gcpicken - Posted - 05/10/2023:  15:49:44

With no teachers around, I developed bad habits, that cost me a lost of time undoing, and are still costing me time. Some are maybe obvious, but weren’t to me. Maybe you all have some I haven’t figured out yet.



1. A good strong push-off that you can really hear, as opposed to a blurry sounding nothing. Big difference. Personally, I hate pull-off’s, but that’s what I did for years until focusing on Sean Rays lessons - and it wasn't where he said "Here is how to do a push-off" - it was just the beauty of his deliberate finger movement, which he exaggerated a bit, I think, that got me interested. For me it’s hard to get a good snap with the pull, and it interferes with the second string. I’ve been unlearning the pull for probably a year, and I still fall back to it if I’m not careful.

2. When sliding from 2-3, actually complete the slide to 3. Then hold it until you need the finger or the string again.

3. Same, but maybe more important, for the 2-4 slide.

4. Accents, accents, accents. Don’t just play a bunch of notes. Tab is just a guide. You are not trying to learn the tab, you are trying to learn the music that got you excited enough to go looking for the tab. You are not trying to sound like a Tabledit player piano with mechanical timing and no accents. Memorize the song, not the tab.

5. Play deliberately - every note is important.

6. When practicing rolls, and trying to get your speed up, don’t cheat the last note - it is as important as the first 7.

7. Practice like you play - maintain the same relationship between your body, the banjo head, angle of the banjo, left hand, right hand and wrist position on the armrest. So for me, it’s stand-up, or sit down (with that ridiculous man-spreading position).



This is just advice for myself- I’m not saying what anyone else should do (although it reads a little like that - but that’s just me yelling at myself). That’s all I can think of right now. I’m sure I have many other undiscovered bad habits.



These are just things I figured out on my own, I’m posting this to get the thoughts of others.

Edited by - gcpicken on 05/10/2023 16:11:29

SandChannel - Posted - 05/10/2023:  16:12:31

That is all solid advice. I would also add "play to a metronome". A lot of time, your timing is not the timing you think.

gcpicken - Posted - 05/10/2023:  16:42:16

quote:

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Originally posted by SandChannel

That is all solid advice. I would also add "play to a metronome". A lot of time, your timing is not the timing you think.

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That's a good point. A guitar teacher drilled that in to me, so I didn't have that issue on the banjo. Actually I sit on a tall stool (with just half of a butt cheek on it, so the banjo hangs as it would if I were standing) in with my back to a Bose Lt1 with my iPad playing from a "Drum Beats+" app, using the 'Country Brushes' option, set the bpm, and have at it. IPad is on a stand right next to me, so it's easy to change the bpm. 

What I should have put in my list, was development of a practice routine, with rolls (I have a timer on my Apple Watch to keep track of how long I drill the rolls) and speed work, a tune I'm working on, challenging licks (that I have cut and pasted into a Word document from the pdf tab (Using Adobe). If I didn't do that, I would (and did used to) fall into the bad habit of just working on a tune. Some of its a drag, but when you see improvement, it keeps you at it.

I got started in early 2020 and, although I "played" everyday, I probably wasted a year and half. I do about 2 hours a day now. Some in the morning, and the rest at night. I don't have talent, but I'm stubborn.

Edited by - gcpicken on 05/10/2023 16:46:54

RB3 - Posted - 05/10/2023:  17:37:36

The act of playing can interfere with your brain's ability to recognize what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right; record your playing and listen to the recordings.

bangee87 - Posted - 05/10/2023:  19:48:08

I've been playing for about two years and these are all things im trying to fix and clean up now as well.

gcpicken - Posted - 05/10/2023:  20:37:28

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

The act of playing can interfere with your brain's ability to recognize what you're doing wrong and what you're doing right; record your playing and listen to the recordings.

