PIzzaPastaMafia - Posted - 08/10/2023:  07:33:31

Hi, first post and absolute beginner. I haven't even bought my tenor banjo yet (and also considering tenor guitar).

I grew up in Italy in the 1970s/80s. Over there, the rule for "serious" musicians was that you had to waste 2 years learning "solfeggio" inside out, then you take your diploma in solfeggio, and only then, you would start touching an instrument. I have heard that this is changing in Italy.

I skipped all that and started playing guitar in all its shapes and forms (acoustic, classical, solid body, arch top) and only a few years later I did a bit of solfeggio with a private teacher (who said to me: "How come you want to start solfeggio AFTER playing an instrument)?

Then life interfered with my dreams and I quit both solfeggio and guitar.

I really want to start playing the tenor in CGDA but I also want to catch up with music theory so that I will speed up reading from a partiture one day.

Question: as written music for banjo is in Anglo-saxon notation (ABCDEFG vs LA SI DO RE MI FA SOL), would "solfeggio" or "fixed do solfege" be a help or a hindrance? I have no idea how people can learn reading music without a separate discipline. I live in UK and nobody has given me a complete answer on this topic.

I am not aiming at being a top professional, but I don't want to repeat my youth mistakes and missing out on opportunities because I couldn't read music.

I am sorry if all this sounds confusing because I am indeed confused.

OldFrets - Posted - 08/10/2023:  07:58:24

Short answer: no.

Complete answer: no.

It's never a bad thing to learn a new skill, including styles of notation, but solfege is really just a simplified naming convention for intervals (fourth, seventh, etc. ). Music books are unlikely to discuss it in depth, and professional musicians rarely if ever use it (at least in English-speaking countries).

ChunoTheDog - Posted - 08/10/2023:  08:01:08

You answered your own question...

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/10/2023:  08:20:41

If you're learning a stringed instrument, are you planning to learn from tablature or musical notation? Both are easy to learn, so it wouldn't be a hindrance to learn both.

There are numerous free theory books on the net that show you how to read musical notation. Most are for piano, but there are probably some for guitar.

A beginner instruction book for guitar will show you how to read tablature.

You can also learn from listening, watching and doing and don't have to have any of the above.

Different people learn differently. Figure out what's easiest for you and go for that one way.

thisoldman - Posted - 08/10/2023:  08:24:04

Welcome to the Hangout. After doing some internet reading, my interpretation of "solfeggio" involves some ear/aural training. And "partiture" involves reading sheet music. If that is incorrect, ignore what follows.



I am a more of a visual learner, so I learned primarily by reading tabulature. Why not standard notation? I learned to read standard notation when I picked up my first stringed instument, a guitar. But then I picked up some other stringed instruments to try out and it just got too confusing. Discovered tabulature and that works well for me.



I picked up music theory as I needed too. I can pick out a few simple tunes by ear (Amazing Grace, I'll Fly Away), but I don't have the aural skills to listen to other tunes and figure out the chords/melody notes by ear. I will say that playing the banjo has improved my listening skills a little bit.



I REALLY wish I could learn by ear, but that's not how my brain works the best. Even with my poor aural skills (and lack of training) I was still able to learn to play the banjo. But not having the aural skills does not allow me to learn to play new tunes (without tabulature), and it prevents me from trying improvising on the spot.



So, long story short, I agree that you don't HAVE to have formal aural training or learn to read sheet music before you jump into banjo playing. Both, however, would be useful skills to learn/have. And having a good "ear" for music will make you a much better musician than I will ever be.

Edited by - thisoldman on 08/10/2023 08:25:45

PIzzaPastaMafia - Posted - 08/10/2023:  08:39:49

quote:Originally posted by ChunoTheDogYou answered your own question...
How?

PIzzaPastaMafia - Posted - 08/10/2023:  08:41:09

quote:Originally posted by TexasbanjoIf you're learning a stringed instrument, are you planning to learn from tablature or musical notation?

Musical notation. I find tablature confusing.

