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KYSLOWFINGERS - Posted - 01/17/2024: 12:35:17
Anyone have trouble with songs that stay on a chord for an extended period? I recently encountered UNCLE PEN, I've listened to it for over 50 years and can even sing the words from memory, but never thought about the chord progression. When it popped up at a jam, my playing sounded like an old cracked 33, the same old groove over and over LOL There are other songs out there, even KATY DALEY, tends to hang on a little long. Thanks for any tips and or tricks for similar songs / situations.
chuckv97 - Posted - 01/17/2024: 12:51:14
A long 5 chord in “Back to the Barrooms Again”
A long 4 chord at the end of the chorus in “Old Train”
I always feel like I’m treading water and trying to hear the lyrics and number of beats in my head.
KYSLOWFINGERS - Posted - 01/17/2024: 16:24:16
Chuck, treading water is a good analogy. Staying put LOL I recently was helping a guy get started on the guitar. The first song he wanted to play was Wagon Wheel (I know), and he struggled with the constant chord changes. And I guess it was me as well on Bile Them Cabbage Down, but you pretty much know where you need to be on those.
stanleytone - Posted - 01/18/2024: 03:06:38
Thats the number one reason i teach a student the chord progression to any song i teach them ,learning to vamp the chords before getting into any break .
Knowing were youre at chord wise in any tune makes learning the break and licks to the break easier to put together
Edited by - stanleytone on 01/18/2024 03:07:16
wrench13 - Posted - 01/18/2024: 04:35:31
Hey - look at it like this - its better then them hornpipies that have a million 2 beat chord changes to them. My guitar player dreads when we bring a new fiddle tune into the band, he knows his left hand is gonna be busy as h*ll.
Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 01/18/2024: 05:44:49
Holding a chord too long is a recipe for me to get distracted and question where I'm at. To avoid this, I'll use a substitution or just change the voice.
For example, if I have say... an Amaj for seven full measures, I might instead play:
Amaj - F#m - Amaj - AMaj7/ A7 - A6 - E7/ F#m - Amaj
All those chords may seem a handful, but in my mind all I've done is play different A major voicings (including a descending Maj7 - Dom7 - 6th), the relative minor, and maybe a couple beats of the V7 chord.
If I wanted to get real deep, and had time to plan, I could look at other substitutions and passing chords, but just shuffling between common major voicings of the chord is easy, doesn't tax my brain in the moment, and works in most situations.
I'm about as intimidated by few chord changes as too many. Too few chord changes can be like playing right field - I'm liable to have my mind start drifting until a ball smacks into my head.
Edited by - Nic Pennsylvania on 01/18/2024 05:46:35
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/18/2024: 06:35:43
Focus on the phrasing, line by line or even half lines.
For example, "Katy Daley". Like most songs, the verse and the chorus each have four lines. The first line is all the 1 chord. The second line starts on the 1 and goes to the 5 halfway through. The third line is all 5, and the last line starts on 5 and goes back to 1 at the end.
Thinking about it that way, you still have that huge stretch of 5 chord, but now you're not thinking about how there's sixteen solid beats with no chord changes; instead you've broken it up into smaller--and more structurally meaningful--chunks, each of which might be more manageable.
Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 01/18/2024 06:36:57
banjoak - Posted - 01/18/2024: 08:40:20
quote:
Originally posted by KYSLOWFINGERSAnyone have trouble with songs that stay on a chord for an extended period? I recently encountered UNCLE PEN, I've listened to it for over 50 years and can even sing the words from memory, but never thought about the chord progression. When it popped up at a jam, my playing sounded like an old cracked 33, the same old groove over and over LOL There are other songs out there, even KATY DALEY, tends to hang on a little long. Thanks for any tips and or tricks for similar songs / situations.
I'm not really sure what referring to, these songs fit pretty common chord changes, and durations of when chord changes happen.
