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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Orange Shirt Day ...


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Paul R - Posted - 09/29/2023:  19:34:14


... also the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation in Canada, 30 September.



This stems from the calls to action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The Commission investigated the residential schools scandal, in which First Nations children were taken from their homes and sent to schools in an effort to strip them of their heritage. The result was physical and sexual abuse, and death for many children. Even now mass graves are being discovered and uncovered. The schools existed from 1831 to 1996, and our first prime minister, Sir John A. MacDonald, was one of the schools' supporters and creators.



This is the tenth annual Orange Shirt Day. Phyllis Webstad, a school survivor, created Orange Shirt Day, remembering her fist day in residential school when they took away the orange shirt she was wearing and never gave it back. The common slogan for the day is "every child matters".


Edited by - Paul R on 09/29/2023 19:46:53


chuckv97 - Posted - 09/29/2023:  22:55:44


I’m not a denier, but thought I’d throw this out for scrutiny
tvpworld.com/72452350/no-bodie...s-victims

Paul R - Posted - 09/29/2023:  23:29:00


quote:

Originally posted by chuckv97

I’m not a denier, but thought I’d throw this out for scrutiny

tvpworld.com/72452350/no-bodie...s-victims






I clicked on your link and got a warning.



Meanwhile, here are other links:



bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49884387  Canada reveals names of 2,800 victims of residential schools (2019)



abcnews.go.com/International/2...=77979045  215 bodies discovered at former residential school for Indigenous children in Canada



bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57592243  Canada: 751 unmarked graves found at residential school



bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-57311501  Canada-wide search urged as children's remains found



Facts matter.



 

chuckv97 - Posted - 09/30/2023:  08:50:21


Paul, I’m not doubting the abuse & horror,, just can’t understand why no exhumations have been done yet other than an initial one at Pine Creek in Manitoba. It being such a big international story and all. 

catholicnewsagency.com/news/25...ave-sites


Edited by - chuckv97 on 09/30/2023 08:59:00

bubbalouie - Posted - 09/30/2023:  12:48:54


I've got mine on!

Owen - Posted - 09/30/2023:  16:53:50


I'm hoping for some clear indication from F.N. leadership [political and non-political alike] whether an eventual goal is equality or inequality.   I've heard some decry the inequality, but I've yet to hear anybody espouse equality as an objective.   My wife has a smidgen of Mic Mac blood in her [fwiw, she pooh-poohs "Mig Maw"], and though she hasn't said so, and though she has worn orange shirts 'way back,* I think I might have seen the last of that.



* = and, IMNSHumbleO, looked "awesome" to use popular jargon.  yes

chuckv97 - Posted - 09/30/2023:  21:06:47


Another news outlet… I know, I know,, it’s the National Post…
nationalpost.com/news/canada/f...ns-graves

Owen - Posted - 10/01/2023:  06:16:31


Well, Chuck ... from the broken record dept: I think it's fairly common knowledge that our "news" (?) outlets/networks seem to be more interested in guiding our thinking [or lack of thinking?] than they are in reporting news.  Heck, I've even read where some know-it-all schmuck has put stuff on BHO threads about errors of omission/commission.   



I guess there's truth and then there's truth.   I suspect it's like one of the biggies we shant mention .... it'll come out in the wash ... 15ish years hence in that case, several times that timeframe in this one.  wink 



 


Edited by - Owen on 10/01/2023 06:22:56

steve davis - Posted - 10/01/2023:  06:24:24


There is one truth and a lot of other stuff claiming to be truth.They are not equals.
It's up to each and every one of us to do our job in recognizing the difference.

Due diligence.

lazyarcher - Posted - 10/01/2023:  07:14:16


My wife and daughter are status Cree, maternal side. My sister in law is status Haida (adopted as an infant). Their families were there when children were taken and sent to residential schools. They have family members who were interned at these so called schools. Its real, and children never came back. The Canadian govt has long lied to the public, kept secrets, and is still in full hide the truth mode. Residential schools were the Canadian equivalent of Nazi death camps.
The location of graves will never be fully resolved. Its enough that children were forced into these camps and died..from disease, starvation, abuse, murder. Trudeau, his father, all govt members are complicit and responsible because THEY KNEW....

Owen - Posted - 10/01/2023:  07:48:56


Dave .... from your standpoint, what should be done*?   .... and should those things be done to promote equality or to promote inequality?



* = i.e. specific, real, concrete actions .... beyond the concepts (?) mentioned in the Call To Action.  eg. Telling our federal government "... to establish measurable goals ... ."



Fwiw, I'm not so sure Brian White or Inky Mark or Robert Sopuck, or ??? actually knew, or knows, a whole heck of a lot more than does Joe Blow.

