lesson gives me- just like in college- I'm a go to the lecture guy more than I am a 'read the book' guy.
So stay with it Rick, and perhaps with your fixed income, you can save up a few bucks, and along with maybe a loved one/family member can gift you with the purchase of a lesson or two on your birthday or Christmas. And take a few lessons to help you maybe break some bad habits and to help get you going in a renewed 'back to basics and fundamentals' path of better learning and more fun!
I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
To me the key to growth in playing ability is tied to your growth in love for the music you're trying to play. I assume you're trying to learn bluegrass banjo, but you said you have "only slight exposure" to it. That needs to change. Listen to bluegrass with the banjo in the case. Listen in the car. Listen on your headphones while you jog or walk. Immerse yourself in it. That's a good way to gain the inspiration it takes to make it through the initial "chopsticks" stage where you are doing exercises to learn left and right-hand technique.
Get a solid banjo player to record the basic roll patterns for you in a repetition of about 1,000 at various speeds. Play along with the recordings until you can keep up without having to focus too much on individual notes. Practice changing chords (C, D7, D, F. Em. E, etc.) in the first five frets until you can play each chord cleanly and not take more than a second changing from one to another.
These are the "chopsticks" of banjo playing. If you want to really play intelligible music you must be able to do these things. Rolls and chords. Then songs.
Jim,
Good to hear from you again. Seems like it has been a good while.
ken
Thanks Ken! It has been way too long. I didn't think anyone would even remember me here. It's good to see that there are many of the folks I remember (like you) still here and contributing substantive posts. I appreciate the warm welcome.
I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
Rick, I'll echo what others have said; if you've had no previous music experience and only slight exposure to bluegrass music, then you're doing just fine for nine months in. I have a suggestion. If you haven't already, start listening to a lot of the kind of music you want to play. Get it your head. Know songs well enough to hum them or sing them, if there are words involved. It's difficult to learn a song or make much progress, it you don't know the music deep down. It can be done, of course, but it's a lot easier if its already there inside you.
It sounds to me like you're just wandering in the woods with no direction. It appears to me you are learning songs but don't know what to do with them. I'm brand new to banjo but I've been playing bluegrass guitar for quite a while so I'm coming from that angle. Those are all good bluegrass songs that you are playing, but without a guitar, a mandolin, a fiddle and a bass, and maybe a dobro, you dont have bluegrass. So I'm thinking that perhaps some context might help see where you are at. I suggest that if you don't want to find some bluegrass jam to play that you find some bluegrass backing tracks that you can play along with and see where you are at.
For me....Banjo is like SEX.... You don't need to be good at it to have FUN!
My idea for a T-shirt: A banjo lying on the floor, with various articles of male and female clothing strewn about, and the caption, "SEX--the most fun you can have without finger picks."
I've been playing for about 9 months now, and I'm beginning to feel like I'm wasting my time. No previous music/instrument experience of any kind, and only slight exposure to Bluegrass music. How does one go about evaluating their progress?
Rick, Find a place to jam. When you become comfortable with playing with others, you will improve noticeably. Steve B.
I usually record too. Audio or video. I can usually see/hear an improvement daily, but to see drastic change I'll wait a month and compare videos/audio. This comparison gives me a lot of encouragement and incentive to continue moving forward. Another thing that helps me is the good ol' metronome. Maintaining the correct tempo throughout the tune is very important. The metronome can be annoying at first but that will show me progress as I speed up the tempo. It also deters sloppiness resulting in a tune sounding so much cleaner/nicer - this also is a huge encouragement to me.
"I've been playing for X months/years, lessons for Y months/years. Why don't I sound like a bluegrass banjo player?"
Short answer: Insanity is repeating the same things over & over again, and expecting different results.
To play Bluegrass (any BG instrument) you have to listen to Bluegrass every chance you get. Record your favorite stuff, put it on portable medium, listen to it through earbuds, constantly!
No excuses. Find a pickn' buddy. They are out there, but like you, they don't know anyone is looking for them. Find a pickn' buddy! Nothing else even comes close! I don't care how good your banjo teacher is, or how many lessons you've had. Comparing lessons to actually playing music, with another person, is comparing apples & oranges. Whole different ball game. But, way more fun!