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Thats a good point. The red light comes on and I get nervous, so I just keep repeating until I know I've played it clean, then I listen. I do that about every two weeks. I'm my worst critic. Painful.

Edited by - gcpicken on 05/10/2023 20:39:01

talljoey - Posted - 05/10/2023:  23:00:10

I started out using the Janet Davis’ book You Can Teach Yourself Banjo. It’s a fantastic book, except I learned how to play a simple D7, rather than the D chord. It’s taken me about a year or so to unlearn that chord. I’ve finally been able to play the full D to the G without my fingers tangling up.

From Greylock to Bean Blossom - Posted - 05/11/2023:  04:29:16

2 things really helped me: 1. Jack Hatfield banjo method books where learned how to incorporate the melody into the roll and started making my own arrangements, 2. On line lessons with John Boulding who is a top level teacher, player, and luthier. John answered with ease all the questions I had.
ken

Texasbanjo - Posted - 05/11/2023:  04:52:48

To add just a little to what's been said already:

1. Learn to count! I know that sounds silly, but if you're going to stay in time and tempo, you need to be able to count and be sure each measure has the correct count. Counting will also help you play smooth and not choppy (unless you WANT it to sound choppy).
2. Don't try for speed. Speed will come when it's ready. Trying to play too fast too soon will make you a sloppy banjo picker.
3. Do noodle around and see if you can pick out melodies to songs you know or are learning. That's the first step to hearing and transferring what you're hearing to your brain and then fingers.

7624Banjosandy - Posted - 05/11/2023:  05:16:51

Don't over play. Ended up with tendonitis had to stop playing for six month's . Although, I did use that time to study music theory.

Cornflake - Posted - 05/11/2023:  09:40:41

More and more I’m recognizing that playing cleanly, emphasizing certain notes and spaces, is more important than speed and fancy licks. Our band doesn’t play above ~ 135 bpm anyway).

gcpicken - Posted - 05/11/2023:  10:07:40

quote:

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Originally posted by 7624Banjosandy

Don't over play. Ended up with tendonitis had to stop playing for six month's . Although, I did use that time to study music theory.

---

That's a good point on overplaying, but for me the 'over-playing' issue is that i) I slack off on the slides, and ii) the form of my right hand falls apart, as the pinky/ring tend to collapse/fold under - but my picking fingers seem to love the long sessions. 4 hours on a weekend day (or both days) is not unusual because I love to have the banjo in my hands. It's comforting. I should probably use the end of those sessions for starting to go through tab on new tunes (which is more of a slow memorization process and what the pinky/ring are doing is not an issue). I'll add this to my list. Thank you!

Edited by - gcpicken on 05/11/2023 10:09:39

gcpicken - Posted - 05/11/2023:  10:15:40

quote:

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Originally posted by Cornflake

More and more I’m recognizing that playing cleanly, emphasizing certain notes and spaces, is more important than speed and fancy licks. Our band doesn’t play above ~ 135 bpm anyway).

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If I could do 135bpm, I would die happy. That would be pretty close to Take It Easy. Best I can do now clean is 125 forward-reverse roll, and everything else falls off from there (so I couldn't do a 125bpm tune). 

monstertone - Posted - 05/12/2023:  09:59:36

Some people only do pull offs, some only do push offs. Earl did both, depending on where he was going & where he was coming from. There are no hard, fast rules. IMHO, you're overthinking this stuff. Wean yourself off the gadgets, & find someone to pick with. Preferably, a good Bluegrass rhythm guitar player! A dreadnought guitar has a soul unequaled by software.

Edited by - monstertone on 05/12/2023 10:04:48

gcpicken - Posted - 05/12/2023:  16:49:19

quote:

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Originally posted by monstertone

Some people only do pull offs, some only do push offs. Earl did both, depending on where he was going & where he was coming from. There are no hard, fast rules. IMHO, you're overthinking this stuff. Wean yourself off the gadgets, & find someone to pick with. Preferably, a good Bluegrass rhythm guitar player! A dreadnought guitar has a soul unequaled by software.

