Ybanjo - Posted - 09/22/2023:  09:14:51

I'm hoping for a quick and easy answer to this.... How can I change a song to a minor key. Let's keep is as simple as possible & assume we're talking about a tune that has 3 chords plus the relative minor G,C,D,Em for instance. How do I change the key to Am, for instance??

Sunrise Lee - Posted - 09/22/2023:  09:36:00

You could try throwing an E7 before the Amin chord.

Alex Z - Posted - 09/22/2023:  09:36:40

Am, Dm, Emajor.

The "relative minor" is no longer operative.  Fmajor would be triad using the same scale notes as A minor, although the flavor of the chord would sound different.  Can experiment with various F and F# chords to get the sound you are looking for.

Alex Z - Posted - 09/22/2023:  09:59:16

If you're talking about playing the song in the key of G and then continuing playing and start playing something in the key of Aminor, this is called "modulation."

As Sunrise Lee noted, the usual pivot chord would be E or E7, just before the Aminor.  The question is, how to get to E?

For simple folk/country tunes, often the sequence is G  E7  Am.  Go directly from G to E the pivot chord.

Other ways may go a longer route, such as G  D  E7  Am.

How the sequence of chords is "voiced" -- meaning mostly what we hear as the high note and the low note -- affects how the smoothness of the transition is hear.

While a classical composer may go through several connecting chords on the way from G to Aminor, we usually don't hear this in popular music.

Ybanjo - Posted - 09/22/2023:  10:06:29

I must not be making my thoughts clear. For an example, I want to take a song that is in the key of G, and uses the chords G, C, D, Em. To convert the song to the key of Am, I would switch all G chords to Am, but what would the other chords be switched to??

b4idie - Posted - 09/22/2023:  11:03:11

I don't pretend to be an expert on anything but from my guitar playing days If I wanted to use Am as a key [tonic] I would use E7 [for the dominant 7th] and Dm [Dminor as the sub-dominant]. We thought of chord progression in terms of tonic [Am], dominant [E7], and sub-dominant [Dm]. Music across guitar genres is so different that this nomenclature may not be acceptable but it should work out musically.

Sunrise Lee - Posted - 09/22/2023:  11:11:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ybanjo

I must not be making my thoughts clear. For an example, I want to take a song that is in the key of G, and uses the chords G, C, D, Em. To convert the song to the key of Am, I would switch all G chords to Am, but what would the other chords be switched to??

---

Ybanjo, it seems like you are asking to reharmonize the song from the key of G to Am.  Depending on your level of theory I'm not sure the answer will be simple or not.  Changing from a major key to another major key is simple, changing to a minor key is a little more involved but can be a fun exercise.  So just for clarity are you looking to use the same melody over a minor progression?  It will change the flavor of the song a bit.

Sunrise Lee - Posted - 09/22/2023:  11:37:41

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Z

Am, Dm, Emajor.

The "relative minor" is no longer operative.  Fmajor would be triad using the same scale notes as A minor, although the flavor of the chord would sound different.  Can experiment with various F and F# chords to get the sound you are looking for.

---

This...

If you didn't want to change the melody (scale steps), you could play the melody in the Key of F, and use a progression like Am Gm Edim F.  There are other chords you could use as well.

sean curran - Posted - 09/22/2023:  11:45:56

Alex already mentioned the chords: G becomes Am, as you also already mentioned, C becomes Dm, and D becomes E major. The Em becomes Fm as far as I'm concerned, I tried it with Travel On and it worked. Try it with your song. The harmonic feel changes quite a bit with the minor shift, but I believe those are the chords properly transposed.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 09/22/2023:  11:55:30

If you just want to transpose

Chords in Keys

 

Sunrise Lee - Posted - 09/22/2023:  13:22:03

quote:

---

Originally posted by sean curran

Alex already mentioned the chords: G becomes Am, as you also already mentioned, C becomes Dm, and D becomes E major. The Em becomes Fm as far as I'm concerned, I tried it with Travel On and it worked. Try it with your song. The harmonic feel changes quite a bit with the minor shift, but I believe those are the chords properly transposed.

