somebanjoguy - Posted - 05/07/2023:  09:39:20

I've noticed there's a couple of common suffixes that appear in the titles of bluegrass songs:
breakdown (ex. foggy mountain breakdown, earl's breakdown, pike county breakdown)
special (foggy mountain special, flint hill special, orange blossom special)
rag (randy lynn rag, bugle call rag, sugarfoot rag)
blues (lonesome road blues, farewell blues, mead mountain blues)
hornpipe (monroe's hornpipe, rickett's hornpipe)
waltz (kentucky waltz, brand new tennessee waltz, lonesome moonlight waltz)
train (reuben's train, train 45)

now, obviously a waltz is in 3/4 time, trains seem to imitate the sound of a running locomotive, and blues have something to do with feeling down (though, the songs themselves don't much reflect that,) a rag is a sort of march, a hornpipe is a type of british/irish dance and traditional song, and all of the breakdowns have that foggy mountain roll. there's certain songs that are called something else that would still fall into different categories in my opinion, like "orange blossom special" is more of a "train" type of tune.

has there been any sort of discussion regarding this sort of naming and categorization of bluegrass standards? maybe I'm overthinking it, only about a quarter of the tunes have these suffixes.

Will Frady - Posted - 05/07/2023:  09:53:37

Wow ! You have put some thought into this . I can’t read music, tab . I hear I find and put a roll around it. It did however dawn on me just this week , that I don’t know many reels. Interesting post . There should be some really good answers on here .

Culloden - Posted - 05/07/2023:  10:03:50

To my knowledge there hasn't been a discussion about the different ways tuned are named. Your analogy of the different types of songs is pretty well on target.
Some of our tunes come from other sources, some of which were around before Bluegrass and already had the names we still use. Farewell Blues and Limehouse Blues are two examples that immediately come to mind. Lots of reels and hornpipes date back to the British Isles but there are some, like Monroe's Hornpipe, that were written in the style of that kind of music just because someone liked the sound of it.
How do songs get named? Sometimes there is reasoning behind it, sometimes it's just a whim.
That's my 2 cents worth. Don't take it for Gospel.

KCJones - Posted - 05/07/2023:  10:27:03

I've seen some threads about this but can't find any now. There's some really knowledgeable folks on here regarding history and theory that will hopefully chime in. But I think it's both historical, and theory based.

Blues, Rags, Reels, and Hornpipes are all related to a specific type of rhythm, melody, and sometimes chord progression. Breakdowns I believe go back to barn dance days where they would do a fast song lead by a specific instrument solo break, that generally wouldn't be danced to but was more of a show off thing for the band.

Related reading:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragtime

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornpipe

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blues

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reel_(dance)

somebanjoguy - Posted - 05/07/2023:  11:01:24

KCJones yes I looked at the wikipedias for those already. Some of my thought process goes to how classical music is labeled, and how certain spanish dances correlate to certain spanish songs, then applying that to bluegrass.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 05/07/2023:  11:17:35

Seems to me, and I haven't studied/researched this at all, that bluegrass songs are a mishmash of almost any style/genre there is. Perhaps that's because people from all walks of life picked up a stringed instrument and started playing their favorite type/genre and just ended up in a jam somewhere with others who were also looking for people to jam and get to know.

I play breakdowns, hoedowns, melodic, single-string, traditional type bluegrass and new type bluegrass, waltzes, reels, rags, blues jazz, pop, rock-n-roll, old time country, new type country, gospel, and anything else that appeals to me. I figure other people do the same.

RB3 - Posted - 05/07/2023:  12:33:36

I was once at an IBMA fan fest workshop where someone asked Del McCoury to explain the difference between a creek and a breakdown. Del was completely flummoxed by the question. The questioner clarified his question by pointing out that some instrumental song titles end with the word "breakdown" and some ended with the word "creek", such as Salt Creek or Stoney Creek. Del could hardly stop laughing long enough to respond to the questioner.