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You are probably right about over-thinking - that kinda describes me. I would love to meet somebody who had the patience to work with me. I went to open mics for a couple of years, and there was one guy, but it didn't work out for long - he got Covid and kinda disappeared, but we did play out twice, and recorded some things. At 73, I don't want to be an 'old guy who can "almost' play the banjo', so before I go "public", I've got to be able to really stand and deliver, and I'll know when that is because my face will look relaxed instead of intense like I'm about to cut the Hope  Diamond. That will come, or not, and either way is fine, because I get great enjoyment out of just practicing and seeing improvement.

monstertone - Posted - 05/13/2023:  09:04:10

quote:

---

Originally posted by gcpicken

quote:

---

Originally posted by monstertone

Some people only do pull offs, some only do push offs. Earl did both, depending on where he was going & where he was coming from. There are no hard, fast rules. IMHO, you're overthinking this stuff. Wean yourself off the gadgets, & find someone to pick with. Preferably, a good Bluegrass rhythm guitar player! A dreadnought guitar has a soul unequaled by software.

---

You are probably right about over-thinking - that kinda describes me. I would love to meet somebody who had the patience to work with me. I went to open mics for a couple of years, and there was one guy, but it didn't work out for long - he got Covid and kinda disappeared, but we did play out twice, and recorded some things. At 73, I don't want to be an 'old guy who can "almost' play the banjo', so before I go "public", I've got to be able to really stand and deliver, and I'll know when that is because my face will look relaxed instead of intense like I'm about to cut the Hope  Diamond. That will come, or not, and either way is fine, because I get great enjoyment out of just practicing and seeing improvement.

---

Open mics are one thing, jam sessions are another, more relaxed, less pressure. The way I look at open mics is, more or less like, "hey look at me, I have arrived" They may get your foot in the door, however, what you need at this stage of the game, is more like what you had before covid. Someone you can work with, one on one, perfect your technique & build confidence, while having fun in a relaxed atmosphere.

What happened to the guy you were picking with? He may still be around, just afraid to be out in public. Keep looking. Ask questions, music stores, bulletin boards, Bluegrass Banjo Player looking for,,,, (networking pre internet) is there a local Bluegrass organization? Do they have regular jam sessions? Bluegrass festivals attract, concentrate, more pickers like yourself, than anywhere else.

Edited by - monstertone on 05/13/2023 09:07:36

gcpicken - Posted - 05/13/2023:  15:39:16

I thought of another one, I’ll call it 8.

8. I played without finger picks for a while, thinking it would get my fingers, particularly my index, stronger. It threw things off. Then I got one of those finger strengtheners, where you could set the pressure differently for each finger. I use it in such a way that I am just working the the main knuckles where the finger leaves the hand, and I do not work the middle too hard, or they will continue to be disproportionately strong. It made a big difference for me in bringing out the notes I hit with the index, and I got faster (I know this by using before-and-after ‘measurables’). I work it while driving back and forth to work.

Grunlee - Posted - 05/14/2023:  14:40:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by gcpicken

With no teachers around, I developed bad habits, that cost me a lost of time undoing, and are still costing me time. Some are maybe obvious, but weren’t to me. Maybe you all have some I haven’t figured out yet.



1. A good strong push-off that you can really hear, as opposed to a blurry sounding nothing. Big difference. Personally, I hate pull-off’s, but that’s what I did for years until focusing on Sean Rays lessons - and it wasn't where he said "Here is how to do a push-off" - it was just the beauty of his deliberate finger movement, which he exaggerated a bit, I think, that got me interested. For me it’s hard to get a good snap with the pull, and it interferes with the second string. I’ve been unlearning the pull for probably a year, and I still fall back to it if I’m not careful.