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 10/01/2023:  07:51:29


Evil iggzists..

Wake up..

Lotta lies n coverups..out there imo..

steve davis - Posted - 10/01/2023:  08:15:48


we weren't allowed to discuss "Indian matters" in our local school except for the one story told to us by our principal of their ignorance and disrespect of their "Nice government housing".
The truth hurt too much to discuss.
Maine later did much better when real truth was honored.

lazyarcher - Posted - 10/02/2023:  06:02:48


quote:

Originally posted by Owen

Dave .... from your standpoint, what should be done*?   .... and should those things be done to promote equality or to promote inequality?



* = i.e. specific, real, concrete actions .... beyond the concepts (?) mentioned in the Call To Action.  eg. Telling our federal government "... to establish measurable goals ... ."



Fwiw, I'm not so sure Brian White or Inky Mark or Robert Sopuck, or ??? actually knew, or knows, a whole heck of a lot more than does Joe Blow.






Owen..Honestly I don't know. We are all at the whims and mercy of the Govt when it comes to the truth. They've been a part of this from day one when the RCMP were dispatched to remove native children from their homes. Every govt has been complicit in hiding the truth and history from the citizens of Canada since. No way anyone is really going to take responsibility for genocide.



Personally, I think the only real solution..if thats what you would call it..is an independant International tribunal that would investigate and hold those accountable that can be..kinda like the Hague?

Elmo_Smiley - Posted - 10/02/2023:  06:26:30


Not from Canada, but I can certainly understand. In the US, the Reservation system was created to promote "safety and security" of native Americans. Yet, the government's real purpose was to create open prisons for native American peoples. Today, there is more alcoholism, unemployment and teen suicide on native reservations than anywhere else in America. Without college scholarships, it is nearly impossible for those on the reservations to ever leave and gain meaningful employment. And our Government does nothing. Good thing some have found the blessing of operating casinos for the mafia. It may be their only saving grace.
I'm not saying these schools in Canada were originally created with evil in mind, but it does bear thought. As a TN Vol, I have plenty of orange to wear on behalf of your cause, and will join you.

Owen - Posted - 10/02/2023:  09:07:45


Thanks Dave.  Would you please elaborate a bit on "held accountable"?  Do you mean financially? ...or issuing personal apologies? ... or serving prison time? ... or something else altogether?



Would the tribunal you envision be a step toward an [eventual] goal of equality? ... or inequality?



Fwiw, I'm aware of the U.N.'s "involvement," and I know others see it differently, but for me, genocide = Beothuk.  My wife and I have had a few more brief discussions (?) .... apparently her "association" is closer than I'd figured.  Back a couple of generations her paternal grandmother's Mic Mac ancestors were hired to go from NS to Newfieland to kill Beothuks.  [I can't keep it straight whether they were hired by the British or the French, but the minuitae is sorta irrelevant* to both of us.]



* Kinda like comparing it Nazi death camps, does it really matter [other than to those with personal family involvement] whether the Nazis gassed 3 million Jews, or 5 million or 8 million, or ???  I look at our Canadian situation in the same light .... and figure that, with the exception of those making a conscious effort to not know,  "we" know enough detail to take corrective action.  For me the first step in that corrective action is to get a clear indication whether an eventual goal is equality or inequality ... but I'm having a dickens of a time finding anybody who'll even acknowledge that that could be a factor.  Do you figure I'm 'way out beyond left field?



Elmo, I figure the treaties in Canada were, in essence, "You guys get over on that patch of land so "we" can develop/exploit the rest of it."  [From what I've read the US governments were more amenable to ignoring the treaties and making reserve land available to others, but I could be wrong.]   W.r.t. treaties, the numbered treaties that cover most of the Canadian prairies have a clause, ".... do hereby cede, release, surrender and yield up to the Government of the Dominion of Canada, for Her Majesty the Queen, and Her successors forever, all their rights, titles and privileges whatsoever, to the lands included within ... etc." Personally I don't find much that's honourable in the treaties, but I find the range of people who spout, "Honour the treaties" quite interesting.  I often wonder [sometimes even aloud] how many of those that repeat the mantra have actually read a treaty.



I tip my toque to anybody who slogged through my drivel/tome/??. 

Owen - Posted - 10/02/2023:  11:38:29


Interestingly/coincidentally/?? CBC Radio's Unreserved with Rosanna Deerchild was just on, mainly in the background.  However, a couple of snippets from her F.N. guests stuck out:  a) In Canada the current buzzword is  "reconciliation." and that for that guest "... that starts with personal relationships." and b) "The media sometimes puts the wrong spin on things."