Edited by - RB3 on 05/07/2023 12:34:31

banjoak - Posted - 05/07/2023:  16:39:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by somebanjoguy

I've noticed there's a couple of common suffixes that appear in the titles of bluegrass songs:

breakdown (ex. foggy mountain breakdown, earl's breakdown, pike county breakdown)

special (foggy mountain special, flint hill special, orange blossom special)

rag (randy lynn rag, bugle call rag, sugarfoot rag)

blues (lonesome road blues, farewell blues, mead mountain blues)

hornpipe (monroe's hornpipe, rickett's hornpipe)

waltz (kentucky waltz, brand new tennessee waltz, lonesome moonlight waltz)

train (reuben's train, train 45)



now, obviously a waltz is in 3/4 time, trains seem to imitate the sound of a running locomotive, and blues have something to do with feeling down (though, the songs themselves don't much reflect that,) a rag is a sort of march, a hornpipe is a type of british/irish dance and traditional song, and all of the breakdowns have that foggy mountain roll. there's certain songs that are called something else that would still fall into different categories in my opinion, like "orange blossom special" is more of a "train" type of tune.



has there been any sort of discussion regarding this sort of naming and categorization of bluegrass standards? maybe I'm overthinking it, only about a quarter of the tunes have these suffixes.

---

As part of tune name, it's simply whatever folks decided to call it; doesn't require authorization. Person naming the tune might not even be that knowledgeable, nor need check with or conform to a academic dictionary checklist definition. Descriptors can change over time/geography; and as Folks playing the tune, are not required to play it as conceived, and can alter the feel. 

That said, as far as being discussion of "music theory" -  names to just describe style of music (regardless of tune title); involves some composition aspects, structure; tempo, meter, harmonic... most esp. rhythmic quality or feel. Reels, Breakdown, Hoedown, Hornpipe, March, Polka, Rag, Blues, Foxchase, Two-Step, Foxtrot, Swing, Clog, Cakewalk, Strut, Jig, Slide, Barndance, Fling, Strathspey, Schottische; Air, Lament, Waltz, Mazurka, Hambo, Tango... and so on. Most originate from or in reference to rhythmic feel and movement; many associated with dancing; some in loose way; others in more specific dance. Tune titles might add those, but don't have to, to be that type of tune. (as above, a person can put it in title, even if it doesn't conform). 

If someone asks to play a "breakdown"... it doesn't matter if in title. But here's one reasonable description, and how can change.

memory.loc.gov/ammem/collectio...bout.html

Breakdown: instrumental tunes in duple meter (2/4 or 4/4) at a quick dance speed. This general term in the American South is roughly equivalent to the term “reel” elsewhere in the English-speaking world. ("hoedown" is also used). But it does not imply a particular type of dance; a “breakdown” tune may be used for square dances, longways dances, or other group dances, as well as for solo fancy dancing.

Reels: a class of dance tunes in duple meter (2/4 or 4/4 time), played at a fast tempo. The reel as a dance was originally a “longways” dance with couples forming facing lines, but the reel as a tune class is used for all sorts of group dances. In the American South the reel class has expanded into the large and generic breakdown class of dance tunes.

Similarly "hornpipe"... it has changed a bit from just it's more specific dance origin... in American South and Midwest (and bluegrass), smoother and less syncopated.

-----------

Just to point out a few comments; relating to music theory and names...

a rag is a sort of march

Rags; referring to "ragtime" are not really sort of marches; much more syncopated, as well there is generally a more complex chordal aspect. Rags, in more trad fiddle tune world, is a bit looser; often applied to just something that kind of, sort of seems similar to what they thought "ragtime", and typically does share some of that, esp chord progression. 

obviously a waltz is in 3/4 time

 tune or song in 3/4 is not necessarily a "waltz". 

all of the breakdowns have that foggy mountain roll

Nope, as described above, that's not what breakdown refers... it comes from fiddle world, predates bluegrass and Scruggs type banjo playing.