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Depending on the melody it isn’t that simple.  If you are playing the melody as written in G major (harmonized) then Dmin, E, and Fm would be outside of the harmonized scale and the notes could clash.

If you changed the key from G to the key of  Amin then you might have to change the melody to accommodate the minor 3^rd of the one chord as the original melody could be derived from the major aspects of the G major chord.

The way that I arrived at the chords was basic reharmonization of the G major chord progression.  I used Bm Em F#dmin G.  Bm (III chord) would work as the first chord in this progression as it has the same notes as its triad as the top three notes a harmonized Gmaj 7 chord has.  G major 7 would be spelled G, B, D, F#; Bm would be spelled B, D, and F#.  They have the B, D, F# in common. The melody would fit over the Bm chord because it worked over the G major chord.  And so on with the other chords of the progression.

Using that logic I looked at what major scale contained Am as the III chord, F major, and used the same chords steps from within that scale to get Am Gm Edim F.  So if you wanted to play in the key of Amin (Phrygian in this case) and keep the melody exactly the same from a scale step perspective this would work.  Just play the melody as written in F.  Of course, there are also other substitutions you could make, as I said this is basic.

This would allow you to change a song in the key of G, and uses the Chords G C D Em, and convert the song to the key of Am without altering the scale steps in the melody.

It's been a slow day at work ??.  I’m enjoying the discussion.

sean curran - Posted - 09/22/2023:  13:37:01

If you transpose the melody from G to Am, then you are not under any circumstances looking for chords that belong in a harmonized G major scale. You'd only be doing that if you hadn't transposed it.

Sunrise Lee - Posted - 09/22/2023:  14:05:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by sean curran

If you transpose the melody from G to Am, then you are not under any circumstances looking for chords that belong in a harmonized G major scale. You'd only be doing that if you hadn't transposed it.

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Correct.  I'm saying that you may have to change the notes in the melody (scale steps) if you go from the key of G to Amin.

banjoak - Posted - 09/22/2023:  15:12:55

It might be easier to first think of how would you change the song, keeping the same tonic... as from G major to G minor. Then transpose after (say up 2 to A)

Basic way is just going by scale difference, flat third, sixth, seventh. This can be applied to melody; and chords. Changing G/C/D/Em (I, IV, V, vi) to Gm/Cm/Dm/Eb. (then can transpose that all up 2 frets to A)

That said it might work that well musically.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 09/23/2023:  04:44:31

I just tried this with "Wagon Wheel", and found this to be pretty good:

Am E F Dm
Am E Dm Dm (where each chord symbol represents one measure).

Ybanjo - Posted - 09/23/2023:  09:55:06

Well, obviously my wish for a simple solution isn't possible. I was hoping for some sort of straightforward transposing of chords. Not the case, unfortunately. I have a small understanding of music theory but am lost on most of these discussions. I've known other players to play a song in a minor key and just wanted to be able to do that. First song I remember hearing was "You Are My Sunshine", played in Am. Very haunting sound.

Guess I need to just forget it.

Alex Z - Posted - 09/23/2023:  10:42:10

"assume we're talking about a tune that has 3 chords plus the relative minor G,C,D,Em for instance. How do I change the key to Am"

"my wish for a simple solution isn't possible. I was hoping for some sort of straightforward transposing of chords"

Not only is it possible, the answer has already been given!  It was a simple question, and it has a simple answer.  

"Am, Dm, Emajor.

"The "relative minor" is no longer operative.  Fmajor would be triad using the same scale notes as A minor, although the flavor of the chord would sound different."

Play in A minor in good health!  

Ybanjo - Posted - 09/23/2023:  12:13:11

I admit that I'm not very skilled at music theory, and I still don't understand how C becomes Dm or D becomes Emaj.

I used the chords in the key of G just as an example, but ideally I would love to be able to shift any key to a minor. At this point I'm not getting it well enough to do that. Suppose I wanted to transpose to Gm instead?? Sorry but I just don't get it yet.