I dunno whether personal relationships is the start, but IMNSHumbleO it sure as hello has to be in the mix.  Funny (?) thing is I've been saying something eerily similar since I saw it work when MB amalgamated into larger school divisions 1960ish.   ..... and again a decade or so later when a WASP [easy on the P, please], a guy of Ukrainian/Eskimo [his terminology at the time] heritage and a Metis guy were like the three musketeers ...  personal relationships = cruising/touring/carousing, playing ball/hockey, etc., etc.   So, now I guess a salient point would be just where/how those personal relationships come about .... your world or mine?



Fwiw, I'm glad Ms Deerchild's guest mentioned  "buzzword."    The way I see it is there's 'way too much buzzword / bandwagon / virtue signaling, [to get in another buzzword] / etc. in many peoples approach .... and that includes both/all "sides."

mike gregory - Posted - 10/02/2023:  13:56:53


quote:

Originally posted by Owen

Dave .... from your standpoint, what should be done*?   .... and should those things be done to promote equality or to promote inequality?



* = i.e. specific, real, concrete actions .... beyond the concepts (?) mentioned in the Call To Action.  eg. Telling our federal government "... to establish measurable goals ... ."



Fwiw, I'm not so sure Brian White or Inky Mark or Robert Sopuck, or ??? actually knew, or knows, a whole heck of a lot more than does Joe Blow.






I don't know if it would work in Canada, but here in the U of S of A, when there is something terrible done to people, the usual response is to offer "thoughts and prayers", instead of doing anything measurable.

steve davis - Posted - 10/02/2023:  14:14:36


Maine has made strides.

Owen - Posted - 10/02/2023:  15:07:35


Mike, in Canada we've measured things to the extent that had Elmo not told us the social indicators were w.r.t the USofA, we could have easily figured he was talking about Canada.



Steve, are the strides being made in Maine toward clearly identified/stated goals?

Owen - Posted - 10/02/2023:  18:46:16


... and for an injection of humour [at least for me]: My sister's kids, two sons H______ and P______ and a daughter L____  are certifiable (?) Metis.   As a somewhat young-ish adult, my niece went whole hog for the "indigenous person" thingy.  Her older brother H_____ , a pretty witty dude in his own right, was moved to observe, "And what's with L____ ? ...... she's only been a born-again Indian for two years."  yes


Edited by - Owen on 10/02/2023 18:49:48

steve davis - Posted - 10/04/2023:  09:36:46


quote:

Originally posted by Owen

Mike, in Canada we've measured things to the extent that had Elmo not told us the social indicators were w.r.t the USofA, we could have easily figured he was talking about Canada.



Steve, are the strides being made in Maine toward clearly identified/stated goals?






I don't get "clearly and identified/stated goals",Owen...As opposed to throwing whatever sticks to the wall?



I suppose Maine acts as it always has...with well thought-out solutions to problems with all of us at heart in its decisions...and because Maine is each and every one of us.

Owen - Posted - 10/04/2023:  10:25:48


I suppose it's as opposed to "we're lost but we're making good time."



Steve, have you seen/read any public statement concerning  what the objective or goal or outcome is, or specify what is to be achieved by whatever action or initiative or change is being instituted or undertaken, in regards to it's relationship with its citizens of Am. Indian ancestry?   Or is an issue/area for improvement identified, a plan formulated and action taken without a goal having been established?  Or is it something in between?  ... or??



"Maine is each and every one of us" has me thinking there must be no "us/them" in Maine, only "we."  Although that's one of my utopian dreams, I expect that would be a pretty rare occurrence.



Fwiw, a big deal is being made in these parts about MB electing it's first F.N. premier yesterday. It suits me fine; I suspect it will be good for F.N. people [especially younger ones] to actually "see" it, though I suspect any changes to the lives of most Man-ee-toe-bahns [iffin we don't get our panties in a twist re. campaign promises] will be well into the future and very slow in their evolution.



 

Owen - Posted - 10/04/2023:  11:25:23


Geez, I gotta start payin' more attention. Via CBC radio, I just tripped over the tidbit that our man Wab Kinew is Metis.  Fwiw, it still suits me just fine.  



Edit: I'm well aware of our constitution's definitions, though I'm not sure it's a productive distinction.


