USAF PJ - Posted - 04/23/2023:  10:55:50

Help me think through this. I am an okay player, I have played on a regular basis with players that play professionally.I can hear the changes, I can play in different keys with and without capo. Even play along in non bluegrass settings. The folks I play with are kind and helpful, however, sometimes I have trouble kicking off a tune. It's my timing, I know this because it seems there is an awkwardness as I am playing for a few measures and bass player has not caught on.

So, I want to be a good player and sometimes I think I am an okay player but maybe I am delusional. Have any of you who have started playing when you were an adult felt the same way??

How do you teach timing? I do play with a metronome and the backing tracks available to me, but one thing in that context, quite another in a jam.
If I were to take lessons, what would I ask a teacher to teach me? How would they teach me?

Please advise

Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/23/2023:  11:47:04

Go to jams, don't hesitate to start a song off if you get the nod. The more you do that, the better you and your timing will get. I don't think there's a magic bullet that will make you a better player, but practice and jammin' will definitely help.

One caveat: if you're in a jam where some people can't play in time and tempo, that will hamper your efforts to play correctly. If that happens, just kick off a tune, keep playing and people will catch up with you. Don't try to wait on or follow the bass player. He or she will get the beat if you just keep picking/singing away.

Can you pay your foot and play? Lots of times that will help keep the beat in your mind and in your fingers. If not, can you mentally count as you play? That's another way to keep your timing going.

There used to be one guy in our jam who had no sense of timing. He'd put 5 beats in one measure, two in the next and it was an exercise in patience to try to keep up with him. That also, believe it or not, helped me not with timing, but with going with the flow of the song. Sometimes that ability is also needed.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 04/23/2023:  12:02:58

As a teacher, I hear you asking some very good questions. Actually, they're all parts of what IMO is the one most essential and fundamental question in all of music: "How do I learn to listen better?" !!

There's nothing more important than steady time. I've been playing the banjo longer than you've been alive, and can tell you from experience that no matter how much practice you put into timing, or how finely you've honed those skills, you will still have loads to learn.

We each have our individual way of learning. It can take a lot of trial-and-error to find the one right teacher for you. Maybe there isn't one right one. You might consider taking one lesson from each of several teachers... ?

Foote - Posted - 04/23/2023:  13:24:12

I joined a band and started doing gigs when I had been playing banjo 2 years. I had been playing other instruments for years, but still I was intermediate at best. Two things helped me. The rest of the band was about at the same place so we grew together. Secondly, we taped every gig and made sure to pass the tapes around. This meant I could judge my playing more objectively than memories of the performance. I was able to spot problems and focus on them. As for timing, I improved by playing along with bands on record. Although I've never found a metronome that doesn't speed up or slow down, bands were easier to play along with. Lastly, do more. My band played the main stage Grass Valley CBA two years after we started. We played every chance we could and got better. Enjoy!

jdeluke137 - Posted - 04/23/2023:  13:33:04

I play in a band that I joined after they had been together for years. We rarely practice together, so kicking off songs, which seems to fall to me regularly, has to be done one way for them to sync up easily. Everything starts with three lead-in notes. If I start it any other way then it’s a mess. They’ll actually stop me and have me start the song over. If we practiced more then we could do more interesting starts, but this works.

At a jam you might say “I’m going to kick it off like this”
and show them, then really kick it off. Then everyone knows what to expect.

USAF PJ - Posted - 04/23/2023:  15:47:39

Reading your responses. Thanks for this, thanks for taking the time.
As you know it can be challenging at times. There can be regret that, though I had a legendary teacher, I was never taught how to improvise. It was only tab. I got the tools, but if only....you know the rest.

sunburst - Posted - 04/23/2023:  15:48:12

I feel the same way.

Kick-offs are hard! I was a drummer for years, so I have pretty good timing when I'm warmed up and in practice, but kick-offs are still hard. Not really sure why.