Unlike lessons, there are no do-overs in a jam session. You are now putting all that sweat & blood invested in lessons to work. Your pickin' buddy keeps on pickin'. That's his job. It's up to you to jump back in there. And when it's his turn to take a break, it becomes your job to keep time for him! No one is keeping score, no one cares. You're making music. That's the name of the game. You'll learn to ignore the faux pas, and cherish the accomplishments. Grins, what we, in the engineering profession, used to call Attaboys. And believe me, you'll accomplish more in 6 months than you did in years.
feel like I'm wasting my time... Especially if you ask their spouse or family
How does one go about evaluating their progress???? Are you having fun?
Expectations, can lead to disappointment or lack of having fun.
When my family complained about my "obsession with the banjo" I asked if they would rather I waste my time drinking beer at a bar?
Lessons, & practice are work. No two ways about it. Expectations are setting yourself up for failure, every time you move the bar up a little bit.
It would be nice if you got a little encouragement now & then, like every time you played something halfway decent?
That kind of encouragement comes from fellow musicians who are able to appreciate the effort, because they've BTDT.
Take your banjo with you everywhere you go. Play it in the parking lot on your lunch break at work. Play it when you visit family. Play it when you take the kiddos to the park. People who don't play music are easily impressed by anyone that can. You don't have to be Earl Scruggs, you only have to be better than they are! Just ignore them & play your heart out. Sooner or later, someone will notice & talk to you.
One person is all it takes. Even another novice banjo player, will compliment your playing every time you surprise them with something new. And there will be tunes, & other musicians they know that you don't, yet. The compliments & info flows back & forth that way. It opens doors, to a whole new world. It's called networking, old school networking. Now you're having fun.
It all depends on what your expectations are for the future. Are they realistic..? Playing banjo isn't just learning the mechanics and you'll sound like a lot of the band members you hear on here or Youtube. Most are very musically talented individuals and they are playing at a level that very few will ever reach, even if they could practice 24 hours a day. The main thing is that you enjoy playing and your banjo is always close to hand, I have been playing mainly by myself now for forty years and think I'm an intermediate player at best. That doesn't bother me at all, I feel I have reached a level that I enjoy and it means I still play and sing most days.
I don't play by sheet music or tab, just by ear so my level and style is my own, there's no desire to learn tab to sound like someone else. As long as you're enjoying it you won't gradually lose interest and I think that's a big thing about learning to play an instrument.
The word GOALS can be intimidating to some people. Another way to ask is what do you want to do with your music. Do you want to be in a band, just play with friends, or perhaps play solo gigs like nursing homes or street busking? What would give you satisfaction from your music? What would be fun for you?
Some great advice given below to access Banjo Ben Clark's site. Would definitely provide structured programming for determining progress. Suggest becoming a Gold Pick member. Hope this helps.
Goals/expectations? They weren't particularly lofty when I started a decade or so back, but I've adjusted them downward a couple of times.... now I think I have a better idea of what's realistic.
Evaluate progress? My wife and a few guys at jams have mentioned that, "You're getting better." I think they're right, but ya never know ... could be that they're trying to "provide encouragement."
Fun/enjoyment? Generally people don't leave when I "play." [Only one dick-head ever moved on to another jamming group when I started... but his moving on wasn't a significant factor ... he was already a dick-head beforehand.] I've recently started to see if I can learn to do a passable clawhammer stroke (?) .... see if my right hand is any more amenable to that than "picking." [And, fwiw, my wife tells me I "should sing louder."] Regardless ... I ain't packin' 'er in.
When I started down this road, the songs & tunes which inspired this conquest, were FMB, Cripple Creek, & The Ballad of Jed Clampett. That was all I knew of what I later found was called Bluegrass, & I thought that if & when I got to where I could play those three songs, I would've achieved my goal. By the time I got there, I had also learned Cumberland Gap, OJC, & Red Wing. I was real proud of myself. Proud enough to attend a BG Festival/Banjo Contest, with hope of maybe even win a prize.
That BG festival was an awakening! So many songs/tunes, so many good pickers. Hanging out, observing the jam sessions, watching & listening to the music, the instrumental interaction, the vocal harmonies, totally unscripted, was absolutely fascinating! These were all amateur musicians, with families & day jobs, just like me! It was addicting. The goal posts had been moved.
Unable to participate, all I could do was get off by myself & play those six songs I knew. That's how I came to meet Roger, Jerry, & Roy, fellow struggling banjo players living close enough to get together now & then. We soon discovered that between the four of us, the shared knowledge base was considerably greater than any of us, alone, possessed. That started the ball rolling. Every gathering thereafter, added pickers & expanded that knowledge base exponentially.