Edited by - Owen on 10/04/2023 11:28:09

chuckv97 - Posted - 10/04/2023:  17:07:50


Owen, my SIL’s grandfather was part Métis,, which means indigenous blood has now infiltrated our noble Dutch extended family - oh the horror! You know,, we all remember reading about all those Dutch slave traders, Indonesian exploiters, and Hudson River traders that gave the Iroquois blunderbusses ….
(sarcasm font)

Owen - Posted - 10/04/2023:  17:36:48


Yes, we all do remember that .... and a whole lot of other bad stuff.  (no sarcasm font)

steve davis - Posted - 10/04/2023:  19:20:49


quote:

Originally posted by Owen

I suppose it's as opposed to "we're lost but we're making good time."



Steve, have you seen/read any public statement concerning  what the objective or goal or outcome is, or specify what is to be achieved by whatever action or initiative or change is being instituted or undertaken, in regards to it's relationship with its citizens of Am. Indian ancestry?   Or is an issue/area for improvement identified, a plan formulated and action taken without a goal having been established?  Or is it something in between?  ... or??



"Maine is each and every one of us" has me thinking there must be no "us/them" in Maine, only "we."  Although that's one of my utopian dreams, I expect that would be a pretty rare occurrence.



Fwiw, a big deal is being made in these parts about MB electing it's first F.N. premier yesterday. It suits me fine; I suspect it will be good for F.N. people [especially younger ones] to actually "see" it, though I suspect any changes to the lives of most Man-ee-toe-bahns [iffin we don't get our panties in a twist re. campaign promises] will be well into the future and very slow in their evolution.



 






I have no idea what you are talking about,Owen.

Owen - Posted - 10/04/2023:  19:29:19


Drawing it in the dirt with a stick might make it a bit more plain/clear, but somehow I doubt it.  Heck, let alone what I'm talking about, I suspect that you have no idea what you're talking about, so I guess it all evens outC'est la vie, I suppose. wink


Edited by - Owen on 10/04/2023 19:30:50

chuckv97 - Posted - 10/04/2023:  21:07:01


Now, now, Owen,,, we all know your style can be baffling at times,, what with the [ [ ] ] ,, / / / ,, and the numerous ? ? ?
If I were yooz I’d donate my brain to science !

lazyarcher - Posted - 10/05/2023:  06:46:16


quote:

Originally posted by Owen

Thanks Dave.  Would you please elaborate a bit on "held accountable"?  Do you mean financially? ...or issuing personal apologies? ... or serving prison time? ... or something else altogether?



Would the tribunal you envision be a step toward an [eventual] goal of equality? ... or inequality?



Owen



In an ideal world, accountability I suppose would be everything you said..no different than how we hold criminals responsible every day in court. BUT..we're dealing with governments, RCMP, churches..huge organizations that avoid accountability at all costs. An independent tribunal which would clearly establish lines of accountability may help the native communities and survivors move forward in the healing process. One of the problems with trauma survivors is its impossible to recover from the trauma when the world around you is hiding, suppressing, denying what happened to you.



Its convenient and a trendy thing for non-natives to wear their orange shirts and say I support my native brothers and sisters and read the land acknowledgment statements in schools and public events and businesses...but what does that really mean? I would challenge those people to say what it is that they are doing to achieve reconciliation and equality. Right now most people with their orange shirts on once a year are the people that steal your TV then invite you over to watch Netflix. Most do nothing to acknowledge the trauma and loss that the native communities suffered. Saying that, colonization is the world standard for society throughout time. It happened here, and you cant just give back the country and move out..we all know thats impossible and unreal expectations. Native groups lived here but no one really owns the land..we all now occupy it..so it means real reconciliation and equality is cohabitation in a way that respects all occupants. Im just not sure what that looks like....


lazyarcher - Posted - 10/05/2023:  06:53:31


quote:

Originally posted by steve davis

quote:

Originally posted by Owen

Mike, in Canada we've measured things to the extent that had Elmo not told us the social indicators were w.r.t the USofA, we could have easily figured he was talking about Canada.



Steve, are the strides being made in Maine toward clearly identified/stated goals?






I don't get "clearly and identified/stated goals",Owen...As opposed to throwing whatever sticks to the wall?



I suppose Maine acts as it always has...with well thought-out solutions to problems with all of us at heart in its decisions...and because Maine is each and every one of us.






But what has Maine done..really? "All of you" doesn't mean anything to native groups if it doesn't address what the colonial Maine did to them. Is there compensation? Are lands returned? Are Mainers paying rent to the native groups that once occupied where you live? Native groups are looking for very specific solutions to specific historical problems, most not wanting to be part of your colonial societies that oppressed them for the last 300 years.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 10/05/2023:  07:26:05


Land acknowledgements are a farce unless you are ready and willing to give the land back! More realistic would be the stance of: you were conquered, you lost your land and those who hold it now hold it as the spoils of war, same as it ever was, everywhere. War is and was horrible, everywhere and always, and not some special evil unique to White people. It is the history of every nation in the world, including "the Indians." Give up the fiction of sovereign nations, integrate into modern society, and get on with dealing with reality. That applies to both countries, who need to put an end to this "indigenous" nonsense.