For me, coming from rhythm guitar and bass background, (also play a lot of old-time; a lot of almost all one chord tunes) - it's about being in a group and overall sound; main role is rhythm section (as with guitar/bass), it's not about how many chords or how often; but making a groove, a simple but solid foundation that serves the song, supports the vocal/melody; not distract.
There are things might throw in like rhythmic accents, nuances, dynamics to help highlight phrases; perhaps slight syncopations, working with other rhythm instruments; and other things to give flow of movement. Part of that can be moving chords to different positions/inversions/shape moving the register up or down.; or find little extra fill notes (non-chord tones) to give movement within the chord shapes. That said, none of that is through boredom; from lack of chord movement, or being on one chord... just if serves the song and overall flow/groove; sometimes simpler is better.
YMMV
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/18/2024: 13:45:54
Re: "Uncle Pen"--
After the final chorus in the original 1950 recording, fiddler Merle “Red” Taylor begins to play “Jenny Lynn,” one of the tunes mentioned in the lyric. “Jenny Lynn,” like many fiddle tunes, is built up of two-measure phrases that match exactly the short lines of the verses of “Uncle Pen,” and can be accompanied by the same chords. As Taylor repeats that first part of the tune bassist Joel Price very clearly plays two D notes while the rest of the band plays an A-major chord. Evidently Price mistook the first part of “Jenny Lynn” for an instrumental break like the ones heard earlier in the song, and expected it to be followed by a chorus, which would have begun with a D-major chord.
youtu.be/40g8kY99Fm4?t=137
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/18/2024: 14:14:20
quote:
Originally posted by banjoakquote:
Originally posted by KYSLOWFINGERSAnyone have trouble with songs that stay on a chord for an extended period? I recently encountered UNCLE PEN, I've listened to it for over 50 years and can even sing the words from memory, but never thought about the chord progression. When it popped up at a jam, my playing sounded like an old cracked 33, the same old groove over and over LOL There are other songs out there, even KATY DALEY, tends to hang on a little long. Thanks for any tips and or tricks for similar songs / situations.
I'm not really sure what referring to, these songs fit pretty common chord changes, and durations of when chord changes happen.
For me, coming from rhythm guitar and bass background, (also play a lot of old-time; a lot of almost all one chord tunes) - it's about being in a group and overall sound; main role is rhythm section (as with guitar/bass), it's not about how many chords or how often; but making a groove, a simple but solid foundation that serves the song, supports the vocal/melody; not distract.
There are things might throw in like rhythmic accents, nuances, dynamics to help highlight phrases; perhaps slight syncopations, working with other rhythm instruments; and other things to give flow of movement. Part of that can be moving chords to different positions/inversions/shape moving the register up or down.; or find little extra fill notes (non-chord tones) to give movement within the chord shapes. That said, none of that is through boredom; from lack of chord movement, or being on one chord... just if serves the song and overall flow/groove; sometimes simpler is better.
YMMV
I think I have witnessed a few old-time jams where playing the same chord for 15minutes was not considered a problem.
chuckv97 - Posted - 01/18/2024: 16:23:50
Quote: “
I think I have witnessed a few old-time jams where playing the same chord for 15minutes was not considered a problem. ”
Those often remind me of Gregorian chants….
banjoak - Posted - 01/18/2024: 17:33:31
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence Diehl
I think I have witnessed a few old-time jams where playing the same chord for 15minutes was not considered a problem.
Yep, I often play guitar for for those, not a problem. Similar, having played drums, no chords or notes, and mostly you're not there to solo, but play a fairly simple and repetitive rhythm pattern, mostly kick snare hihat; (with maybe subtle nuances here and there) maybe switch hihat to ride for a long bit. You got to get into and love playing rhythm.
