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BluegrassWarehouse - Posted - 05/17/2023: 14:26:11
I have a friend that wants to know which book he should learn first: Up The Neck or Splitting the Licks, both by Janet Davis? I haven't used either one of them so couldn't give a whole lot of direction. Thanks!
Lance
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/17/2023: 14:48:40
Depends on what he wants to do.
"Up The Neck" is just as its name implies: Lessons on playing up the neck. Above 5th fret, I'd say. I'm sure it goes into common shapes and positions.
"Splitting the Licks" is book about improvising and working up your own versions of songs and tunes. It tries to get you to understand the modular-interchangeable nature of three-finger banjo so you can recognize situations where you can use things you already know (licks, phrases, or anything you play over certain chords) from similar musical situations.
Truthfully, it's not a matter of which one to "learn" first. I'm sure they support each other.
If your friend doesn't yet play very much up the neck, then I suppose he should start with "Up the Neck." That will increase his banjo vocabulary, giving him more stuff to improvise with. But tablatures that include up-the-neck verses might do just as good a job.
Edited by - Old Hickory on 05/17/2023 14:48:59
BluegrassWarehouse - Posted - 05/17/2023: 15:17:36
He's wanting to learn to improvise, but he doesn't know how to play up the neck. So if Splitting the Licks also showed how to improvise up the neck, he doesn't know how to play up the neck and wondered if he should learn the Up the Neck book first. Likewise, if the Up the Neck book was showing a little on how to improvise up the neck he doesn't know how to improvise anywhere, up or down the neck. That's why he doesn't know which one to start with.
Lance
Texasbanjo - Posted - 05/17/2023: 15:27:48
I'd start with Splittin' the Licks. That gives him a starting foundation on improvising and, if I remember correctly, does a little bit up the neck to get one started.
I bought both books many years ago and started through them both. However, I was at least beginning to understand how to make my own breaks, so I worked out of the Splittin' the Licks the most then moved over to the Up the Neck.
There's a wealth of information in both books, so if he can afford to buy both..... get them!
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/17/2023: 16:12:29
More examples of books full of tablature that don't explain the functions of the notes so you COULD improvise. If you don't know why your doing things in one part of the neck you''ll never figure out the other.
KCJones - Posted - 05/17/2023: 17:24:28
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
More examples of books full of tablature that don't explain the functions of the notes so you COULD improvise. If you don't know why your doing things in one part of the neck you''ll never figure out the other.
I agree with this sentiment for the vast majority of books but Splitting the Licks is the opposite of this. It starts with the notes and melody, explains how they fit within rhythm, and builds from there. It uses tab notation to display notes but it's not just another tab book.
I would agree though, that the first thing someone should learn after a few basic chords to get them playing songs, is what a chord actually is, how it's constructed, and how scales can be derived from the three basic chord shapes. Keith Billik just posted a primer on this, check it out.
Edited by - KCJones on 05/17/2023 17:25:52
Fallingwater - Posted - 05/17/2023: 17:25:50
Re more books that don't explain....so what, if any, books/methods would you recommend that explain things better. Your input appreciated; thanks.
thisoldman - Posted - 05/17/2023: 17:32:45
Not sure where your friend is where in his/her banjo journey, but I would recommend the Splitting the Licks book. You get different arrangements, ranging from the bare melody to an arrangement with rolls, licks and embellishments for each tune. Like Ken said, it provides the building blocks that you can eventually use to make your own arrangements or improvise.
I personally found that the Up the Neck book got challenging pretty fast. I got more out of Geoff Hohwald's Up The Neck Improvisation book/video/jam tracks...but that is probably because it seemed easier to me. I bought both of them when I realized that I was spending most of my time playing on the first 5 frets and needed expand my playing.
Texasbanjo - Posted - 05/18/2023: 04:46:32
While I agree it's a good idea to learn chords and how they are made and how they go together, it's not mandatory. Some of the best pickers I've ever seen/heard didn't have any idea what chord they were playing, just listened and played and it came out fantastic.
Now, not everyone has that kind of talent, so if you have a tin ear and can't hear a chord change or find a melody, then you probably would benefit by learning some theory.
Over the years, I found the best way to learn to improvise was to join a jam session, sit in the back (at first), listen, watch, learn. Watch the rhythm guitar picker and when he/she changes chords, you do, too. Eventually, you'll begin to "feel" a change coming up and later on you'll know one is and what it is. It won't happen overnight or over weeks, but it will happen if you work at it.
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/18/2023: 06:15:16
quote:
Originally posted by Fallingwater
Re more books that don't explain....so what, if any, books/methods would you recommend that explain things better. Your input appreciated; thanks.