Anyway, I was a musician before starting banjo so I have a decent understanding of music, I have flashes of inspired playing, but I've never really been a consistent banjo player. It occurred to me some years back that I've already played my best banjo and I didn't know when it was. I have had "delusions of banjar", thinking I'm better than I really am, but I think I keep that under control most of the time nowadays.

Edited by - sunburst on 04/23/2023 15:49:02

Foote - Posted - 04/23/2023:  15:51:42

I once saw Bill Monroe at the Great American Music Hall in San Francisco when Butch Robins took THREE times to start a very common bg tune with a very simple intro. On the other hand, this was the only mistake I heard Butch make in both sets. But it does happen to the best of us.

KCJones - Posted - 04/23/2023:  17:37:56

First of all, understand that for the vast majority of musicians, you are your own worst critic. You notice your mistakes and shortcomings orders of magnitude more strongly than any other person. So don't be too hard on yourself, you most likely are better than what you believe.

Second of all, practice with a metronome and go really slow. Personally I like practicing with accented beat that emphasizes the "1". Find what works for you.

Third, you can just practice kickoffs by themselves, as a technical exercise. This is one thing I think tablature is really good for, you can learn the exact kickoff phrases note-by-note. A dozen or so kickoffs will cover 99% of all jam situations.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/23/2023:  17:54:28

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

. . . though I had a legendary teacher, I was never taught how to improvise. It was only tab. I got the tools, but if only....you know the rest.

---

Oh, man. Like summoning Beetlejuice, you've posted the words that call forth my why learn songs rant (with a hint of my purpose of tab rant)! I'll make it short.

Every song you learn (by tab, rote, or however) is not just one more song you can play. It's the pieces -- measures, phrases, licks -- in that song that you can work into other songs when the same chords or chord changes occur.

It's not tab's job to teach you this or to make you hear and recognize the modular nature of bluegrass banjo. And it's not tab's fault if you didn't.  It was probably your teacher's job to make this totally clear. But many people have this epiphany on their own. It may be what separates people who play the banjo from people who play songs on the banjo. It may be what separates those who can make a little music from those who are musicians.

Here's the shortest short cut to improvising: On music paper or regular paper or in word processing write out the chords for a full verse of a song you don't already play in a way that shows how many measures each chord gets. Got it written out? Great! Now play it. Don't just vamp the chords. Fill the measures or beats indicated for each chord. Roll on the chords. Play licks you know that fit the number of counts. If you can hit melody notes, fine. If you can't, fine. Just fill the required number of measures and beats with non-stop music. Do that for each chord until you get to the end. That's it. Improvising is nothing more than calling on your knowledge, vocabulary, or toolbox to play something musically appropriate for each measure of a song. The longer you play, the more tools you put to work.

There are different levels of improvisational skill, but all improvisers are doing the same thing: filling measures or beats with musically appropriate material.

Now go do it.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/23/2023:  18:30:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by jdeluke137

... kicking off songs, which seems to fall to me regularly, has to be done one way for them to sync up easily. Everything starts with three lead-in notes. If I start it any other way then it’s a mess. 

---

Past time for them to learn the concept of what beat the song starts on, such as "on 1" or "on 2 after 1" so that what you play as a kickoff is immaterial as long as you start with a count, play your kick (as they continue to count in their heads), then when the designated beat number arrives, they start to play.

This is Intro to Ensemble Playing. This is middle school band. This is as basic as I-IV-V. I'm not making this up. 

jdeluke137 - Posted - 04/23/2023:  18:42:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by jdeluke137

... kicking off songs, which seems to fall to me regularly, has to be done one way for them to sync up easily. Everything starts with three lead-in notes. If I start it any other way then it’s a mess. 

---

Past time for them to learn the concept of what beat the song starts on, such as "on 1" or "on 2 after 1" so that what you play as a kickoff is immaterial as long as you start with a count, play your kick (as they continue to count in their heads), then when the designated beat number arrives, they start to play.

This is Intro to Ensemble Playing. This is middle school band. This is as basic as I-IV-V. I'm not making this up. 