Alex Z - Posted - 09/23/2023:  13:43:25

To understand transposition , it helps greatly to first understand intervals and scales.  Triad chords are built from that.

I don't think that one can get all that information from posted replies, since replies tend to be more how each person understands, rather than an organized sequential presentation of knowledge. 

 

Wish I had a "learn it yourself" theory book I could recommend, but all my books were part of music school courses and they take some direction and time to decipher. 

 

Maybe others might have a recommendation. 

Edited by - Alex Z on 09/23/2023 13:43:49

banjoak - Posted - 09/23/2023:  14:40:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ybanjo

I admit that I'm not very skilled at music theory, and I still don't understand how C becomes Dm or D becomes Emaj.



I used the chords in the key of G just as an example, but ideally I would love to be able to shift any key to a minor. At this point I'm not getting it well enough to do that. Suppose I wanted to transpose to Gm instead?? Sorry but I just don't get it yet.

---

Your original question was transposing the song key (G to A); and changing the mode (major to minor); which are 2 separate functions. As I answered changing from G major to G minor; but I'll try break down a little more  When looking at a key/mode scale... note the difference of  whole step and half step spacing in major vs minor. For chords, can also count and assign those 1 thru 7, based on the root's scale step. To harmonize the chord; helps to know how chords are made), to decide if major or minor can initially just follow the notes that belong in the scale (though chord tones can deviate from scale).

how C becomes Dm 

In key of G major, the C (maj) is the fourth chord.

In key of G minor fourth chord would be a C minor;

Transpose that up from G to A, and the fourth chord becomes a D minor.  

D becomes Emaj.

Similar, but a little different. 

In key of G major, the D (maj) is the fifth chord.

In key of G minor fifth chord would be a D minor (or D major);

Transpose that up from G to A, and the fifth chord becomes a E minor (or E major).

The fourth chord becomes In key of G minor because the G minor scale has an Eb note rather than an E note. One thing might notice in this latter part of fifth chord is a little difficult to explain in brief post. If look scale notes of minor mode, seems like at the fifth chord should be minor (F note in key of G minor; so Dm); and you could use that. But often folks find it just fits better to keep the fifth chord as major. Without going into long explanation of why, can just listen and decide which you think fits best; which is what it comes down to... how it sounds; what pleases the ear.

Edited by - banjoak on 09/23/2023 14:45:37

Alex Z - Posted - 09/23/2023:  17:06:51

It's extremely difficult to learn common music theory from only written materials.  Notes and chords have have functions, not just names, and hearing how the functions work is basic learning tool.

Can't learn to play a banjo from a book without hearing the notes.  Can't understand music theory without hearing the intervals, scales, and the functions of notes and chords.

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 09/25/2023:  02:04:17

I think the crux of the matter is that if you simply play minor versions of the chords, you will have to adjust the melody to fit the altered scale. The third and seventh notes (B and F#) in the G major scale would need to be flattened to form the G minor scale, but depending on the song those notes might not be that prominent in the tune.

An alternative is to try the relative minor key to G, which is Em, where the notes of the scale are unchanged from G major, but start and end on the E note rather than G. That maybe what you have heard others doing.

If you are just after a different, more archaic sound, then you could try playing out of sawmill tuning (gDGCD), but stay in G major. They call this Mountain Minor because it is neither major nor minor, but sounds like a minor, though you have to slightly alter the chords to take account of that recurring c note on the b string.

banjoak - Posted - 09/25/2023:  19:29:22

Most of us assumed the OP had meant altering the melody from major to minor; (then transpose up a step).

What Jerry Hatrick mentioins is valid point, as a possibility, that you could simply reharmonize with alternate chords; thus giving a minor feel; I have done that and can work. But overall not necessarily simpler or as straightforward. (nor understanding explanation why)

Certainly is the case; on some tunes, (like mentioned You are My Sunshine) might be able to just fill in relative minor(s), the I chord the relative minor vi; might give a bit of that. However, on many songs it might actually be even more complicated, involves more theory understanding, as the melody would involve more non-chord tones and/or make for more complex chord extensions and progressions.

