ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  12:29:42

I would like a refund of my $5.50 selling fee and $5.00 and $8.00 fees to extend the ad. Eric's email doesn't work, and neither does the link to report a problem. Worst case I will dispute this with my credit card company

In a nutshell

I sold a banjo on banjo hangout.org. for $275. Luckily I did not ship it, or a refund.

Purchased by David Ander (andervidander@gmail.com)

In a nutshell:

1. David Ander in Indiana. researched his address not found under his name
1a. Address not found period. (1413 N. 13th Street, Lafayette IN 47904 443 424-5075
2. “Cashiers” check received for $1750 not $375
2a. Wants me to send a refund for the difference.
3. Sent from an account not in his name, remitter Donovan Wright
4. Sent from a company in a different state Manchester Packaging Co. St. James MO Tracy Carr who does not work there and has never worked there.
5. David mentions he may want the refund sent to a different address
6. Go to the bank.
7. Bank uses tracking # to determine the check is fraudulent. Different stock, different typeface etc. They say it happens all the time.
8. The USPS tracking # he sent was bogus. Although the envelope looks very authentic. Tracking # not found.
9. Phone # from a different state (cell?)
10. Wells Fargo Sending check to fraud dept.
11. If I had deposited the check, after it bounced they might have closed my account.

See attachment. Happy to answer any questions.

Fraudulent activity

 

mike gregory - Posted - 06/01/2023:  12:56:50

Said it before, and I'll say it again:



"Nothing wrong with a scammer that a thorough autopsy can't cure!"



So very HAPPY that you checked out the check before shipping the banjo.

banjoy - Posted - 06/01/2023:  13:01:25

I am sorry you experienced this but excellent of you to do your due diligence and end it where it did and report that here. This is a very common scam but people do fall for it. Often those checks are "real" in that they reference real accounts but are printed by a scammer. Those will clear and can take months to come back on you, but the will and you'd be on the hook for it all.

I worked for USPS and those fake labels are problematic, because once it's in the mailstream it's like trying to pull a minnow from the ocean. It's delivered before USPS can do anything about it.



Good luck getting any help from Eric though. He's AWOL. I recently had a potential buyer here, who is real and a member here, grossly abuse the feedback system when I refused to sell an item to him so he went and found an item I listed here 13 years ago, which for some reason was still floating out there waiting for feedback (I sold it on eBay and marked it sold) he picked that item and then trashed me in feedback for a sale that never happened for an item that was not for sale. I reported this to a moderator who told me Eric is the only one who can remove fraudulent feedback like that. Never gonna happen, so I will never list anything on any hangout site ever again and have pulled all my ads, past and present. No protection at all, even when a transaction never happened.



Good luck maybe Eric might find time for his website and help his constituents. Not. You might as well go ahead and do the CC dispute, at least they respond to their customer base.



Sorry to pile on, but I too have been ignored for different reasons. But all related to the classifieds here. Good luck resolving this and thanks for sharing this experience as a possible learning moment for others.

Edited by - banjoy on 06/01/2023 13:07:41

woodchips - Posted - 06/01/2023:  13:03:10

Unfortunately this is happening everyday. It happened to me 5 years ago. I never sent my banjo or cashed the check. Too many things from too many directions. Check was from a dead man. Sent from one address wanted overpayment sent to different address. I framed the check so I have something to laugh at every time I see it.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 06/01/2023:  13:08:47

Scammers are not Eric's fault and there have never been any guarantees that your transaction will go as planned. It is your responsibility to evaluate the offer AND the buyer and decide how to proceed. The risk is your own and most adults understand that.

banjoy - Posted - 06/01/2023:  13:13:05

Her complaint here is not about scammers. Her complaint is she paid Eric the classified fees for what ended up being a fraudulent transaction. So she is out-of-pocket those fees, and no money came in. Her request for a refund is reasonable and has tells us here she has been ignored in her attempts to reach out to BHO's owner.

Any normal business cannot charge fees for fraud. This is normally refunded no questions asked. That's what her post is about. She wants her money back from Eric. At minimum the $5.50 selling fee paid after the item sold must be refunded. Eric cannot profit from fraud and should refund her asap. I agree.

Edited by - banjoy on 06/01/2023 13:18:03

NotABanjoYoda - Posted - 06/01/2023:  13:24:35

I saw Eric post on here last week regarding a bho email issue. He was schlange referenced. Maybe now he ll read this.

Bill Rogers - Posted - 06/01/2023:  13:25:22

What doesn’t work about Eric’s email ?p

Texasbanjo - Posted - 06/01/2023:  14:34:04

So sorry you were taken advantage of by a spammer. Just glad you didn't lose your banjo

Unfortunately, you were taken in by a spammer that has been locked out numerous times. He comes back, uses a different name and occasionally finds a sucker (no offense meant) he can scam.