Owen - Posted - 10/05/2023:  09:50:26


quote:

Originally posted by chuckv97

Now, now, Owen,,, we all know your style can be baffling at times,, what with the [ [ ] ] ,, / / / ,, and the numerous ? ? ?

If I were yooz I’d donate my brain to science !






Donate my brain??  You mean right away? ... or after I die? wink 



[What leads you to think science would accept it?]



When we worked on the fly-in reserves I used to periodically regale friends, relatives and assorted riff-raff with my "tales of woe."  interestingly (?), I never had even one instance where anyone said they were even mildly baffled by my writing style. Truth be told, a common sentiment was "keep it coming / give us more."



I figure my writing style (?) is pretty KISS / straightforward / easy to understand, and for the most part follows accepted conventions. [Though I acknowledge that my last official grammar lesson is so far back it doesn't even show in my rearview mirror.]    The [...] frequently denotes an "aside."  The " / " often denotes that instead of waiting for somebody to get his knickers in a knot over my use of the "wrong" word I've simply offered a couple of alternatives, and the "??" often denotes "in a similar vain" ... that the reader might even come up with a more appropriate word than what I've used.     Heck, "??" can even indicate than rather than me coming off as an authority, there is/might be some doubt in  my mind.   If ya want to get the full benefit of my expertise (?) ya gotta at least pretend yer awake.*



Somewhere along the line we were told to write with our intended audience in mind.   However I like to give anybody reading my drivel the benefit of any doubt ... I don't feel I should have to write with the absolute lowest common denominator in mind.   If the reader has to have a modicum of interest/moxie/?? in order to "get" what I'm writing, then so be it.



An' don't make me get out my "stick in the dirt" in order for you to figure ^^ out!!!  wink  



* =



 Homer Simpson Jury Duty Glasses GIFs | Tenor


Edited by - Owen on 10/05/2023 09:59:01

steve davis - Posted - 10/05/2023:  10:47:39


I was surprised to read the King blocked Maine's tribes from achieving what other tribes have.
Our tribes have some good things with hunting and gambling,but not with sovereignty.
Congress has a lot to do with that.

Stick in the sand means what,Owen.
I don't understand lots of what you say.I think I'm better off for that.

Owen - Posted - 10/05/2023:  11:08:44


Heaven forbid that a person gets to know something beyond that which he/she actually experiences.



... so long as the attention gets appropriately (?) focussed, I suppose the universe is unfolding as it should.  wink


Edited by - Owen on 10/05/2023 11:15:54

Owen - Posted - 10/05/2023:  19:07:02


Dave, you mention "equality" as a goal ... Thanks... so far as I know, that makes two of us.  yes   [I dunno about your influence, but mine is non-existent.]



The stumbling block for me is I can't figure how equality can be achieved if there's more than one set of rules [and truth be told, I wonder if that's the reason leadership makes no mention of it]. Do any of the "specific solutions to specific historical problems" mention equality as part of the solution?  Additionally I'm still in the dark about what reconciliation actually means and what I should be doing differently ... but so far the popular, inflammatory,  "white guilt" approach hasn't won me over, and IMNSHumbleO it might eventually do more harm than good.  Alas... or maybe fortunately... nobody's beating a path to my door to ask what I think.   



Among other things, "Only a pawn in their game" occasionally comes to my mind w.r.t the young people when I look back on our decade+ on the remote reserves.  I don't suggest that it's an easy row to hoe by any means, but I sometimes wonder aloud about the wisdom behind separate/apart from. 



 


Edited by - Owen on 10/05/2023 19:24:07

lazyarcher - Posted - 10/06/2023:  07:50:20


quote:

Originally posted by Owen

Dave, you mention "equality" as a goal ... Thanks... so far as I know, that makes two of us.  yes   [I dunno about your influence, but mine is non-existent.]



The stumbling block for me is I can't figure how equality can be achieved if there's more than one set of rules [and truth be told, I wonder if that's the reason leadership makes no mention of it]. Do any of the "specific solutions to specific historical problems" mention equality as part of the solution?  Additionally I'm still in the dark about what reconciliation actually means and what I should be doing differently ... but so far the popular, inflammatory,  "white guilt" approach hasn't won me over, and IMNSHumbleO it might eventually do more harm than good.  Alas... or maybe fortunately... nobody's beating a path to my door to ask what I think.   