Knows Picker - Posted - 08/10/2023:  09:10:51

I'd go with a basic chord chart and some three chord songs that you already know fairly well.

Strum!

dfstd - Posted - 08/10/2023:  10:09:40

I know that solfeggio is considered an essential part of musical training in Europe for some types of music. In the U.S., music is rarely taught that way. One just gets an instrument and starts learning to play it. Depending on the style of music, the student might also learn to read either music notation, tablature, or lead sheets with the Nashville number system. In some musical styles, participants are firm believers in learning by ear and discourage reliance on any written system.

This is why your question about whether solfeggio would help-or-hinder you is going to get many "huh?" responses here. I'd say you definitely won't need it and skipping it won't hinder you, but if you want to incorporate it into your learning, it wouldn't do any harm either.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/10/2023:  11:08:19

quote:

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Originally posted by PIzzaPastaMafia

quote:Originally posted by TexasbanjoIf you're learning a stringed instrument, are you planning to learn from tablature or musical notation?



Musical notation. I find tablature confusing.

---

Any new method will probably be confusing.  Actually, tab is very simple and easy to learn.  Find a beginner instruction book and take it from page 1 and you'll get the gist of it quickly and your confusion will be alleviated.

If you prefer musical notation, then do the same thing as I said previously:  find a free theory site on the net and learn what the notes are on a musical staff and take it from there.

Old Hickory - Posted - 08/10/2023:  12:04:53

quote:

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Originally posted by PIzzaPastaMafia

quote: Originally posted by ChunoTheDog; You answered your own question...

How?

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By stating that banjo music is written in standard notation.

So if you intend to use written music as part of learning tenor banjo, why would you bother to learn solfeggio?

I'll guess at an answer: An aim of solfeggio is for you to learn intervals, which are the building blocks of music. That's great for playing by ear. Not so great if the music you'll be learning is written in notation.

I believe it makes sense to learn tenor banjo by whatever method it's most commonly taught. Once you are beyond the absolute beginner stage -- for example, you can read music and play many tunes -- then it might be helpful to begin learning some theory (and solfeggio) to help you understand what you're playing.

I think of this as analogous to how we learn to speak. Do we start with rules of grammar? No. We start by repeating words we hear, then repeating sentences we hear, then putting words into our own sentences (many of them grammatically incorrect). We assimilate the rules of grammar largely by ear. All of this by the time we're 4 years old. Later, when we go to school, we learn the formal rules of our language and start to learn names for the various parts of speech. By the time we're learning any theory of how our language works, we're fluent speakers and literate readers and writers.

Learning an instrument can be the same. Except that a little bit of theory introduced as you go can help. So learn to read notation and where the notes are on the banjo. Learn the chords you're likely to need for the songs you want to play. Later on you can learn the notes in the chords and why the chords have the names they do and why songs use the chords they do and how the key of a song relates to the chords it uses. Just as with language, some of this is theory you can learn after you already can play. It will actually make sense that way, and could improve your ability to play by ear.

Good luck.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 08/10/2023:  12:05:21

Requiring solfeggio before you play anything seems a little extreme, but it makes good sense, as it is based directly upon how we naturally recognize melody (and harmony).

It sure beats the way most beginners get taught in US schools, which starts out by linking one dot on the page with one fingering on the instrument. No wonder there are so many folks who can't play a lick without a chart in front of them, and struggle with the entire concept of playing with style or expression. Playing "by ear" or "by heart" seem to them dark arts or divine gifts, and memorizing a simple piece involves the kind of abstract mental gymnastics most of us would associate with memorizing pi to a hundred decimal places.

Wayne2001 - Posted - 08/10/2023:  12:30:44

As a choir director and jazz guitarist for many years knowing how to read music was necessary and certainly made things easier for me. However, when playing other instruments like pedal steel guitar or banjo I always play by ear or tabs. I think I would find it difficult to play banjo using music notation, knowing music theory and chord construction is always a plus but in my opinion that can be learned without knowing music notation.