For example, lot of major key have strong fifth notes; right away that makes the home chord relative minor a 7 (if was G; now Em7). As go through melody, similar issues, and while might find chord that works sort of, might also take away from feel of progression. As Ira pointed out, notes and chords having functions (not simply what can fit, math works out)... part is the function of movement, cadence, and resolve.

Alex Z - Posted - 09/25/2023:  20:42:04

"You Are My Sunshine" in G major.

You are my (G) sunshine, my only sunshine.

You make me (C) hap-pee, when skies are (G) gray.

You'll never (C) know dear, how much I (G) love you.

Until you (G) take my (D) sunshine a-(G)-way.

"You Are My Sunshine" in A minor.

You are my (Am) sunshine, my only sunshine.

You make me (Dm) hap-pee, when skies are (Am) gray.

You'll never (D) know dear, how much I (Am) love you.

Until you (Am) take my (Emajor!) sunshine a-(Am)-way.

That's how G, C, D chords in the key of G major become Am, Dm, E chords in the key of A minor. 

Now, you need to sing the melody of the song in A minor too.  Can't just sing it in A major, or G major, or G minor, or B minor, or E minor.

As mentioned, it is difficult to understand this without hearing it.  If you could hear it, would take 90-120 seconds to understand how to sing it in A minor with the A minor chords and what the principles of the chord changes are between G major and A minor.

In fact, since the poster is familiar with this song in both major and minor, maybe fool around a bit on the banjo to first get the G major chords and sing it in G major, and then change to the A minor chords and figure out the sung melody in A minor.   To paraphrase an old saying, "a note heard is worth a thousand words." 

Edited by - Alex Z on 09/25/2023 20:44:56

Texasbanjo - Posted - 09/26/2023:  04:45:04

I was working on Autumn Leaves song yesterday. It's in Am and I played it in open G tuning using Am chords. Works just fine. You do have to figure out some new chords if you're not used to them. Dm is easy to finger IF you know what the chord is.

Ybanjo - Posted - 09/28/2023:  06:59:34

You guys have given me a ton of information. Not sure how much I fully understand, but I'm trying to read each post carefully & understand as I go along. As of now, I still can't figure out how to convert a song in any major key to any minor key. It's obviously much more complex than I was hoping. And it might be easier than I'm initially thinking right now. Obviously I need to study it much more.

Thanks for all the responses. I knew there were some serious musical folks on here.

A Drum On A Stick - Posted - 09/28/2023:  08:40:56

Maybe this will chart will help you visualize it Ybanjo. I'm no theory master, but I believe this is what is being explained above.

Step 1: Choose the appropriate key that the song is currently in
Step 2: Convert the chords to numbers using the chart
Step 3: Choose a new key
Step 4: Convert from the numbers you found above back into chords

So for the above You are my sunshine example. It's in the key of G. Following along that row we find that G, C, D is 1,4,5.

If we choose Am then 1,4,5 works out to Am, Dm, Em

 

Ybanjo - Posted - 09/28/2023:  08:51:16

Ian, now that's something I can understand. However it doesn't sound like it works in all cases. For instance, Alex used a E in place of Em. If it was as simple as shifting with that chart, I can do that. And maybe that could be used to get pretty close and then fine tune by ear??

Edited by - Ybanjo on 09/28/2023 08:55:46

Banjoezzie - Posted - 09/29/2023:  13:17:02

This is how we play it in Am. My friend a music theory type person changed for us. We just sing it without sheet music so cannot advise how to pick out melody other than just singing and finding note usually within the chord.

You are my sunshine Am

 

banjoak - Posted - 09/29/2023:  16:26:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ybanjo

Ian, now that's something I can understand. However it doesn't sound like it works in all cases. For instance, Alex used a E in place of Em. If it was as simple as shifting with that chart, I can do that. And maybe that could be used to get pretty close and then fine tune by ear??

---

It's one of the confusing aspects many have with minor keys; there are few different flavors.