---

I agree with you completely.  I was in high school band and understand exactly what you're saying.  When I started playing banjo I learned to start with a verbal count from Geoff Hohwald and Curtis Jones, and tried to start that way when I first joined the band.  They looked at me like I was from outer space.  If we practiced, which we should but don't, I'd show them how to do it.  But it is what it is.  

stanleytone - Posted - 04/23/2023:  18:59:54

Record yourself. If you like what you hear then good!

banjoy - Posted - 04/24/2023:  00:46:12

I was watching Alison Brown play solo on a Deering video the other day, and she blew the ending chord and had to hit it again, but she was professional enough to be graceful about it and if you weren't playing attention -- and if she hadn't given a verbal nod to her mistake -- no one would have known.

youtube.com/watch?v=OXbZq9YuqLc

Bela Fleck used to broadcast his on-stage errors all the time through his facial expressions and body language, especially when he was a lot younger. As he's aged, he doesn't broadcast his mistakes as much, and yes, he makes mistakes, he just turns them into more great music :)

I do understand your concerns and my advice is, don't be so hard on yourself. It's just a phase of the banjo moon, you'll get past it, but see it again in the future...

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/24/2023:  05:17:10

In my experience, the players at jams with suspect timing don't seem to get any better no matter how many years they attend.



My stock answer:

Instead of the 200 year old technology of the metronome I would like to recommend an iPhone app to learn how to have perfect timing. In my years of teaching I've found of course that some people have a good sense of rhythm and some don't. The need to stay in time never goes away once you can actually play your instrument. Now most people with a good sense of timing don't even need to know about eighth notes as opposed to sixteenth notes, triplets, etc. They can just feel it. On the other hand I've had students who could play a whole song note for note but with bad timing and it just makes for a train wreck when others try to play along! Anyway getting back to this app, that by the way is called RHYTHM SIGHT READING $3.99, I've had great success with it fixing students timing problems. And the beauty of it is that at the same time it teaches how to read all different rhythm notation symbols that you could come across in tablature or standard notation. This also helps those that have a great sense of rhythm but can't play off of written music because they can't figure out these timing symbols, this app fixes that. The thing that is amazing is that it tests you on your accuracy with a visual report up to a tenth of a second. You can also learn to play ahead or behind the beat for that drive or laid back feel. Finally another thing, it has is infinite patience which I do not possess!

youtube.com/watch?v=bIgMn09Cxmc

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/24/2023:  05:27:47

I'd like to point out that there are two kinds of bad timing--microscopic and macroscopic. I've seen both in my teaching. Microscopic timing errors consist of unevenness, where the player speeds up or slows down--or both at different times. This is an issue of poor execution, and can be fixed by working with a metronome, playing with musicians who have good timing, etc.



Macroscopic timing errors, on the other hand, are of errors of conception--leaving out notes or beats or fractions of beats. Even if the note-to-note timing is good and even, if the picker plays the wrong number of notes in a measure, or continues a forward roll for too long, or leaves out a whole measure (all things I've actually seen), the result will be disastrous.

KCJones - Posted - 04/24/2023:  05:50:52

In my experience, unless you have a really consistent jam with long-time members, "kicking off" a song isn't done with an initial lead break and then everyone drops in. That's the type of this that generally happens when you have a band, or if the jam is full of high level players that know eachother well.

Most jams are best served by the "Wernick Method". Start with the first chord, and just strum the chord together until everyone is in rhythm with eachother. Then look around, make eye contact, and drop into the song when everyone is ready to go. It's not quite as exciting as a ripping kickoff break, but it works very well.

USAF PJ - Posted - 04/24/2023:  05:55:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Old Hickory

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

. . . though I had a legendary teacher, I was never taught how to improvise. It was only tab. I got the tools, but if only....you know the rest.

---

 But many people have this epiphany on their own. It may be what separates people who play the banjo from people who play songs on the banjo.