Among other things, "Only a pawn in their game" occasionally comes to my mind w.r.t the young people when I look back on our decade+ on the remote reserves.  I don't suggest that it's an easy row to hoe by any means, but I sometimes wonder aloud about the wisdom behind separate/apart from. 



 






Owen..yeah you and me both. Equality, reconciliation..ask 100 people and get 100 different answers..including politicians. Im not sure our Govt is really in the business of reconciliation vs damage control. Ask all the white urbanites wearing orange Ts in Toronto or Vancouver what they are doing towards reconciliation and they'll tell you they bought the $25 T shirt..probably from a website that has no affiliation with any native group. Im beginning to believe all that will really happen will be $$$$ compensation..and lots of it. How do you return land to pre-colonization times when that land was never OWNED by anyone, just occupied, and now its occupied by other non-native groups? You cant tear down Toronto or Montreal, you cant vacate all the rural lands in the country. You go back to 1700. No, its going to be about $$$$.



With all of this, there are still hundreds of native communities without basic things like clean water..and its not just some remote northern community..the reserves 15 mins from me in southern Ontario are still without water. If that happened in next door London how long do you think it would take to fix it????  That shows to me that the Govt dosnt have equality or reconciliation in mind..they consider and treat the native communities as 2nd rate 3rd world peoples.  

Owen - Posted - 10/06/2023:  08:45:27


Dave: ".,.. bought the $25 T shirt..probably from a website that has no affiliation with any native group... ." 



Reminds me of the time we went to AZ one Christmas holiday. I bought a little plastic/rubber/fake feather "made in China" drum ornament/trinket ... sat it more-or-less prominently on my desk for a few months. Didn't garner even one query/comment.  sad 



Fwiw, there's more to the "boil water" advisories than is commonly known/accepted. When we went to one of the fly-ins at least half the community was water truck* > holding tank and honey wagon.* Over a couple of years of upgrades the whole community got onto what was described as  a "world class" water/sewage system. The improved cleanliness (?) of the kiddos in school was noticeable, and I expect there was also a corresponding drop in cases of ??? being seen at the nursing station.  Within two years of us leaving the community, a MacLean's article cited that community as having one of the worst sewage/water systems in the country.  I acknowledge it's but one example ..... . 



[Fwiw,   I often wonder why news (?) interviewers generally eschew asking  the next obvious question.]



* = Although there are many "funny" things that take place, I assure you it was different trucks. yes



I trust I'm not coming off as one-sided.... undoubtedly the FNs got, and in some cases continue to get, the s***** end of a short stick.  However I do question whether many of the "initiatives" are actually productive, but to my mind that depends to a significant degree on the [over-arching] objective. [Lost, but making good time???]



The whole us/them conundrum reminds me of our large family on our small(ish) farm.  All of us trying to stay on the farm would not have turned out well ... we simply had to participate in the larger society.  No biggie for us, in that we weren't simultaneously ostracized/looked down on from both without and within.   A tough situation for the upcoming generation(s) for sure.



P.S. Thanks for your reasoned/refreshing viewpoint(s).

Owen - Posted - 10/06/2023:  09:12:35


Fwiw, some government info on long term DWAs. sac-isc.gc.ca/eng/150651414335...317130660



This whole water thingy reminds me of another instance, coincidentally from that ^^ same reserve.  A heavy-duty mechanic was periodically flown in to do his thing [even though once in a while his tools would be sabotaged, sometimes $$ would run out, etc., etc. Like I said ^^, "funny" stuff.]  One time when he was over for evening coffee, he mentioned that the water plant wasn't being locked and he wondered "when" [i.e. not if].  Well, within a couple of weeks, a boy went in one night, vandalized the place; among other things tossing a computer, and taking a dump into a water tank.  Result was a 3 or 4 day BWA ... all in all not too big a deal [compared to the long term ones].

Owen - Posted - 10/06/2023:  09:43:08


Fwiw, one of our colleagues on a fly-in  was from Cameroon.  Re. "third world," with a head shake he'd chuckle/scoff and remark: "They have NO idea."



Re. "how long to fix," in another instance there was a water line break.  Repairs couldn't start for 2 or 3 days, because the backhoe operator was drinking.   A not-uncommon observation on the fly-ins was, "It's a whole different world."  [Lots of good reminiscing though. yes ]


Edited by - Owen on 10/06/2023 09:59:09

STUD figmo Al - Posted - 10/07/2023:  04:49:02


Personaly..i knew nothing of this part of history..till this thread popped up..

Thankyou to the OP.. Paul..

It seems to me to not be the only place n time in history..that something like this has happened..

Wer'nt..there some schools in Irland that had large graves sites of childern..?