Some of this reminds me of what session guitarist Tim Pierce said about a lot electric guitar players, when starting out - become obsessed with focused on working on the awesome solos and leads the hear from icons... with little to no interest in working on rhythm guitar parts, view it as just something to fill time until they get to solo. But in most situations, what you will be spending vast majority of time doing is rhythm parts. Those that get more opportunity to play, ones that worked on great rhythm. Similar observations in banjo world, as many folks advise students... work on rhythm BU; you will be rewarded.
Edited by - banjoak on 01/18/2024 17:39:19
Laurence Diehl - Posted - 01/18/2024: 21:14:06
Since this is the bluegrass forum, I assume that the OP is talking in the context of Scruggs style banjo, not some other instrument or style. If you go beyond vamping, Scruggs style backup is an opportunity for almost limitless improv, whether you are hanging on one chord or not. Some of the most creative playing you can do is to play behind a singer, and make the song sound good.
banjoak - Posted - 01/19/2024: 00:11:44
quote:
Originally posted by Laurence DiehlSince this is the bluegrass forum, I assume that the OP is talking in the context of Scruggs style banjo, not some other instrument or style. If you go beyond vamping, Scruggs style backup is an opportunity for almost limitless improv, whether you are hanging on one chord or not. Some of the most creative playing you can do is to play behind a singer, and make the song sound good.
I understand it's bluegrass, and know the difference... agree can give opportunity to be creative with BU and texture... if done tastefully, and serving the song. That applies to other instruments and styles as well. But was pointing out observation of similar comments about number of chords, or staying on a chord for a long time... perspectives or attitude when comes to playing BU.
Edited by - banjoak on 01/19/2024 00:14:43
fish1963 - Posted - 01/19/2024: 07:06:03
@Nic Pennsylvania nailed it. Alan Munde gave me a chord sheet last year that outlines the diatonic chords for a given key. Powerful stuff. Just fire up a backing track sometime in the key of G - using only the G chord ....and roll thru G, Am, BM, C, D, Em, F#dim7 and back to G.
Just keeping moving...don't camp on a chord too long. It's wonderful and exposes a lot of the mystery.
KYSLOWFINGERS - Posted - 01/19/2024: 07:49:51
Thanks to everyone that has responded, great info. I think chord substitution is the silver bullet I was looking for. I will need to make a cheat sheet for my banjo case, till I get it down. I've wore out one with up the neck chord locations. Ira, great song history as well, I love that stuff. Again, thanks to all, I will attempt to grow my playing with your insights.
monstertone - Posted - 01/19/2024: 09:45:18
Some of those old songs had what is referred to as "poor time." That is, an extra half measure at the end of a verse or chorus. That G run at the end of the chorus in Uncle Pen, for example, it doesn't meter correctly. It kinda rattles your bones, until you become accustom to it. Tennessee Stud is another good example of that. The music stops, there is a hot lick to draw your attention, the music restarts. The "back step" in Clinch Mountain Back Step, is also like that.
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/19/2024: 10:30:59
quote:
Originally posted by fish1963@Nic Pennsylvania nailed it. Alan Munde gave me a chord sheet last year that outlines the diatonic chords for a given key. Powerful stuff. Just fire up a backing track sometime in the key of G - using only the G chord ....and roll thru these triads G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim and back to G.
Just keeping moving...don't camp on a chord too long. It's wonderful and exposes a lot of the mystery.
Gee, can you give me an example of a song that does that?
I would suggest that people do what the singer or lead instrument does during these long stretches, add in notes of the scale that add interest to the song. Notes in the triad are resolution while notes outside of it are tension. Tension and resolution are what makes melodies AND backup interesting.
fish1963 - Posted - 01/19/2024: 11:23:52
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallquote:
Originally posted by fish1963@Nic Pennsylvania nailed it. Alan Munde gave me a chord sheet last year that outlines the diatonic chords for a given key. Powerful stuff. Just fire up a backing track sometime in the key of G - using only the G chord ....and roll thru these triads G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim and back to G.
Just keeping moving...don't camp on a chord too long. It's wonderful and exposes a lot of the mystery.Gee, can you give me an example of a song that does that?