 

Thanks Ken and rest of you, Ira can you teach this??

Yes Ken, thankfully I have had that epiphany. I have been able to attend, sit in, and also participate in taking solid leads. It's those mistakes and initial kick offs that I would like to have down.

 

USAF PJ - Posted - 04/24/2023:  05:58:44

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

I'd like to point out that there are two kinds of bad timing--microscopic and macroscopic. I've seen both in my teaching. Microscopic timing errors consist of unevenness, where the player speeds up or slows down--or both at different times. 



Ira, can you fix this in your instruction?

 

---

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/24/2023:  06:06:59

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

I'd like to point out that there are two kinds of bad timing--microscopic and macroscopic. I've seen both in my teaching. Microscopic timing errors consist of unevenness, where the player speeds up or slows down--or both at different times. 



Ira, can you fix this in your instruction?

 

---

 

---

Generally, yes, but it's a gradual process. If your (macroscopic) understanding of the timing is good, It helps to play with someone who can hold you to the beat. This can't be done in an on-line lesson, what with the latency in the signal. Or you might be able to correct it yourself by working with a metronome or recorded backup track like Band in a Box. That takes some getting used to, though.

Nic Pennsylvania - Posted - 04/24/2023:  06:30:24

I always tell people new to banjo that it is an easy to sound good on a banjo, but because of its needlepoints of sound, it is not forgiving with timing.



Metronomes, sure. I've found it helpful to go on YouTube and practice to drum backing tracks. These sound more natural to me and I can lock into them better than a metronome.



I've always been honest about it - I'm not the greatest player, but I'm friendly, punctual, and can play to a click track. That kept me getting hired.

Edited by - Nic Pennsylvania on 04/24/2023 06:30:42

monstertone - Posted - 04/24/2023:  09:24:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

Help me think through this. I am an okay player, I have played on a regular basis with players that play professionally.I can hear the changes, I can play in different keys with and without capo. Even play along in non bluegrass settings. The folks I play with are kind and helpful, however, sometimes I have trouble kicking off a tune. It's my timing, I know this because it seems there is an awkwardness as I am playing for a few measures and bass player has not caught on.



So, I want to be a good player and sometimes I think I am an okay player but maybe I am delusional. Have any of you who have started playing when you were an adult felt the same way??



How do you teach timing? I do play with a metronome and the backing tracks available to me, but one thing in that context, quite another in a jam.

If I were to take lessons, what would I ask a teacher to teach me? How would they teach me?



Please advise

---

Is it always the same bass player? Is there any particular song/tune you have difficulty with the kickoff?  Or a specific kickoff lick?

steve davis - Posted - 04/24/2023:  09:46:20

Regular jamming smooths out the timing.

Listening to lots and lots of playing helps imbed kick-offs.

Edited by - steve davis on 04/24/2023 09:47:37

dfstd - Posted - 04/24/2023:  10:32:45

I'm a comeback banjo player, and I too have noticed that the first measure or two of me playing a tune on banjo can be pretty dicy in terms of tempo. It's weird, because I don't have this trouble with other instruments. I've improved my starts a bit by practicing with a metronome. For example, if I eventually want to play at mm=100, I might begin at 80 and try to play the first two measures cleanly. If I can do that three times in a row, then I bump the metronome to 85 and try for three clean starts in a row. Rinse-then-repeat, until I get to mm=100. This approach puts pressure on the player to avoid messing up on the third attempt because you don't want have to start over to get three good starts in a row. It's the same kind of pressure you might feel when kicking off a tune with others. If I can't get three in a row after three tries, then I move on to something else and try it again tomorrow. And because each run is just two measures, it doesn't take a lot of time to do this drill.

USAF PJ - Posted - 04/24/2023:  10:54:16

quote:

---

Originally posted by monstertone

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

Help me think through this. I am an okay player, I have played on a regular basis with players that play professionally.I can hear the changes, I can play in different keys with and without capo. Even play along in non bluegrass settings. The folks I play with are kind and helpful, however, sometimes I have trouble kicking off a tune. It's my timing, I know this because it seems there is an awkwardness as I am playing for a few measures and bass player has not caught on.