Mike Maggard - Posted - 08/10/2023:  13:09:55

PIzzaPastaMafia
First, learning to play tenor banjo was the best musical decision I ever made. Fifth string instruments (IMO) are intuitive and conducive to learning theory. Highly recommend a series of Eddy Davis videos about music as a language.
youtu.be/w7zji-IkBuI
I think there are 12 or 13 videos.
Eddy has an endless collection of songs on YouTube and is an incredible resource.
You obviously have background with your guitar playing as I did so I'll make a few suggestions based on my own personal journey.
Learn to read music, it's not that hard and will help you learn theory organically. IMO tab is very limiting and little is available for tenor banjo.
Learn the tenor banjo fret board. You already know it's tuned CGDA, so you are part of the way there.
I learned how to build chords from the downloadable PDF, BUILD ANY CHORD, ANYWHERE! by Frank Geiger PDF
I hope this is helpful.
YMMV
Mike

banjoak - Posted - 08/10/2023:  18:43:23

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory



So if you intend to use written music as part of learning tenor banjo, why would you bother to learn solfeggio?



I'll guess at an answer: An aim of solfeggio is for you to learn intervals, which are the building blocks of music. That's great for playing by ear. Not so great if the music you'll be learning is written in notation.

The OP is referring to "fixed" solfege. 

Fixed solfege... the "Do" always refers to "C"; and "Sol" always refers to "G"... and so on.  

Moveable solfege is about relative interval relationship - the syllable refers to the scale relation; much like using Roman numeral (I, IV, V7, ii7); or Nashville number system. "Do" refers to the tonic, 1 or I; "Sol" refers to the fifth, 5, V; and so on. Do Re Mi Fa Sol La Ti Do is major scale, Do can be any starting pitch.

There is often an overall confusion beginners often have with names and idea of fixed vs moveable. (for example using capo). The solfege is just mnemonic is rather moot debate whether moveable vs fixed... you won't likely encounter any solfege in the banjo world, nor perhaps in music theory world.

Question: as written music for banjo is in Anglo-saxon notation (ABCDEFG vs LA SI DO RE MI FA SOL), would "solfeggio" or "fixed do solfege" be a help or a hindrance? I have no idea how people can learn reading music without a separate discipline. I live in UK and nobody has given me a complete answer on this topic.

As far as a hindrance... possibly if you think you need or trying to to used that fixed solfege system to apply to other systems... and then trying to involve some extra steps of translation? The bigger question would be why do you need to, is it really helpful?

First, for written using regular staff notation is essentially showing fixed pitch.

There is no solfege nor letter involved in itself.  These are intended to play and sound the same pitch; no matter what call them or how mentally think of them as letter (b,c,d / e, f# / g...); or fixed syllable (ti, do, re / mi, fi / sol...) or moveable solfege ( mi, fa, sol / la. ti / do... ); or can call with any other mnemonic device you want to use. Or can refer to them by color; if find helps you some way (some folks have tried some system like that)

The issue of naming, is more about communicating with others, what note/chord/interval or in explanation of theory,  Can be problematic if using different terms. That said, solfege of either fixed/moveable, is not something gonna much encounter in banjo world (nor music theory explanations). As well might have limitations toward understanding theory.

Rather what will find is most use systems where letter names refer to fixed pitch (note name like piano middle C, or key name). Number names refer to moveable relationship,. interval position or relation, such as tonic, third, fifth, sixth... or chords, I, IV, V7, or NNS 1, 4, 5. Both are widespread and good to know, useable for different reasons; the latter for is great for grasping aspects of music theory.

IMO, might find way less hindrance if just getting rid of fixed mindset of solfege, or altogether, and whatever need to translation; none of it's needed.

*should note that a similar struggle fixed/moveable; conflating fixed letter name with numeric. That is despite using letter names, it's not as fixed pitch, might read staff notation symbols as simply like TAB, where to put fingers, relative to capo. Can be confusing to communicate; or require some translation. 

Edited by - banjoak on 08/10/2023 18:47:51

Old Hickory - Posted - 08/10/2023:  19:26:27

Learn something new every day.

Thanks.