2. When sliding from 2-3, actually complete the slide to 3. Then hold it until you need the finger or the string again.

3. Same, but maybe more important, for the 2-4 slide.

4. Accents, accents, accents. Don’t just play a bunch of notes. Tab is just a guide. You are not trying to learn the tab, you are trying to learn the music that got you excited enough to go looking for the tab. You are not trying to sound like a Tabledit player piano with mechanical timing and no accents. Memorize the song, not the tab.

5. Play deliberately - every note is important.

6. When practicing rolls, and trying to get your speed up, don’t cheat the last note - it is as important as the first 7.

7. Practice like you play - maintain the same relationship between your body, the banjo head, angle of the banjo, left hand, right hand and wrist position on the armrest. So for me, it’s stand-up, or sit down (with that ridiculous man-spreading position).



This is just advice for myself- I’m not saying what anyone else should do (although it reads a little like that - but that’s just me yelling at myself). That’s all I can think of right now. I’m sure I have many other undiscovered bad habits.



These are just things I figured out on my own, I’m posting this to get the thoughts of others.

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never hold the 2 to 3 slide.Its a Bb and will sound out of tune with your 2nd string.

gcpicken - Posted - 05/14/2023:  14:51:50

quote:

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Originally posted by Grunlee

 

never hold the 2 to 3 slide.Its a Bb and will sound out of tune with your 2nd string.

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Thank you - It happens so fast, I never noticed!

monstertone - Posted - 05/14/2023:  18:17:42

Earl chocked that 2-3 slide, & then let off of it. This was his more efficient way of doing the 2-4 slide. And, like said, it happened so fast, few picked up on it.

Edited by - monstertone on 05/14/2023 18:19:18

gcpicken - Posted - 05/15/2023:  17:21:59

Here’s my #9 and 10



9. Work the backward roll a LOT. Early on and often. If you want to use it in famliar tune, use Ballad of Jed Clampett

10. Yeah work on hard stuff that you may never be able to play. It keeps you interested. You may get a few licks out of it, but don't get obsessed with it to the extent that you neglect rudiments and learning simpler songs. You might not even like the simple songs, but there are licks in there that will become part of your vocabulary, that one day, you will start putting together into sentences, first tentatively, and then with the flow of a fine orator.



These are just notes to me, from me, of things that I wish I had done differently. I’m not a teacher, and can’t give advice to others.

Edited by - gcpicken on 05/15/2023 17:33:33

monstertone - Posted - 05/16/2023:  07:59:41

Many banjo pickers develop hangups, self made rules. Excuses really. "Earl never did....." Earl never did a lot of things today's players do. Earl was being Earl, & he did very well just being himself. Techniques once considered unorthodox are now accepted common place. Number one rule: there are no rules! Keep workin' at it.

Edited by - monstertone on 05/16/2023 08:10:48

banjoak - Posted - 05/16/2023:  14:37:27

With no teachers around, I developed bad habits, that cost me a lost of time undoing, and are still costing me time. Some are maybe obvious, but weren’t to me. Maybe you all have some I haven’t figured out yet.

That's one way of looking at it. I tend to favor model based learning; "goal directed" rather than "habitual". The habitual method is one way to approach, but seems has to rely on blind faith, worry about bad habits, mistakes... time, undoing, relearning; shoulda, coulda, woulda... imaginary time machine. No guarantee that would've overall taken less time.

At beginning, don't really know what you need to know later...Even if someone gives instructions to follow... they might not quite really sink in, or be interpreted right; nor work for you; or will find what works for you in better way; eventually more suited to your specific needs/goals. It's a lot to put on plate for a beginner to do everything perfect from day one.  It's a journey of discovery, doing some things wrong, is unavoidable, (one step back, two forward)... and perhaps part of the process toward better understanding.

FWIW, having teacher doesn't necessarily avoid any of this.