So, I want to be a good player and sometimes I think I am an okay player but maybe I am delusional. Have any of you who have started playing when you were an adult felt the same way??



How do you teach timing? I do play with a metronome and the backing tracks available to me, but one thing in that context, quite another in a jam.

If I were to take lessons, what would I ask a teacher to teach me? How would they teach me?



Please advise

---

Is it always the same bass player? Is there any particular song/tune you have difficulty with the kickoff?  Or a specific kickoff lick?

---

Yes, same bass player and he is a professional. He has been patient and encouraging. I notice a lag on How Mountain Girls can Love. Last week was Sunny Side of the Mountain, after a few goes we got dialed in. I want to hit them first time, I find myself wanting to stop immediately and ask what's up, but not best to do that unless we have a smaller group.

doryman - Posted - 04/24/2023:  11:04:12

Great thread. As many have pointed out already, kicking a song off can be quite challenging, even if you have good timing otherwise. For example, I cannot tell you the number of times I've heard people kick off a song by counting in, and then commence to kick off at a speed that bears zero resemblance to the count in! I'm very bad at leading off myself and I often "solve" the problem by having someone else do it!

phb - Posted - 04/25/2023:  04:06:15

quote:

---

Originally posted by doryman

Great thread. As many have pointed out already, kicking a song off can be quite challenging, even if you have good timing otherwise. For example, I cannot tell you the number of times I've heard people kick off a song by counting in, and then commence to kick off at a speed that bears zero resemblance to the count in! I'm very bad at leading off myself and I often "solve" the problem by having someone else do it!

---

Haha, that's 100% me! I have huge problems with kicking off songs (in general) and cannot do count-ins at all. At our last jam (no bass player) I actually kicked of a couple of songs but for several of those the singer was annoyed that I kicked them off too slowly and tried to speed up the song by obnoxious guitar strumming. It didn't turn out too well...

steve davis - Posted - 04/25/2023:  05:55:54

Play more with others to resolve any timing or kick-off issues.
Some problems can't be solved at home alone.
I believe there are quite a few folks that don't want to play with anyone else until they get everything figured out.
Music is a dish best served together...like in a pot luck supper.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 04/25/2023:  09:18:44

Lots of vague comments so far, here's a way that gets you a tempo "body clock", so to speak. Go to the website below and start picking out songs that you are very familiar with and whose tempos are even numbers, I'll call them example songs. Either write them down are memorize them in numerical order. Once you have this list use it to gain a concrete knowledge of what each tempo sounds like in your mind. Finally use this to your advantage by first, knowing the tempo number of the song you want to kick off and second, hearing the tempo of the example song on the list in your new "body clock" mind.

getsongbpm.com/

USAF PJ - Posted - 04/25/2023:  09:34:47

You all have been helpful thus far in this thread. Thanks again!!

Given the topic, timing, kick offs, etc. How do some of you tackle your practice times when you are alone? You go to jams with a variety of tunes but some you know better than others, do you do specific licks, work by rote, finger exercises, i.e scales. What do you do when you have an hour, routinely, or leading up to a jam??

randybartlett - Posted - 04/25/2023:  09:58:11

In an informal jam, I just do several measures of backup - like a 4th string, pinch 1st and 5th, then 3rd string, then pinch. After 2 - 3 measures, everyone knows and I just start the song.

In a band, use the same consistent kickoff for a given song and people should learn it.

wrench13 - Posted - 04/25/2023:  12:19:38

I am a real stickler for timing - if it starts at certain tempo, it better end with the same. I call out people at jams all the time for not keeping time.



One way you can start to improve the keeping of tempo is to use a metronome or Iphone program, matters not which. Start the thing going at a given tempo and tap your foot to it. Now turn it off or mute it, and keep time for a minute, when you turn it back on, you should have the same time. Like the guy in the film "Whiplash" you see if you're a dragger or a rusher. Correct as needed.



