John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 04/28/2023:  04:28:30

Playing that modern D position style can be tedious at times, here’s a decent explanation of it!

youtu.be/DECTnxlriMU

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/28/2023:  07:13:43

Hi John,
Love your videos. You gotta try Zoom. It's keeping me busier than I ever thought it would....Jack

Bill H - Posted - 04/28/2023:  12:29:13

I am not that good with terminology. I understand what a D chord is and I understand where the D chords and A and G chords are on the banjo neck, but I didn't get what modern D position is. What did I miss?
Thanks.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/28/2023:  12:48:23

quote:

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Originally posted by Bill H

. . . but I didn't get what modern D position is. What did I miss?

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What most people mean when they say "position" is working out of the home for that chord, and the chords for its major key if that chord is the root.

Frankly, I believe "position" is not the best term for this. It might not even be correct.

I think more a precise and universally understood description for this lesson would be: "playing in the key of D without a capo." Or simply: "D without capo."  I'd want to say playing in the key of D in G tuning without a capo, except he's spiked the 5th string to A, so it's not completely G tuning. But everything he demonstrates would work with the 5th string left at G. It would just sound a little different with that drone.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 04/28/2023 12:53:38

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/28/2023:  13:03:27

Also:

I think what he means by "modern" is the sound he's teaching that's associated with contemporary or progressive artists.

Listen carefully and you'll hear that even though he's playing in the key of D major, the sound is not overtly major. That's because he's almost never playing the major third note in any chord. The third in D is F#. He's not using that note in the rolling part of the D chord. F# on the 1st string would scream "Major!" He's only hitting the low F# as a passing note on his way to the G. When he's on the G major chord, he's leaving out the major third B note. And on the A chord, he's mostly omitting the major third C# note.

What's also modern about this approach is how it uses notes outside the chord to create ambiguous harmony and a sense of movement.

Edited to add: Mid-way in the lesson, John is not entirely correct when he attributes the sad, dark or somber sound of songs such as Man of Constant Sorrow to playing in D position. The distinctive sound of that song and others like it again comes from omitting the major third. With that note left out, the sound not clearly major or minor (because there's no minor third, either).  The sound is not from the position in which you're playing. It's from the notes you're mostly not playing.

Edited by - Old Hickory on 04/28/2023 13:11:05

Bill H - Posted - 04/28/2023:  13:46:04

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bill H

. . . but I didn't get what modern D position is. What did I miss?

---

What most people mean when they say "position" is working out of the home for that chord, and the chords for its major key if that chord is the root.

Frankly, I believe "position" is not the best term for this. It might not even be correct.

I think more a precise and universally understood description for this lesson would be: "playing in the key of D without a capo." Or simply: "D without capo."  I'd want to say playing in the key of D in G tuning without a capo, except he's spiked the 5th string to A, so it's not completely G tuning. But everything he demonstrates would work with the 5th string left at G. It would just sound a little different with that drone.

Thanks for these great explanations. I am a claw hammer player working on learning three finger. Claw hammer in D, I almost always retune to double D tuning or play with a capo, but with three finger, I find playing out of standard tuning to be pretty straight forward, but I play with a contra dance fiddler mostly, so I am not playing Bluegrass much. Mainly New England and Celtic dance tunes in a melodic style. Many of these tunes are in D. I am realizing that I need to get up to speed with back-up techniques and would like to shift my practice to include more bluegrass. Your explanation was very helpful.

John Mark Batchelor - Posted - 04/28/2023:  15:56:11

This video man not be “entirely correct” in every aspect but it is meant to give a basic understanding of playing in the chord position of D from an Open G aspect…

As with any instructional video, you may learn from it or the way it’s presented does not resonate with you. It’s one or the other. That’s why variety is great out there.

5stringrules - Posted - 04/28/2023:  18:23:56

quote:

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Originally posted by Old Hickory

Also:

I think what he means by "modern" is the sound he's teaching that's associated with contemporary or progressive artists.

Listen carefully and you'll hear that even though he's playing in the key of D major, the sound is not overtly major. That's because he's almost never playing the major third note in any chord. The third in D is F#. He's not using that note in the rolling part of the D chord. F# on the 1st string would scream "Major!" He's only hitting the low F# as a passing note on his way to the G. When he's on the G major chord, he's leaving out the major third B note. And on the A chord, he's mostly omitting the major third C# note.

What's also modern about this approach is how it uses notes outside the chord to create ambiguous harmony and a sense of movement.

Edited to add: Mid-way in the lesson, John is not entirely correct when he attributes the sad, dark or somber sound of songs such as Man of Constant Sorrow to playing in D position. The distinctive sound of that song and others like it again comes from omitting the major third. With that note left out, the sound not clearly major or minor (because there's no minor third, either).  The sound is not from the position in which you're playing. It's from the notes you're mostly not playing.

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??

youtu.be/e-NlSTerYRg

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/28/2023:  22:19:22

quote:

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Originally posted by John Mark Batchelor

This video man not be “entirely correct” in every aspect but it is meant to give a basic understanding of playing in the chord position of D from an Open G aspect…



As with any instructional video, you may learn from it or the way it’s presented does not resonate with you. It’s one or the other. That’s why variety is great out there.

---

It's an excellent lesson, John. You teach a valuable technique that demystifies rolling backup and shows that it's as easy to roll and play uncapoed in D as it is in G. And, of course, you're showing how easy it is to get that modern sound so many players are after.

My only two criticisms were that (1) the term "D position" may not be universally understood and so (without explanation) may not clearly convey what you're teaching, and (2) you missed the opportunity to point out the very important aspect that creates the sound of this "modern D position": the absence of the major third.

I'm sure that some players who learn the great stuff in this free lesson will figure out for themselves why these chords sound different than typical D, G and A. Fo the benefit of those who don't have that lightbulb moment, I think it would have been better to state the reason for the modern, somber, sound.

Goldstarman - Posted - 04/29/2023:  07:25:40

My guess is this is not made for beginners.. intermediate advanced players would have enough common sense to know what's going on and in my opinion there would be no better teacher than John.

 That is not a knock on anyone or a response to anyone's post just stating the obvious

Edited by - Goldstarman on 04/29/2023 07:26:26

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/29/2023:  12:01:41

quote:

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Originally posted by 5stringrules

??

youtu.be/e-NlSTerYRg

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What part don't you understand?

I'm happy to clarify.