I would suggest that people do what the singer or lead instrument does during these long stretches, add in notes of the scale that add interest to the song. Notes in the triad are resolution while notes outside of it are tension. Tension and resolution are what makes melodies AND backup interesting.
nope ... I can't. Probably should have been a bit more clear. It's simply an exercise exposing the diatonic chord structures in the key and perhaps opening new ideas. There are however plenty of songs that use snippits of the exercise ... especially when, as the OP stated, you are staying on the chord for a long time.
Your way obviously works too.
steve davis - Posted - 01/19/2024: 11:39:18
I do a lot of melody and/or tenor harmony and chord harmonies.
I do chord substitutions where appropriate,
There can be a few options rather than simply hanging on a given chord.
You can play a Dm against a G for instance.Just as a hint to break up the stuck feeling.
gcpicken - Posted - 01/19/2024: 16:50:07
quote:
Originally posted by fish1963@Nic Pennsylvania nailed it. Alan Munde gave me a chord sheet last year that outlines the diatonic chords for a given key. Powerful stuff. Just fire up a backing track sometime in the key of G - using only the G chord ....and roll thru G, Am, BM, C, D, Em, F#dim7 and back to G.
Just keeping moving...don't camp on a chord too long. It's wonderful and exposes a lot of the mystery.
Is that also described as "Harmonizing the G Scale". You play a chord off every note in the scale, ascending, taking the 1,3 and 5 of the chord from the G scale.
Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 01/20/2024: 05:05:44
quote:
Originally posted by gcpickenquote:
Originally posted by fish1963@Nic Pennsylvania nailed it. Alan Munde gave me a chord sheet last year that outlines the diatonic chords for a given key. Powerful stuff. Just fire up a backing track sometime in the key of G - using only the G chord ....and roll thru G, Am, BM, C, D, Em, F#dim7 and back to G.
Just keeping moving...don't camp on a chord too long. It's wonderful and exposes a lot of the mystery.Is that also described as "Harmonizing the G Scale". You play a chord off every note in the scale, ascending, taking the 1,3 and 5 of the chord from the G scale.
This is Diatonic Harmony. You've got it, creating triads (1-3-5) using only the notes from the parent scale. In G, this gives you what Fish1963 wrote out. However, in all keys the pattern remains the same:
I - ii - iii - IV - V - vi - vii° (lowercase being minor)
You can stack another third (7) and get Gmaj7, Am7, etc.
One helpful thing I learned playing jazz is that any major can replace any major. For example: Amaj, A6, Aadd9, A69, A7, AMaj7, A11, A13...These are all versions of A major. In a larger group, I wouldn't do something as bold as an A13, as this harmonically rich chord could clash with the melody, but you're not going to be able to get a 13 chord in its entirety on a banjo.
But play around with it. Any major/any minor. This can be used to create movement within the harmony and is a simple idea at it's core. Try it out.
Also, I love throwing #IV° between IV and V (e.g. C - C#° - D7).
gcpicken - Posted - 01/20/2024: 05:26:17
quote:
OriginallyAlso, I love throwing #IV° between IV and V (e.g. C - C#° - D7).
Thanks, Nic. I did some jazz theory for a year or so - just because I like knowing how sausage is made. Some of it stuck in my head. Is does help me understand the guitar/banjo fretboard, etc. I'll never be a "player" of any instrument but understanding some theory adds to my enjoyment. Whenever I am feeling down or discouraged about something in my life, I just remind myself that Phrygian Dominant is the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor, and I cheer right up!
Edited by - gcpicken on 01/20/2024 05:28:08
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/20/2024: 07:46:11
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallquote:
Originally posted by fish1963@Nic Pennsylvania nailed it. Alan Munde gave me a chord sheet last year that outlines the diatonic chords for a given key. Powerful stuff. Just fire up a backing track sometime in the key of G - using only the G chord ....and roll thru these triads G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim and back to G.