Edited by - banjoak on 05/16/2023 14:44:00

banjoak - Posted - 05/16/2023:  14:52:19

quote:

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Originally posted by monstertone

Many banjo pickers develop hangups, self made rules. Excuses really. "Earl never did....." Earl never did a lot of things today's players do. Earl was being Earl, & he did very well just being himself. Techniques once considered unorthodox are now accepted common place. Number one rule: there are no rules! Keep workin' at it.

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Some of this reminds me of Bob Seger lyric -

"wish I didn't know now, what I didn't know then" -

For some, a passion when starting; not having fixed rules and instructions, written in book that others tell you; hung up on perfectly following those; worry about what might be doing wrong (possibly getting discouraged) but simply having fun with what works for now, enjoying the experimenting and discovering process; then continuing always learning new or better. YMMV

Edited by - banjoak on 05/16/2023 14:58:48

writerrad - Posted - 05/24/2023:  14:33:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by monstertone

Many banjo pickers develop hangups, self made rules. Excuses really. "Earl never did....." Earl never did a lot of things today's players do. Earl was being Earl, & he did very well just being himself. Techniques once considered unorthodox are now accepted common place. Number one rule: there are no rules! Keep workin' at it.

My own view of Earl is that he engaged in intensive musical study from early childhood on as the family practice other than chores as part of the lasting impact his father who passed away when Earl was young and had played the banjo.  The stories about Earl, his brother and sister practicing their instruments intensively doing things like starting back to bck and walking opposite directions around their house while playing the banjo or guitar in the same tune and trying to have their time right so when the met on the other side of the house when they were 10-13 years old, indicate that if Earl did not do it, it might have been because he had not heard of it.

Whatever personal ego, need for financial success, and hard work,  from childhood he had a feeling of seriousness and will to do whatever was required to reach a level of musical excellence that had no limitations.

TheBrazos - Posted - 05/24/2023:  19:28:36

quote:

---

Originally posted by gcpicken

quote:

---

Originally posted by monstertone

Some people only do pull offs, some only do push offs. Earl did both, depending on where he was going & where he was coming from. There are no hard, fast rules. IMHO, you're overthinking this stuff. Wean yourself off the gadgets, & find someone to pick with. Preferably, a good Bluegrass rhythm guitar player! A dreadnought guitar has a soul unequaled by software.

---

You are probably right about over-thinking - that kinda describes me. I would love to meet somebody who had the patience to work with me. I went to open mics for a couple of years, and there was one guy, but it didn't work out for long - he got Covid and kinda disappeared, but we did play out twice, and recorded some things. At 73, I don't want to be an 'old guy who can "almost' play the banjo', so before I go "public", I've got to be able to really stand and deliver, and I'll know when that is because my face will look relaxed instead of intense like I'm about to cut the Hope  Diamond. That will come, or not, and either way is fine, because I get great enjoyment out of just practicing and seeing improvement.

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Newbie here. Right there with ya. Videoed myself for the first time the other day and I looked like I need to put a leather wallet in my mouth so I dont shatter my teeth. ??

whistlinghen - Posted - 05/25/2023:  04:02:33

quote:

---

Originally posted by talljoey

I started out using the Janet Davis’ book You Can Teach Yourself Banjo. It’s a fantastic book, except I learned how to play a simple D7, rather than the D chord. It’s taken me about a year or so to unlearn that chord. I’ve finally been able to play the full D to the G without my fingers tangling up.

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The great thing about music is that you can make use of EVERYTHING you learn at one point or another, and that D7 will come in handy more than a lot of other things you might learn. For instance, there are times when Earl doesn't make a chord at all-he just mutes all the strings and hits them for rhythm. 



I've played a LOT of tunes on the banjo and fiddle, but the best-paying gig I ever did was a studio session for a commercial for a big logging company, and they wanted to show how they turned some industrial wasteland into a thriving wetland, and my job was to make the sound of whooping crane on the fiddle. All those years of NOT trying to sound like a whooping crane really paid off.