Funny note: At a jam last Sat, a fiddler, who is a very experienced classical player, I mean world turing good, was f-ing rushing the tempo horribly during his breaks on standard fiddle tunes. So this is not just a newbie issue. Maybe this guy needed the conductor?

Edited by - wrench13 on 04/25/2023 12:20:37

doryman - Posted - 04/25/2023:  12:48:19

quote:

---

Originally posted by wrench13

I am a real stickler for timing - if it starts at certain tempo, it better end with the same. I call out people at jams all the time for not keeping time.



 

---

Oh, you are THAT guy!

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/25/2023:  14:21:07

It's also possible that the original poster is not using a standard lead in, leading up to the downbeat--either the wrong length, or with filler notes or other stuff that makes it less obvious. When in doubt, I say, go with "nick-nick-nick-NEW" (as our fiddling colleagues like to put it).

dfstd - Posted - 04/26/2023:  05:39:29

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

...How do some of you tackle your practice times when you are alone? You go to jams with a variety of tunes but some you know better than others, do you do specific licks, work by rote, finger exercises, i.e scales. What do you do when you have an hour, routinely, or leading up to a jam??

---

I split my practice time at home between playing music and doing exercises. For the music, I work on tunes I don't know that might be called at our local jam. For exercises, I work on the different rolls and anything I've noticed that needs work (like starts!). I've recently been working out of Kristin Scott Benson's book, "First 15 Lessons for Banjo," which uses common tunes to teach concepts.

At jams, if I don't know the called tune very well, I play simple rolls that give me a chance to occasionally accent a note from the melody. Sometimes, it almost sounds like I know what I'm doing. I got that tip from a Jack Hatfield book recommended on this forum, "You Can Teach Yourself Banjo by Ear." Kristin Scott Benson's book has great info on vamping and rolling backup, which I'm eager to try at our next jam. Her videos that come with the book also helped me improve my right hand position and technique, which is the main reason I wanted to get her book.

steve davis - Posted - 04/26/2023:  05:59:44

Learning to count time helps a lot.

monstertone - Posted - 04/26/2023:  08:57:30

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

quote:

---

Originally posted by monstertone

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

Help me think through this. I am an okay player, I have played on a regular basis with players that play professionally.I can hear the changes, I can play in different keys with and without capo. Even play along in non bluegrass settings. The folks I play with are kind and helpful, however, sometimes I have trouble kicking off a tune. It's my timing, I know this because it seems there is an awkwardness as I am playing for a few measures and bass player has not caught on.



So, I want to be a good player and sometimes I think I am an okay player but maybe I am delusional. Have any of you who have started playing when you were an adult felt the same way??



How do you teach timing? I do play with a metronome and the backing tracks available to me, but one thing in that context, quite another in a jam.

If I were to take lessons, what would I ask a teacher to teach me? How would they teach me?



Please advise

---

Is it always the same bass player? Is there any particular song/tune you have difficulty with the kickoff?  Or a specific kickoff lick?

---

Yes, same bass player and he is a professional. He has been patient and encouraging. I notice a lag on How Mountain Girls can Love. Last week was Sunny Side of the Mountain, after a few goes we got dialed in. I want to hit them first time, I find myself wanting to stop immediately and ask what's up, but not best to do that unless we have a smaller group.

---

"after a few goes we got dialed in" Practice, practice, practice.

'I find myself wanting to stop immediately and ask what's up, but not best to do that unless we have a smaller group." Oh well, you know better. Again, practice, practice, practice.

On many of those old war horse songs, a lot of people have become so "dialed in" to the exact same lead in as on the original recording, any deviation upsets their apple cart. To make matters worse, many of those old recordings were done live, resulting in minor variations on subsequent performances. That may be what you are up against.

Ever heard the term "potatoes"? It's a common lead in among fiddlers.

steve davis - Posted - 04/26/2023:  21:13:48

Bill Keith spoke of using "Chattanooga" for rhythmic purposes.