Just keeping moving...don't camp on a chord too long. It's wonderful and exposes a lot of the mystery.Gee, can you give me an example of a song that does that?
I would suggest that people do what the singer or lead instrument does during these long stretches, add in notes of the scale that add interest to the song. Notes in the triad are resolution while notes outside of it are tension. Tension and resolution are what makes melodies AND backup interesting.
I've seen Alan teaching this kind of thing. The use of triads that fish1963 is referring to is just in the lead instrument. Most of those chords are passing chords, NOT the song's basic, underlying chord progression. The rhythm section would be playing something much simpler.
In fact, mmuussiiccaall, what Alan was talking about is pretty much what you're talking about here: tension and resolution!
Edited by - Ira Gitlin on 01/20/2024 07:47:38
steve davis - Posted - 01/20/2024: 08:29:43
You can get away with many things,but they need to fit the context of the tune.
Remember what sounds right and what doesn't.
Edited by - steve davis on 01/20/2024 08:31:12
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/20/2024: 09:46:05
Trivia: What genre of songs never changes chords and is always in the key of C?
monstertone - Posted - 01/20/2024: 11:15:13
Some contend OT & BG to be the unsophisticated music of simpletons, having only the most basic chords. And when we (banjoists) include the 5th string (G) against a D major chord, they cry foul, actually, it's a Dsus(pended)4 chord. Add a B, note to that and they really scream. It is, however, a D6sus4 chord which is perfectly legit. Long story short, discord is a misnomer. Although it may sound dissonant to some ears, unrecognizable does not make it wrong.
I could go on. However, the proper forum for that would be Music Theory.
Jack Baker - Posted - 01/20/2024: 11:43:18
J.D.,
I've dealt with this kind of thinking at NYUseless for 35 years. Stay on your path and all will be well. Music is supposed to be about what you feel and hear around you, not a bunch of eggheads trying to ruin what Music really is....see ya Bro...Jack p.s. these eggheads are also trying to ruin spoken language too. When I watch TV I don't even understand what they, (commentators), are trying to say...
Edited by - Jack Baker on 01/20/2024 11:55:07
Ira Gitlin - Posted - 01/20/2024: 14:18:51
quote:
Originally posted by monstertoneAnd when we (banjoists) include the 5th string (G) against a D major chord, they cry foul, actually, it's a Dsus(pended)4 chord.
I'd just tell 'em, "It's a banjo; get used to it!"
;^)
Jack Baker - Posted - 01/20/2024: 14:51:44
Ha!
Ira, that's more than i do. I just tell people with that attitude I gotta use the bathroom and get away from them quickly....Jack
Bronx banjo - Posted - 01/20/2024: 20:27:35
I think the phrase “serving the song” is an excellent way to think about the use of chords. I don’t subscribe to the idea that the more chords there are in a song, the more “sophisticated” it is. It amazes me how much can be done with just 3 basic chords; an endless variety. If you listen carefully to a melody, it will tell you what it needs. I think a good example is the tune Blackberry Blossom. Flatt and Scruggs do this tune and I a think it’s Benny Martin on fiddle. There is no banjo break in their version, only fiddle lead. For the first part of the tune, the band stays in G until the very last phrase when they play a D chord. Compare that to Bill Keith’s version in which the chords run from G to D to C etc. There’s also an A chord before the last measure. The second part of the tune contains a B7 chord. To my ears, the Keith version sounds better because the tune seems to cry out for those changes. I would guess that an old-time player would prefer the F&S version.
I think it’s important to realize that these fiddle tunes were around long before the guitar was introduced as an accompaniment. When I listen to string bands from the 20s or 30s, it sounds like the guitar players were in uncharted territory. Minor chords were non existent and they often seemed confused about what to play next. In contrast, a song such as Leather Britches doesn’t require more than one chord and doesn’t even need a guitar accompaniment. I guess the point of this is to listen to what the song is telling you and apply your sense of musical taste to it. It’s not an intellectual exercise, it’s more of a gut feeling.
Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 01/21/2024: 10:55:23
quote:
Originally posted by Bronx banjoI think the phrase “serving the song” is an excellent way to think about the use of chords. I don’t subscribe to the idea that the more chords there are in a song, the more “sophisticated” it is. It amazes me how much can be done with just 3 basic chords...
I certainly don't want to be misconstrued as advocating more chords for their own sake. I change chords to serve the song, complimenting the melody. To me adding a 6, 7b, or 9 to a basic triad is nothing more than extending the harmony a bit. And sure, you can get a lifetime's worth of music from your I-IV-V, but you can also serve the song by adding a bit.
You mention Leather Britches, check out the accompaniment here (youtu.be/yXnXc_GkXes?si=UskVSV9y9iXgblQ7) they're still utilizing basic triads, but using inversions and a couple passing chords to avhieve interest and bass movement. It's still Leather Britches.
Old Hickory - Posted - 01/21/2024: 11:01:09
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallTrivia: What genre of songs never changes chords and is always in the key of C?
Gregorian chants?
Jack Baker - Posted - 01/21/2024: 14:05:59
Ken,
Yes, they used all the basic chords/progressons we know and even minor chords and more...Jack
Edited by - Jack Baker on 01/21/2024 14:06:31
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/21/2024: 16:52:58
quote:
Originally posted by Old Hickoryquote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallTrivia: What genre of songs never changes chords and is always in the key of C?
Gregorian chants?
The hint is that this genre must have an instrument that can only play the first third and fifth steps of the scale
Bronx banjo - Posted - 01/21/2024: 18:12:54
Nic, that’s an interesting version of Leather Britches. To my ears the chords fit the tune. It has a kind of Western Swing feel to it. Thanks for sharing it.
phb - Posted - 01/22/2024: 09:13:57
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallquote:
Originally posted by Old Hickoryquote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallTrivia: What genre of songs never changes chords and is always in the key of C?
Gregorian chants?
The hint is that this genre must have an instrument that can only play the first third and fifth steps of the scale
Are bugle calls a genre?
Owen - Posted - 01/22/2024: 09:26:13
Is "never changing" and "progression" an oxymoron?
And would progressions more accurately/appropriately be called sequences?
Ooops ... like Jack mentioned ^^ .... I gotta use the bathroom.
Edited by - Owen on 01/22/2024 09:27:08
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/22/2024: 13:13:24
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallTrivia: What genre of songs never changes chords and is always in the key of C?
Are bugle calls a genre?
Phillip, you got it!
I put up some details
Brian Murphy - Posted - 01/29/2024: 16:33:03
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallquote:
Originally posted by fish1963@Nic Pennsylvania nailed it. Alan Munde gave me a chord sheet last year that outlines the diatonic chords for a given key. Powerful stuff. Just fire up a backing track sometime in the key of G - using only the G chord ....and roll thru these triads G, Am, Bm, C, D, Em, F#dim and back to G.
Just keeping moving...don't camp on a chord too long. It's wonderful and exposes a lot of the mystery.Gee, can you give me an example of a song that does that?
I would suggest that people do what the singer or lead instrument does during these long stretches, add in notes of the scale that add interest to the song. Notes in the triad are resolution while notes outside of it are tension. Tension and resolution are what makes melodies AND backup interesting.
Would Ben Eldridge on Rider be an example of this?
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 01/29/2024: 18:24:14
quote:Originally posted by Brian Murphyquote:Originally .Would Ben Eldridge on Rider be an example of this?
no that would be an example of running up and down the mixolydian mode,
Brian Murphy - Posted - 01/29/2024: 18:41:26
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaallquote:Originally posted by Brian Murphyquote:Originally .Would Ben Eldridge on Rider be an example of this?
no that would be an example of running up and down the mixolydian mode,
Yeah, just testing you ;)