Always check to see if someone is a legitimate member. Check his/her home page. See if it's open or locked. If open, see how long they've been a member. If still in doubt, check my sticky on the Swap Shop for spammers locked out each day. Go here: banjohangout.org/topic/389395. If still in doubt, contact a mod and we'll see what we can find out before you do any business with them.

Eric usually checks this forum daily, so I figure you'll hear from him soon. Patience, he runs another business so he's not on here all the time.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:02:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilovebluegrass

I would like a refund of my $5.50 selling fee and $5.00 and $8.00 fees to extend the ad.

---

Getting back selling fees on a transaction that didn't happen I can understand.

But why do you believe you're entitled to a refund for fees paid to extend the ad? Was the ad extended? If so, you got what you paid for.

As said above, scammers aren't the Hangout's fault. Neither are buyers not wanting your banjo.

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:07:12

I sold the banjo one day after I extended the window for $8.00. So I didn't really get what I paid for. I'll back off the first $5.00 extension, I guess I did get that

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:08:52

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilovebluegrass

I would like a refund of my $5.50 selling fee and $5.00 and $8.00 fees to extend the ad.

---

Getting back selling fees on a transaction that didn't happen I can understand.

But why do you believe you're entitled to a refund for fees paid to extend the ad? Was the ad extended? If so, you got what you paid for.

As said above, scammers aren't the Hangout's fault. Neither are buyers not wanting your banjo.

---

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:10:43

Old Hickory. You could have put your last sentence in a kinder way. e.g. "It's a shame about scammers, and sad if buyers don't want your banjo." You seem to imply it's my fault.

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:12:11

Not sure if this reply made it, but I sold the banjo one day after I paid the $8.00 to extend the ad.

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:14:36

Oh and I removed the ad the same day.

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:26:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy

I am sorry you experienced this but excellent of you to do your due diligence and end it where it did and report that here. This is a very common scam but people do fall for it. Often those checks are "real" in that they reference real accounts but are printed by a scammer. Those will clear and can take months to come back on you, but the will and you'd be on the hook for it all.

I worked for USPS and those fake labels are problematic, because once it's in the mailstream it's like trying to pull a minnow from the ocean. It's delivered before USPS can do anything about it.



Good luck getting any help from Eric though. He's AWOL. I recently had a potential buyer here, who is real and a member here, grossly abuse the feedback system when I refused to sell an item to him so he went and found an item I listed here 13 years ago, which for some reason was still floating out there waiting for feedback (I sold it on eBay and marked it sold) he picked that item and then trashed me in feedback for a sale that never happened for an item that was not for sale. I reported this to a moderator who told me Eric is the only one who can remove fraudulent feedback like that. Never gonna happen, so I will never list anything on any hangout site ever again and have pulled all my ads, past and present. No protection at all, even when a transaction never happened.



Good luck maybe Eric might find time for his website and help his constituents. Not. You might as well go ahead and do the CC dispute, at least they respond to their customer base.



Sorry to pile on, but I too have been ignored for different reasons. But all related to the classifieds here. Good luck resolving this and thanks for sharing this experience as a possible learning moment for others.

---

Thank you. I was able to message Eric on this forum and to sales@banjohangout.org. Eric@banjohangout.org bounces.

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:29:08

Also the check came from a valid company, from a fake employee. I talked to them. They've had 40 of these and I was given the personal email of a postal investigator in charge of this.

Slogo - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:32:05

I do sympathize with you Nancy, it takes more effort and a certain amount of risk selling things online. I have a few banjos that need new homes, but just don't have the time this month to do the foot work. I don't think Eric has ill intent, from my observation he's a bit overextended. I would keep trying to contact.

banjoy - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:38:23

Yes, cashing those checks can get you in real trouble, They are often fake checks using the account numbers of real business accounts, and it can be months before that business discovers the fraud and gets their bank to claw it back. And the clawback eventually goes right back to you.

When I owned and ran my web business, one of my small cottage industry vendors was a husband-and-wife team who hand-made excellent violin and viola cases. His wife got caught up in a scam like that because the fraudster would tell her to keep half the money and send the other half to him. She did that about 1/2 dozen times, the authorities caught up with her and she ended up doing about a year in prison. She was a good person but just got greedy and didn't realize it was all fraud. Free easy money like that was too much for her to l pass up and her husband had no idea. She found out the hard way. I remember the year he had to produce fiddle cases without her, it was rough on him.

You are doing the right thing to deal with postal authorities, if they act that's a pretty heavy hammer they can bring down on these fraudsters.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:48:54

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilovebluegrass

Old Hickory. You could have put your last sentence in a kinder way. e.g. "It's a shame about scammers, and sad if buyers don't want your banjo." You seem to imply it's my fault.