Dale Diehl - Posted - 04/27/2023:  06:29:26

I could comment on my own failures in the area of timing. They are many. Some will think, it's not that hard, or how can you be that bad. I feel the same way about people who sing off key, can't hit a pitch with out sliding up to it, or stay on it. Or have absolutely horrible vocal technique in every category, pitch, resonance, support, diction, etc. etc. Good music doesn't happen by accident.
We all have our weaknesses and strengths. It seems our ears are tuned to different things. As some one already said, "Learn to be a good listener.".
" Have a clear idea of what you won't settle for." Pete Wernick

banjoak - Posted - 04/30/2023:  13:53:14

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

Help me think through this. I am an okay player, I have played on a regular basis with players that play professionally.I can hear the changes, I can play in different keys with and without capo. Even play along in non bluegrass settings. The folks I play with are kind and helpful, however, sometimes I have trouble kicking off a tune. It's my timing, I know this because it seems there is an awkwardness as I am playing for a few measures and bass player has not caught on.



So, I want to be a good player and sometimes I think I am an okay player but maybe I am delusional. Have any of you who have started playing when you were an adult felt the same way??



How do you teach timing? I do play with a metronome and the backing tracks available to me, but one thing in that context, quite another in a jam.

If I were to take lessons, what would I ask a teacher to teach me? How would they teach me?



Please advise

---

A few thoughts and suggestions.

Recording. It really can really be illuminating, help to determine if good as believe; point to issues, can help pinpoint what might be. 

Recording doesn't lie. When actually playing, esp if thinking about other technical aspects... you might think you are following in time/rhythmic feel, or have good phrasing... but when you listen back, hear from perspective what others are hearing. For example; is the kickoff clearly communicating beat, meter and rhythm; as well as other aspects like adding/omitting a beat. More refined is listening to what communicating rhythmic accent, phrasing, or rushing/dragging certain phrases. This process can help hone listening skills; as mentioned. "How do I learn to listen better?"  The multi-track recording software (DAW) available (and free) really makes it easy; even using phone apps. Offers a lot of other features that can help practice and evaluation.

-----------

How do you teach timing?

This is probably harder to answer; but has an aspect to question goes to fundamental what folks think of as "timing"... function/purpose and thus how they process. 

The way some describe timing, often it's more bottom up; linear, sequential; focus is more abstract and quantitative; measuring, calculating, math, equal distance/spacing; numeric counting; rote memory, bpm; purpose leans toward synchronization; precision or perfect on a grid (like notational); or synchronized with others playing at the same time. (not sure if much can be taught how to improve that type of timing; other than just target practice, finer sense of precision of quantitative measurement?)

Alternatively... other folks might use term timing; but referring more in context of qualitative feel of rhythmic feel (and perhaps phrasing. It's more top down; hierarchal, holistic/global; primary focus on concrete "feel", experience of entrainment of steady beat, dynamic sense of flow and momentum. The goal in this idea of time, isn't to follow/play on top of a rhythm/backing (or abstract grid); but as a proactive part of the rhythm section, to create one cohesive rhythmic unit. With that, devoting more practice on rhythm, being a rhythm player; like drummer; (banjo esp has a percussive/drum aspect); and learning to entrain to the steady beat. What you play (notes/melody/chord) isn't quite as important as how you play it... being in the pocket with the right feel. There are other exercises that can relates more on how we more naturally experience rhythm; one is sensory physical way, with our body (such as dancing); which can strengthen idea of entraining feel/flow/groove and steady beat. 

----------------

I do play with a metronome and the backing tracks available to me, but one thing in that context, quite another in a jam.

These are useful tools; but it's in how you use those tools; for what purpose; and related to above how think about timing, vs rhythmic feel.

Good to practice with steady tempo and rhythm; with follow thru; and devices can be helpful to that; as well can help evaluate, highlight, identify problem points, added or omitted notes/beats, rushing/dragging, phrasing. (useful with above recording evaluation). 

