wannabe picker - Posted - 05/15/2023:  01:40:13

It's Bill Benton here. I'm in a bit of a quandary with an S.S. Stewart Special Thoroughbred that I'm repairing. It has good bones but had not been taken care of very well. I received it with all frets removed .and none of the original frets included. It had a pretty butchered perch pole from various kinds of mutes installed over the years and a fairly mangled turnbuckle. All have been repaired with no issues. Now time to re-fret the very thin (around 1/8"thick) ebony fingerboard. The original bar fret slots on this particular banjo are around .026 thick and nearly the depth of the fret board thickness... There are no sources for such thin bar frets that I can find. I have read some very good pages covering how it's done along with the pitfalls. I am not a machinist but I am aware of some of the capabilities of CNC and laser cutting so I was thinking that might be the way to go. Being such a small order, I have no idea where to begin finding a source machinist. In addition getting the proper nickel silver material to work with. I would appreciate any help and advice you could offer. The material requirements are as follows: I need to equal 50 inches of material. It can be in various lengths as long as there are 50 inches of it. Thickness .027. Height 0.177.
Thanks for your time

Bill H - Posted - 05/15/2023:  02:21:24

Stewart McDonald offers a low, narrow fret wire with a .053 (1.37mm) high tang. I have an 1898 Fairbanks Electric with a fretboard that is no more than 1/8" thick, and this fret wire would fit the dimensions of my fretboard. There are many members here with experience with vintage banjos. Some pictures of your banjo might help you get some informed advice.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/15/2023:  03:18:49

Stewart did not use bar frets.

You can use “vintage mandolin frets” of the smallest size. If you can wait until this evening I’ll put calipers on my Stewart’s and get the size.

But they all were tanged frets.

Bufo Bill - Posted - 05/15/2023:  04:33:07

Hi Bill, from memory tonetechluthiersupplies.co.uk have something near the size you are after. I'm not sure if they're bar frets, I'm not familiar with that term.

Cheers from Bill.

Ken LeVan - Posted - 05/15/2023:  05:24:20

If I understand correctly, you don't want the "T" shaped fretwire, but the bar kind,  027" thick.

If that's the case, I would suggest contacting a jewelry maker with a roller mill. They would be able to cut readily available nickel silver sheet into strips and roll it to the '027" thickness, maybe even roll rod or wire flat, which would have a rounded edge

Rives McDow of this forum would know a lot about this— if he reads this thread he may be able to direct you.

Edited by - Ken LeVan on 05/15/2023 05:27:21

csacwp - Posted - 05/15/2023:  07:10:32

Like Joel wrote, Stewart did not use bar frets. You'll want the smallest tanged mandolin frets that you can find.

Edited by - csacwp on 05/15/2023 07:11:08

Joel Hooks - Posted - 05/15/2023:  07:22:52

I've read this bar fret thing before, and every time it came from a "guitar Luthier".

All of the classic era banjos that I have seen used tanged or "T" frets (with the exception of a very few specially banjos like the Fred Van Eps "flush fret" banjos).

I put calipers on a SSS Champion from the best guess year of 1897 and I am getting .040 to .041 on the width of the fret (the frets are installed so I could not get the tang size or a good height).

Bufo Bill - Posted - 05/15/2023:  11:48:48

Apologies, my earlier recommended website doesn't have anything similar to your requirement, I must have got it wrong.

Cheers from Bill.

rcc56 - Posted - 05/15/2023:  15:35:05

The Stewart banjos that I have encountered all had T frets.

It is my understanding that some Stewart banjos exist that were originally fretless, and had frets added later. If such an instrument had frets installed after-market by someone other than Stewart, it is conceivable that bar frets could have been used by an installer. .027" wide would be an unusual size, though-- most of the old bar fret mandolins I have worked on used wire with widths in the mid .030"s.

It is also conceivable that a worker could have used bar frets in an after-market fingerboard replacement.
But I just re-read your post, and it seems that what you have is most likely the result of a poor previous attempt at a repair. The cause of the problem doesn't really matter, though. All that is important is finding a sound way to fix it.

If your slots are indeed .027", you have a couple of choices:

1. One is to purchase Stew-mac's #4900 fret crimper. If you do much fret work on old instruments, it is a handy tool to have in the shop anyway. It's a shame that it now costs $117. It's made to crimp the tang on modern T fret wire so that the wire will grab in a wider than average slot. They work quite well.

2. Another possibility is to use the metal strips that are used in automobile windshield wiper blades. I have measured these strips at ~.028". They were from average grade wiper blades sold in the US under names like ANCO and others.

3. One more possibility is to fill the slots with thin wood purfling material, re-cut, and install modern wire.

Any one of the above techniques should work. The first one I mentioned would probably be the easiest. If you used the second, you would discover how much extra work is involved in crowning and profiling bar frets. I would only use the last technique in a neck that seemed weak and prone to bowing.

Edited by - rcc56 on 05/15/2023 15:47:21

rmcdow - Posted - 05/15/2023:  16:08:51

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken LeVan

If I understand correctly, you don't want the "T" shaped fretwire, but the bar kind,  027" thick.

If that's the case, I would suggest contacting a jewelry maker with a roller mill. They would be able to cut readily available nickel silver sheet into strips and roll it to the '027" thickness, maybe even roll rod or wire flat, which would have a rounded edge

Rives McDow of this forum would know a lot about this— if he reads this thread he may be able to direct you.

---

I have a rolling mill, and if you were here in the states I'd be happy to roll some nickel silver from online metals down to .027.  You would need to flatten the back side, as it would be rounded on both sides.  Since you are in the UK, this may not be practical.  I think some of the other suggestions here may be more practical than trying to install bar frets. The tangs are going to hold the fret wire in better than flat sides.  

wannabe picker - Posted - 05/16/2023:  23:33:22

quote:

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Originally posted by rmcdow

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken LeVan

If I understand correctly, you don't want the "T" shaped fretwire, but the bar kind,  027" thick.

If that's the case, I would suggest contacting a jewelry maker with a roller mill. They would be able to cut readily available nickel silver sheet into strips and roll it to the '027" thickness, maybe even roll rod or wire flat, which would have a rounded edge

Rives McDow of this forum would know a lot about this— if he reads this thread he may be able to direct you.

---

I have a rolling mill, and if you were here in the states I'd be happy to roll some nickel silver from online metals down to .027.  You would need to flatten the back side, as it would be rounded on both sides.  Since you are in the UK, this may not be practical.  I think some of the other suggestions here may be more practical than trying to install bar frets. The tangs are going to hold the fret wire in better than flat sides.  

---

Wow, all these ideas are so helpful I'm astonished at the response. I accept that these banjos never had bar frets originally.  The danger to me is filling the slots and re-fretting with standard fret material may create an unplayable bock bow in the neck so the option would be to have the kerf wide enough for the frets to basically drop in and glue them all. Since anyone buying this banjo is going to notice it's not original , that is steering me toward just replacing the bar frets. I feel that is the way to go. The actual slots are .026 so at .o27 I'll be able to fit each one more easily. You idea, which others mentioned as well, makes the most sense to me. This banjo is what it is. All original hardware with a 30-s or 40's Clifford Essex and Sons skin head. It will always be an oddball regardless of what method I use to repair it. Would you be able to source usable material there where you are Ken.?  Maybe we can discuss this via emails if that's okay with you?  Thanks to all of you for your  great help. I'm always blown away by the people here, THANKS TO ALL. Bill Benton