---

I'm implying nothing of the sort.  I'm stating that if an ad doesn't attract buyers that's no reason to want a refund of fees related to it.

I was not aware that the banjo sold one day after extending the ad. But if the transaction happened during the extension period, that strikes me as exactly what you paid for.

Congrats on the sale. I've had a flange in the classifieds for weeks that no one seems to want. And it's on "make offer."

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  15:52:18

But it did attract a buyer! He just turned out to be a scammer.

schlange - Posted - 06/01/2023:  17:41:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilovebluegrass

I would like a refund of my $5.50 selling fee and $5.00 and $8.00 fees to extend the ad. Eric's email doesn't work, and neither does the link to report a problem. Worst case I will dispute this with my credit card company



In a nutshell



I sold a banjo on banjo hangout.org. for $275. Luckily I did not ship it, or a refund.



Purchased by David Ander (andervidander@gmail.com)

...-

---

I see two emails from you in my inbox... both from today. The first was literally sent 45 minutes before you posted this. 

Not sure what sort of response time you were expecting?

Anyway, yes, I'll get the applicable stuff refunded. It may not happen for a few days though, as I'm traveling due to an important family matter. 

schlange - Posted - 06/01/2023:  17:52:39

quote:

---

Originally posted by banjoy

I am sorry you experienced this but excellent of you to do your due diligence and end it where it did and report that here. This is a very common scam but people do fall for it. Often those checks are "real" in that they reference real accounts but are printed by a scammer. Those will clear and can take months to come back on you, but the will and you'd be on the hook for it all.

I worked for USPS and those fake labels are problematic, because once it's in the mailstream it's like trying to pull a minnow from the ocean. It's delivered before USPS can do anything about it.



Good luck getting any help from Eric though. He's AWOL. I recently had a potential buyer here, who is real and a member here, grossly abuse the feedback system when I refused to sell an item to him so he went and found an item I listed here 13 years ago, which for some reason was still floating out there waiting for feedback (I sold it on eBay and marked it sold) he picked that item and then trashed me in feedback for a sale that never happened for an item that was not for sale. I reported this to a moderator who told me Eric is the only one who can remove fraudulent feedback like that. Never gonna happen, so I will never list anything on any hangout site ever again and have pulled all my ads, past and present. No protection at all, even when a transaction never happened.



Good luck maybe Eric might find time for his website and help his constituents. Not. You might as well go ahead and do the CC dispute, at least they respond to their customer base.



Sorry to pile on, but I too have been ignored for different reasons. But all related to the classifieds here. Good luck resolving this and thanks for sharing this experience as a possible learning moment for others.

---

Happy to help with your review issue, but this is the first I've heard about it. 

 

You have my email - feel free to reach out. I'm far from AWOL... seems a bit of an unfair characterization. I deal with BHO issues on a daily basis, including interacting with you for years, Frank! 

banjoy - Posted - 06/01/2023:  18:04:11

schlange

Eric, I truly appreciate the reply. I try as much as possible not to be a pain in your side ... because I know how (intense) I can be sometimes and try to reign that in.

I went through the normal "Report this to Moderator" link for that nutty review, and received a reply a day later from a moderator that you were the only person who could take care of that. I just made the assumption that it would be passed by the moderator to you and put on your plate. Apparently, an assumption I made in error. I guess the moderator must have closed the case instead of passing it to you for review. It would not make any sense to me that I would have to report it twice to have it acted on once. I do not know how you guys pass open cases back and forth, or not. So thank you.

In fairness, because I had no recourse after a few days I also left a negative review for that person to protect and explain myself. It is only fair that my review of that person (for a transaction that never happened for a product that was not for sale) ... also be deleted. I believe you have all the info you need for who that member is and you will see my negative review. Fair is fair and that should be removed too.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/01/2023:  18:31:08

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilovebluegrass

But it did attract a buyer! He just turned out to be a scammer.

---

He wasn't a buyer. He was only a scammer, trying to get $1,375 out of you.

Old Hickory - Posted - 06/01/2023:  18:33:12

My flange ad has also attracted only a scammer. I reported him based on the first contact. The moderators had already booted him from earlier responses to other ads.