But to note, it's fairly common for folks to use these simply to follow, keep up with or chase the time, target practice; and might constantly readjust; and can seem like somewhat close; and might seem work okay in idea of following/sync of relying on external solid time keeper (device, conductor; or other musicians, esp drum or bass). As you point out, as is case with live musicians in jam, as these devices are not listening, nor responding to what you play, nor will waver. So this use, doesn't necessarily see a result in improved internal sense of time... ability to independently be the steady time. An exercise/evaluation is to set a metronome to play half time, (every other beat), extend space from once per bar to  once per 2 bars (or more). Variation on that is; is to have metronome/backing play for number of bars, then get quieter, or go silent for a number of bars... and then as come back in on ONE... you should be still on that. (can set up Audacity or DAW to do this).  

Edited by - banjoak on 04/30/2023 13:57:13

Grunlee - Posted - 05/14/2023:  15:25:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by USAF PJ

Help me think through this. I am an okay player, I have played on a regular basis with players that play professionally.I can hear the changes, I can play in different keys with and without capo. Even play along in non bluegrass settings. The folks I play with are kind and helpful, however, sometimes I have trouble kicking off a tune. It's my timing, I know this because it seems there is an awkwardness as I am playing for a few measures and bass player has not caught on.



So, I want to be a good player and sometimes I think I am an okay player but maybe I am delusional. Have any of you who have started playing when you were an adult felt the same way??



How do you teach timing? I do play with a metronome and the backing tracks available to me, but one thing in that context, quite another in a jam.

If I were to take lessons, what would I ask a teacher to teach me? How would they teach me?



Please advise

---

If you were my student I would get my guitar and we would play a song.You would kick it off.I would sing it and you would play backup.You would back up my break.We would then talk about what you did and find the positives and negatives.Then if needed we would do it again and record it.Then go over that. 

Thucydides - Posted - 05/14/2023:  20:18:04

You might be overthinking it. There’s usually a delay in people joining the ensemble at sessions as they’re recalling the tune to working memory.

wrench13 - Posted - 05/15/2023:  04:59:45

Its imperative that there is cohesive collective idea within a group of where the song is going. Otherwise it sounds like 4-5+ people who just happen to be standing around and trying to play a song.

steve davis - Posted - 05/15/2023:  06:10:09

You need to know the tune before you can kick it off.
You need to know what the other players are expecting to hear.

steve davis - Posted - 05/15/2023:  13:47:19

The fiddle player spoke across the room to me last Sunday and said "Let's play Lost Indian,Stevie.
I hadn't played it or even listened to LI in a few years and was glad that he kicked it off.
It all came back to me after a couple of measures in.

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 05/15/2023:  15:11:49

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

Bill Keith spoke of using "Chattanooga" for rhythmic purposes.

---

What's that mean to you Steve?

steve davis - Posted - 05/15/2023:  19:52:01

I'm sure Bill has put a fine explanation,but I see/hear it as adding a more complex rhythm by emphasizing the 2 rather than the 1 beat or the 3rd 1/8 note.

Edited by - steve davis on 05/15/2023 19:55:09

USAF PJ - Posted - 05/16/2023:  04:13:03

Thanks for all the input/advice, it has been helpful.

randybartlett - Posted - 05/16/2023:  08:11:56

Here's a little trick I use.

When I am going to kickoff a song (in a jam, not a studio), I will set the pace using backup style rhythm.

Usually, I just pluck a bass note, then pinch, then a bass note and pinch.

When the group is large, my pinching notifies everyone that we are about to begin. Heck, sometimes I do 8 - 10 measures worth while I look around and see who is paying attention. Once I see the main guitar players and the bass "engaged", I stop pinching, pause just a second or so, then kickoff exactly on my rhythm. The train has left the station!

Occasionally, someone might say "how about faster?" or "how about slower?". So, my ritual offers folks the chance to do that.