N..as pointed out..other indigenous..peoples being..or have been..poorly treated..


History repeats..?

steve davis - Posted - 10/07/2023:  09:28:53


The europeans spread their goodness throughout the world.

Paul R - Posted - 10/08/2023:  02:44:21


Thanks for the acknowledgement, Al. Just FWIW, I bought my tee on the Ongwanada reserve. It's at least a conversation starter, and one has to start somewhere. The reserves are, of course, the places where FNs were relocated after treaties were signed (just how fairly those treaties were negotiated is another topic) - treaties supposedly between sovereign nations (hence our "FN" term).

BTW, going over some of the TRC recommendations, the feds have listed various budget measures. Just a few:
- Budget 2021 is providing $1 billion over 5 years, starting in 2021 to 2022, with $118.7 million ongoing to increase funding for the FNCFS program to support the well-being of Indigenous children and families.
- Budget 2019 invested $1.2 billion over 3 years to ensure that First Nations children continue to have access to the services they need through Jordan's Principle. Given that this initiative is demand-driven, further funding was allocated for a total of $2.36 billion committed to Jordan's Principle since 2016.
- As part of the July 2020 Economic and Fiscal Snapshot, the Government of Canada committed over $542 million over 5 years, starting in 2020 to 2021, broken down as follows:
. nearly $10 million over 2 years to support First Nations, Inuit and Métis engagement to advance the co-development of the implementation process, including the establishment of and participation in distinction-based governance engagement mechanisms
. $425 million over 5 years to support capacity-building activities that would enable First Nations, Inuit and Métis groups to work within and across their communities to build strong foundations for a successful transition toward the exercise of jurisdiction
. nearly $73 million over 5 years to support Indigenous governing bodies for, and participation in, coordination agreement discussions
. over $35 million for internal services at Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada and Indigenous Services Canada in the national capital region and in the regions to support the above 3 activities

That's just a part of the "child welfare" section. Just some info that's out there. YMMV.

Owen - Posted - 10/08/2023:  08:23:26


Paul, what think you of my proposed starting place... a clear/unequivocal statement from leaders and influential people as to whether it's equality or inequality that's a prime objective?



I also wonder about "start somewhere" ... my wife and I were largely unaware ot the mind-boggling breadth/extent of "the Indian industry*" until we came across several Indigenous/FN newspapers/publications free for the taking at airports where flights to the remote(r) places originate.   Apparently the "start" took place some time back and it's 'way more advanced/developed than we'd realized  ... but where the process is headed, I can't say for sure.



* = FN as well as non-FN, so I'm cautiously optimistic.  yes



[Not that anybody asked, but I hope/trust that it is, or will eventually be, headed for equality, though my crystal ball says that that's maybe a century of more off ... with a lot of needless suffering (?) in the meantime.]

BanjoLink - Posted - 10/08/2023:  08:31:30


quote:

Originally posted by Paul R

Thanks for the acknowledgement, Al. Just FWIW, I bought my tee on the Ongwanada reserve. It's at least a conversation starter, and one has to start somewhere. The reserves are, of course, the places where FNs were relocated after treaties were signed (just how fairly those treaties were negotiated is another topic) - treaties supposedly between sovereign nations (hence our "FN" term).



BTW, going over some of the TRC recommendations, the feds have listed various budget measures. Just a few:

- Budget 2021 is providing $1 billion over 5 years, starting in 2021 to 2022, with $118.7 million ongoing to increase funding for the FNCFS program to support the well-being of Indigenous children and families.

- Budget 2019 invested $1.2 billion over 3 years to ensure that First Nations children continue to have access to the services they need through Jordan's Principle. Given that this initiative is demand-driven, further funding was allocated for a total of $2.36 billion committed to Jordan's Principle since 2016.

- As part of the July 2020 Economic and Fiscal Snapshot, the Government of Canada committed over $542 million over 5 years, starting in 2020 to 2021, broken down as follows:

. nearly $10 million over 2 years to support First Nations, Inuit and Métis engagement to advance the co-development of the implementation process, including the establishment of and participation in distinction-based governance engagement mechanisms

. $425 million over 5 years to support capacity-building activities that would enable First Nations, Inuit and Métis groups to work within and across their communities to build strong foundations for a successful transition toward the exercise of jurisdiction

. nearly $73 million over 5 years to support Indigenous governing bodies for, and participation in, coordination agreement discussions

. over $35 million for internal services at Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs Canada and Indigenous Services Canada in the national capital region and in the regions to support the above 3 activities



That's just a part of the "child welfare" section. Just some info that's out there. YMMV.