The Natural/Aeolian, is relative minor to a corresponding major scale, using same notes; and chords are made only from that parent key. or example A minor using the notes of C major; which has a G note in it; thus the V chord would be Em.

There is also Harmonic minor. Bit harder to explain but in this, one aspect it uses the idea (as in major); that leading tone and dominant V7 back to I, that gives a stronger feel like wants to resolve back up to the "home" tonic of A. Thus the V would be major. (the 7 adds that push)

Will mention that many of those Aeolian tunes, might find use a VII chord instead of V in how it turns works better; (i.e. G major in key of A minor); as can see very similar to Em7; but slightly different overall feel. 

Yes, use your ears. IMO, don't worry about getting some "right" answer according to chart/book/rules... just listen to the different possible ones and decide what think fits best for the way you want to express the tune. 

hamerongen - Posted - 09/29/2023:  19:52:46

In case you haven't come across this already, it may be helpful to know that each major key has a relative minor key that has the same notes and chords. (Scroll down on this page for a diagram showing major keys -- outer circle -- with their relative minor key -- inner circle: pianotheoryexercises.com/scale...e-fifths/ )

The relative major of A minor is C major. The chords are the same for both keys, but their functions differ.

For the key of C major the chords are:
1: C major
2: D minor
3: E minor
4: F major
5: G major
6: A minor
7: B diminished

For the key of A minor, there are the same chords as for the key of C major, but the vi chord in the key of C (A minor) becomes the one chord and the others follow:
1: A minor
2: B diminished
3: C major
4: D minor
5: E minor
6: F major
7: G major

To change from G major to A minor, figure out the Nashville number for each chord in the key of G and use those numbers to choose the chords in A minor from the list above, ie, In the key of G: G, C and D are the 1, 4 and 5 chords respectively. In A minor the 1, 4 and 5 chords are A minor, D minor and E minor.

Gracie Terzian has some very helpful videos for understanding basic music theory. Her video on chords in minor keys is here: youtube.com/watch?v=E2PrkyJImsM. She starts with reviewing different kinds of minor keys (as mentioned above, there are several. The above chords apply to the natural minor key.) To go directly to her presentation on chords of minor keys start at about 5:30 minutes.

dlm7507 - Posted - 09/30/2023:  04:44:36

1 4 5 6 diatonic modal chords:
Maj G C D Em
Mix D G Am Bm
Dor Am D Em F#°
Aeo Em Am Bm C

Am relative to G is Dorian minor
Em relative to G is Aeolian minor

Wouldn't it be cleaner to play it in Em than A Dorian minor?

Alex Z - Posted - 09/30/2023:  07:04:41

The poster wants to play/sing the tune in the (the common modern) key of A minor.  This is different from a mode with the tonal center of A or the key of E minor.

G, C, D  chords become  Am, Dm, E.  

Still have to figure out the melody notes, though.  

dlm7507 - Posted - 09/30/2023:  10:00:30

Lots of music played on the banjo including modern music is Dorian minor as well as Aeolian minor, and for that matter Mountain minor where there is no 6th scale degree note.



My suggestion was just about playing the relative minor of G Major. If there is some reason why he wants to play in Am with G that's fine. I'm not trying to be a mode policeman. From the question it seemed that the questioner might not realize that Am is not the natural minor of G Major and might be better served playing it in Em.

Edited by - dlm7507 on 09/30/2023 10:02:16

Ybanjo - Posted - 09/30/2023:  10:08:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by dlm7507

My suggestion was just about playing the relative minor of G Major. If there is some reason why he wants to play in Am with G that's fine. I'm not trying to be a mode policeman. From the question it seemed that the questioner might not realize that Am is not the natural minor of G Major and might be better served playing it in Em.

---

The key selected were just "for examples".  I just picked G major and Am since those are more familiar with most of us, at least me.  I was just wondering about how to shift ANY major key to ANY minor key.