trains seem to imitate the sound of a running locomotive,

There is no "Train" style in this regard to describe/differentiate style/sound; train in title, just to refer an literal or figurative/metaphoric object... a song about a train; perhaps most have nothing to do with sound of running locomotive. Similarly "Special" has no specific meaning that would describe/differentiate the style/sound... just added to title.

and blues have something to do with feeling down

This is probably on of the most loose in it's use. While "the blues" referring to moe specific genre, style (Robert Johnson, BB King), as above has some composition structure aspects/rhythmic feel. Bot notably term is also used just refers to general idea of "feeling blue" (or similar, covers wide range of emotion); often reflected in lyrics... applied to all sorts of other genre. Can slap "Blues" in title... for whatever reason want. 

Edited by - banjoak on 05/07/2023 16:41:09

Fathand - Posted - 05/08/2023:  05:17:15

Begin the Beguine?

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beguine_(dance)

TreyDBanjoKS - Posted - 05/08/2023:  16:56:51

My 2 cents:



Rags typically feature a few more chords than the other types of tunes, in particular the II and the VI chords (both major). Also a common occurrence in rags is to have a II-V-I turnaround. For example, a rag in the key of C will often feature an A major (VI), and almost always have a D-G-C (II-V-I) turnaround somewhere in the tune.



Reels are quick dance tunes in 2/4 or 4/4 and tend to have their roots in Irish/Scottish fiddle tunes. (Jigs are also an Irish trad. dance tune but with 6/8 time)



Blues tend to feature a I-IV-V chord progression, many times done in the typical 12 bar blues format but this isn't always the case (Limehouse blues, etc..) 12 bar blues example in key of A: AAAADDAAEDAA



Waltzes are tunes in 3/4 time.



In the OT world we don't play too many "breakdowns" or "specials" but I tend to think of them as showy instrumental tunes that stress instrumental prowess over danceability (is it a word?) I don't think there is singing in breakdowns or specials but I could be wrong.





-TD

banjoak - Posted - 05/08/2023:  21:05:08

Tunes that come to mind  - Chinese Breakdown, Fort Smith Breakdown, North Carolina Breakdown, Tennessee Breakdown, Uncle Charlie's Breakdown, Mississippi Breakdown, Saturday Night Breakdown, Hamilton's Special Breakdown, Acorn Hill Breakdown, Eminence Breakdown, Blue Ridge Breakdown, Pike County Breakdown, Polk County Breakdown, Newport Breakdown. Most don't seem particularly "showy" instrumental prowess; just like other OT dance tunes; some going back to 1920's recordings.

Special is used a lot in Cajun tunes/songs (w/words), also think of Midnight Special. Tune wise West Virginia Special,  Corn Dodger Special. 

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 05/09/2023:  01:19:28

I agree with what others above have said - the name normally refers to the particular family of tunes, including notes per bar (eg 6 for jigs, 8 for reels, 9 for slip jigs, etc), and stresses within the particular timing (eg breakdowns, reels, hornpipes, strathspeys, polkas, slides etc might all be in similar tempo, but are differentiated by where the accents fall within each bar/measure). The name therefore signals to musicians how the tune should feel and sound, before they attempt to play the actual notes, particularly if sight reading from notation, or even tablature.

However, there are sometimes anomalies where composers attach a generic title (eg blues or rag) to a tune or song because it sounds appropriate, or intentionally widens its commercial appeal or topicality for Tin Pan Alley songs. There are some anomalies in the bluegrass repertoire to my mind, with several ‘blues’ titles not technically being in blues format (eg Lonesome Road Blues), and ‘rags’ not actually being in rag format (Bugle Call Rag, Randy Lynn Rag, etc), other than perhaps having ragtime syncopation. Some tunes like Deal Go Down, Salty Dog, Dear Old Dixie, etc use the ragtime circle of fifths chord sequence (mentioned above) but they don’t call themselves rags, whereas Farewell Blues should actually be more accurately titled as Farewell Rag.