Let me guess Paul ........ like here in the US the majority of those billions will go to high paid administrators and employees of the various government agencies tasked with actually doing something for the people they are supposed to be helping.  Pretty much the same reason that our public schools take twice as much to run as private schools ........ top heavy bureaucracy!

Paul R - Posted - 10/08/2023:  12:07:47


Guess away, John. It's still just a guess until you can bring the receipts. But I can cite, from someone who was there, how a private school can foster a poisonous atmosphere. Or, from personal experience, how a private school can be slow to progress.

Asking about "equality or inequality" in this situation seems like asking how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Or asking what the definition of "is" is. I'm a "maudit anglais" from Montreal. Issues of "equality/inequality" have been rampant in Quebec from long before I existed and still continue. The "answer" may depend upon your point of view, often framed by your ethnicity. And if one asks the question, I think it's incumbent upon the asker to define the terms, in this case with specifics/examples.

Owen - Posted - 10/08/2023:  13:10:20


Paul, methinks you simply want to skirt the issue, but I'll play along.  MY take on equality is things being at a point where it [i.e. race, heritage, ancestry] matters not .... i.e. what diff does it make?* ... i.e. who cares?*   To me economic opportunity ranks near the top of whatever list of aspects [health, education, treatment within the legal system, housing, etc., etc., etc] one wants to consider, but I figure it's all intertwined. 



From what I can see with much of our current leadership [on all sides, political and non-political] I suspect we might be at the "things getting worse before they'll get better" stage, but without knowing what the objective is, I can't be sure.  If, after the healing and reconciliation and whatever other initiatives (?) are in play come to fruition, we still think race/ancestry/heritage are important factors, then I won't be viewing the programs/legislation/initiatives/etc. as being particularly successful.  [Be forewarned, I'm about to use [ ] to denote an aside: affirmative action is fine by me, so long as it's not a permanent strategy.]   But, I do concede that $$$ can cloud an issue and have an effect on peoples' thinking, and as has been mentioned, there's mucho $$$ at stake.



Now that I've given my take on equality, I fully expect there to be a flood of others reciprocating.



Sorry to post such baffling stuff ... what you see is what you get. wink



* = who cares? ... or did it matter? ... that the three musketeers I previously mentioned were Metis,  Eskimo/Ukrainian parents, and WAS(P) ancestry.  [Those are rhetorical questions; to us it sure as hello didn't matter.... take our situation and multiply it by however million is necessary... it's doable if the will ( dare I say goal?) is there.]



Btw, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin?


Edited by - Owen on 10/08/2023 13:29:18

chuckv97 - Posted - 10/08/2023:  13:27:38


Some quotes from the past:

“Lament for Confederation
When I fought to protect my land and my home, I was called a savage. When I neither understood nor welcomed his way of life, I was called lazy. When I tried to rule my people, I was stripped of my authority.

Chief Dan George, July 1, 1967
We have collected a few statements, and one letter, from Prime Minister Macdonald relating to Indigenous Peoples. In our research, we found a great many sites with quotes by Macdonald as he was considered a great orator, but the lists of quotes did not contain any of the following:

1.
Sir, We are looking anxiously for your report as to Indian titles both within Manitoba and without; and as to the best means of extinguishing [terminating] the Indian titles in the valley of Saskatchewan. Would you kindly give us your views on that point, officially and unofficially? We should take immediate steps to extinguish the Indian titles somewhere in the Fertile Belt in the valley of Saskatchewan, and open it for settlement. There will otherwise be an influx of squatters who will seize upon the most eligible positions and greatly disturb the symmetry [organization] of future surveys.

1870 (a letter)
2.
When the school is on the reserve, the child lives with its parents, who are savages, and though he may learn to read and write, his habits and training mode of thought are Indian. He is simply a savage who can read and write. It has been strongly impressed upon myself, as head of the Department, that Indian children should be withdrawn as much as possible from the parental influence, and the only way to do that would be to put them in central training industrial schools where they will acquire the habits and modes of thought of white men.”

Owen - Posted - 10/08/2023:  14:08:54


Paul, are the francophones and the non-francophones held in the same regard in Kweebeck? ...treated with the ame respect [or lack of respect]? ... have the same opportunities?   If they are, then to me it's probably a pretty good example of equality. If they aren't, then to me it's a pretty good example of inequality.  Is there but one set of regulations/policies for everybody regardless of heritage/ancestry? 


Edited by - Owen on 10/08/2023 14:11:34

steve davis - Posted - 10/08/2023:  16:52:30


I think extra help for the indigenous people is a good thing,but I also think all education should be free'
More community involvement much like the way we used to study with people of our community for our merit badges.
I'm very into apprenticeships.

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