I'm learning a lot from all the comments.  And I sure appreciate you guys taking the time to try to beat it in my thick skull.  I do like music theory and probably know just enough to make it interesting to learn more.  I'm a retired engineer by trade, so I like to know "why" and "how" things work.

bosborne - Posted - 09/30/2023:  10:30:22

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ybanjo

I'm hoping for a quick and easy answer to this.... How can I change a song to a minor key. Let's keep is as simple as possible & assume we're talking about a tune that has 3 chords plus the relative minor G,C,D,Em for instance. How do I change the key to Am, for instance??

---

The Nashville numbering system really helps with transposing to other keys. You're starting with a song in G, and it has the 1, 4, 5, and 6 chords. The question is "what are the 1, 4, 5, and 6 chords in Am?" The answer is Am, Dm, Em, and F. Try to think in Nashville numbers and keys, not chords. 

Ybanjo - Posted - 09/30/2023:  10:35:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by bosborne

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ybanjo

I'm hoping for a quick and easy answer to this.... How can I change a song to a minor key. Let's keep is as simple as possible & assume we're talking about a tune that has 3 chords plus the relative minor G,C,D,Em for instance. How do I change the key to Am, for instance??

---

The Nashville numbering system really helps with transposing to other keys. You're starting with a song in G, and it has the 1, 4, 5, and 6 chords. The question is "what are the 1, 4, 5, and 6 chords in Am?" The answer is Am, Dm, Em, and F. Try to think in Nashville numbers and keys, not chords. 

 

 

---

That's the main thing I have deduced from the comments.  And I have a good understanding of the Nashville numbering system.  I use it constantly to transpose major keys.   I just didn't know how to do it with minors.  I think that will get me very close to something usable.  And then listen to see which chords might need a little touch-up.  Beyond that I'm not sure what else to do.

NotABanjoYoda - Posted - 09/30/2023:  10:45:37

Be careful. Retired engineers often fall down the theory rabbithole and never practice enough to get good. Basic music theory is handy and takes a couple days. Getting good at playing takes years of actual practice and you wont remember any music theory without practicing it.

Ybanjo - Posted - 09/30/2023:  10:49:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by NotABanjoYoda

Be careful. Retired engineers often fall down the theory rabbithole and never practice enough to get good. Basic music theory is handy and takes a couple days. Getting good at playing takes years of actual practice and you wont remember any music theory without practicing it.

---

Not too worried about that.  I already have quite a few years of practice.  I do fully understand what you're saying.  Way back when I first started learning to play my teacher quite often told me that I was over-thinking it!    Sometimes she would say, "just listen to the tune and play the music".  It took me a while to really understand what she actually meant.

Alex Z - Posted - 09/30/2023:  11:09:19

Mr. dlm7507 -- sorry if I sounded critical. I thought the poster wanted to play in A minor, but now it appears that the poster is looking for general rules for transposing keys. 

 

Maybe we should take it in two steps:  (1) transpose to another major key, such as G major to A major, and (2) transpose from the second major key to the minor, such as A major to A minor. 

 

#1 removes the mode complication.  #2 retains the g# accidental if the poster simply wants to sing the same song in a modern minor key, rather than sing a different song that might in fact fit into  one of the modes. 

dlm7507 - Posted - 09/30/2023:  11:15:24

This might be helpful to you. Check the boxes for the notes in the scale that you selected. Key changes apply to scales that use those notes and those notes only. That is the basis for my comment, and it is based upon the NNS which is mode sensitive. I just created it today so it may be volatile or vanish one day.

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d...p=sharing

dlm7507 - Posted - 09/30/2023:  11:19:33

No problem Alex Z we were trying to understand just exactly what was being asked. We don't all think about things in the same ways to get the same answers.

Alex Z - Posted - 09/30/2023:  11:51:01

"We don't all think about things in the same ways to get the same answers."

Amen, brother.

dlm7507 - Posted - 09/30/2023:  12:10:51

NotABanjoYoda "Be careful. Retired engineers often fall down the theory rabbithole and never practice enough to get good. Basic music theory is handy and takes a couple days. Getting good at playing takes years of actual practice and you wont remember any music theory without practicing it."

How did you know? ;0)