Banjopilot - Posted - 06/01/2023:  18:38:30

I wanted to thank Sherry " Texasbanjo " lady for posting known and repeat offenders' names and " internet names ". My Deering John Hartford sold in just a couple of days. I have an Ome Juniper with an Archtop ring still in the HangOut marketplace. One of the scammers wanted me to accept his "cashier's check ". In my ads, I will take one case by case. He had no questions about the banjo; he wanted to " surprise " his brother-in-law on his birthday; or whatever day! A non-mastertone banjo with a custom ring could easily surprise somebody! He didn't ask for a sound file, which I am still gonna git around to! The Ome is a fantastic banjo in pristine shape but it is not a Gibson; if you call Ome, they will tell you that a few times over! Without a moderator keeping up on " current events", I may have accepted the check. Thanks Sherry ...

coonbone1 - Posted - 06/01/2023:  18:49:36

I think I may have been phished by the same guy today. Kept insisting I take a bank cashier's check after I told him I would accept a USPS Money Order or cash only. He repeated his message again but I smelled a rat. I still have his BHO name and I suppose his "real name" with email address and can forward to Eric if needed. Craig Morris, coonbone1

KCJones - Posted - 06/01/2023:  19:06:33

It's surprising to me that anyone would even entertain the notion of accepting a paper check sent through the mail for payment in this day and age. It's one step away from Western Union. Almost guaranteed to be a scam. 



Using PayPal, or another service of that type. If you use the service properly it's very difficult to get scammed, and if you do get scammed the service offers protection that you don't get with a check. Sure, there's a fee. But it's worth it. And you don't have to wait months to find out that the payment wasn't real. 

Edited by - KCJones on 06/01/2023 19:17:28

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/01/2023:  20:23:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by schlange

quote:

---

Originally posted by ilovebluegrass

I would like a refund of my $5.50 selling fee and $5.00 and $8.00 fees to extend the ad. Eric's email doesn't work, and neither does the link to report a problem. Worst case I will dispute this with my credit card company



In a nutshell



I sold a banjo on banjo hangout.org. for $275. Luckily I did not ship it, or a refund.



Purchased by David Ander (andervidander@gmail.com)

...-

---

I see two emails from you in my inbox... both from today. The first was literally sent 45 minutes before you posted this. 

Not sure what sort of response time you were expecting?

Anyway, yes, I'll get the applicable stuff refunded. It may not happen for a few days though, as I'm traveling due to an important family matter. 

---

OK thank you. Just trying to make sure I reached you. CC ended in 9025, Mastercard. I would like to relist the banjo.

commodoremac - Posted - 06/02/2023:  11:05:14

I personally think BHO is great. I had the exact same thing happen selling a guitar on Reverb. At least they didn't smash in your front door and steal it!

Badweld Banjo - Posted - 06/03/2023:  06:19:19

Same guy tried to scam me a few month ago. He keeps changing his handle and tries again. Always name of David Ander.

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/10/2023:  09:21:29

Ha ha. Scammers must think banjo sellers are stupid. I listed my banjo on reverb.com, and this morning got this from
ha3dinrqgz6dcmjyheydcnbvpqytqobsgmzdmml4@reply.reverb.com
Those random strings looked ridiculous.

The guy just wrote me this:

Nancy

My daughter told me about it and I would have loved to come to check it out but just had endoscopic spine surgery.

Picture is great, I believe this could be based on trust. We are actually buying it as a divine gift for the church to mark my 70th birthday anniversary.

Will be sending cashiers check for the sales since my son runs a business account, once check clears, I'll arrange pickup.

Please let me know why you are selling and condition .Please provide the above information

(1)Full mailing address
2)Name to be on the check
3)Phone number,
4)Final price

So we can prepare the payment check immediately. Please make sure you delete the ad. I will be waiting to hear from you.

Thank you

KCJones - Posted - 06/10/2023:  19:39:39

People do realize these "scammers" are mostly bots, right? You're not even dealing with an actual human, it's a scripted bot. They deal in volume and send out thousands of these responses a day. Almost every time you list something for sale on Craigslist, Facebook, Reverb, or even BHO, you'll get the same email within 24 hours. It's just a bot that scrapes marketplace websites, checks new the listings, and blasts the same email to every new post.



Scammers don't think their victims are stupid. They don't think about their victims at all, and they don't care about the products they're selling. They just know that if they send millions of emails, a tiny percentage of them will result in profit. A miniscule success rate multiplied by extremely high volume is very profitable. "Scammers", by and large, aren't even an individual person, they're a large scale organization. These aren't random people chasing an individual target, they're large companies with employees. Internet scams are a multi-billion dollar industry. Over $10 Billion per year in the US alone.



That email template above has been going out for at least 20 years. Probably longer.



As a note, the email address is generated by reverb. It's not the actual address of the scammers, it's an auto-generated address to hide the personal email of the people using the site. Notice how the domain is reply.reverb.com. You'd get the same type of email address from a legitimate buyer, so don't let that scare you. It prevents random people from seeing your actual email address. Common security protocol, something that BHO unfortunately lacks.

Edited by - KCJones on 06/10/2023 19:41:26

ilovebluegrass - Posted - 06/12/2023:  08:39:31

Thanks for that info. Who knew.