It's overwhelming without explanation, but here's my single sheet I use with my students that has all the answers for why you do what you do on the banjo in open G tuning. BTW as Sherry stated, the bottom left is how a person can play wonderfully without any knowledge of all this theory.
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/18/2023: 08:12:57
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
More examples of books full of tablature that don't explain the functions of the notes so you COULD improvise.
Table of contents for Up the Neck.
Mel Bay description of Splitting the Licks:
Leads the banjo player step-by-step through working out songs for the five-string banjo from basic melodies in both Scruggs/bluegrass style and melodic/chromatic style. Each section contains exercises and examples for improvising. Furthermore, this book teaches how to arrange music based on concepts of combining rolls and licks.
Edited by - Old Hickory on 05/18/2023 08:20:35
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/18/2023: 08:45:32
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
It's overwhelming without explanation, but here's my single sheet I use with my students that has all the answers for why you do what you do on the banjo in open G tuning.
That it is.
What definitely needs explaining to me is why G-flat is one fret higher than G, F is two frets higher, and so on, with notes getting lower as frets get higher. I'm sure there's a good explanation for why the next fret up from G isn't A-flat, two frets isn't A, and so up the notes as you go up the neck. I'm sure the diagram is showing something I'm not seeing.
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/18/2023: 12:12:46
Ken my chart is a virtual fingerboard that shows all 12 keys in one. I would suggest you take a white piece of paper and start covering up frets from the top down and looking for chord shapes in whichever keys you stop at. Hopefully you will get your bearings as to where you are. I used to make a poster board with all 12 fingerboards but I whittled it down to one this way.
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/18/2023: 18:45:25
Rick, I've been playing for 51 years. I can make my two-, three-, and four-finger chord shapes all up and down the neck. I can play diatonic harmonized scales, so I understand which degrees of the scale are in each chord. I've probably used most or all 20 of your licks, though I don't think about them in the way you describe them. I know, understand and to some extent use just about everything in your handout.
Except for why the notes are progressing downward as they appear alongside the fretboard upwards.
If I cover frets with a piece of paper and start moving my chord shapes up to use only uncovered frets, my note names continue upward as do the frets. If I cover the first fret, the resulting open chord is G#/A-flat. The paper doesn't help me see why you've put G-flat next to the 1st fret instead of A-flat, or why F is next to the 2nd fret instead of A.
With all due respect, I still find this part of your handout inscrutable. You have no obligation to explain it, of course.
mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/18/2023: 21:04:23
Ken maybe this might help.
phb - Posted - 05/19/2023: 03:49:34
If your friend wants to learn to improvise, I think he should work on backup first. Backup is very basic improvisation and requires being able to "navigate" around a song which again is a prerequisite for improvisation of melody-based breaks. That being said, I think up-the-neck playing is an indispensable skill for a Scruggs-style player, hence, if he can't do that, perhaps that should be the first step.
Banjfoot - Posted - 05/19/2023: 23:34:00
All the above is useful advice for being a better banjo player, seems to me. But if the goal is to really learn to IMPROVISE, there is no workaround for this. A person has to actually try to improvise (a whole, whole lot I'd say). For some, trying to improvise is pretty natural, but for others it can seem totally out of reach. One piece of advice would be to find someone who is a good improviser and get their help about their approach. I don't mean someone who knows a lot of licks; I mean someone who listens and plays in the moment. You have to be willing to go out on a limb and try unexpected things, to really be a great improviser. But you also have to be able to hear if what you are doing is working. Starting with simple things is very useful to developing the ear, I think, if one needs to do that. This is the kind of thing someone could help your friend to understand the process of, in person, once your friend is able to play a number of different things on the banjo (whether up or down the neck or both). Disregard any part of this advice that is useless hah
Edited by - Banjfoot on 05/19/2023 23:38:55
Old Hickory - Posted - 05/20/2023: 11:29:27
quote:
Originally posted by mmuussiiccaall
Ken maybe this might help.
Not really.
I see you're indicating the locations of the scale degrees for C in G tuning. But why you have "1" at the second fret (as if there's a capo at 1) I don't understand. If you're trying to illustrate how the relationships stay the same no matter what key you're playing in out of your virtual "C" formation, I get that. I think I've understood this concept since I was 14. I think all these decades later, while I understand the concept, I have trouble seeing the locations of notes on the fly as I play. And in different keys -- capo or not -- the fret markers become more of a hindrance than help.
And I see that rather than answer why the notes printed to the left of the fretboard descended rather than ascended as the fret number got higher, you've simply removed them, as if they never existed and I never asked.
So I'm done.
