jimkorn - Posted - 04/20/2023:  03:46:17

There are several variations of the forward roll. In your opinion, which one is best to accomplish drive?

Texasbanjo - Posted - 04/20/2023:  04:42:51

It's according to the song, the tempo, and the drive you want. For me, if I'm just rolling for drive, I usually use the 3, 2, 1 strings, but if I want a different sound, I might use 4, 3, 2. So, whatever works for you and gets the sound you want.

As an aside: I don't do a whole lot of just forward rolls as that gets rather boring to me. I roll for a couple of bars and then do a vamp or even use a rest instead of continual sound. Again, personal preference.

Pick-A-Lick - Posted - 04/20/2023:  05:27:29

Example: In the key if G I like starting a forward roll with 2-5 or 3-5 slide and then going into the roll. I believe the slide goes a long way toward creating drive. Another important factor is dead on timing. Playing slightly ahead of the beat also creates drive.

Edited by - Pick-A-Lick on 04/20/2023 05:29:18

eagleisland - Posted - 04/20/2023:  05:27:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimkorn

There are several variations of the forward roll. In your opinion, which one is best to accomplish drive?

---

There are three variations of a forward roll: T-I-M; I-M-T, M-T-I. That's it. Any of those, repeated, produces a continuous forward rolling motion.

Are you perhaps confusing the actual roll itself with eight-note roll PATTERNS, which we might see as something like T-I-M-T-I-M-T-I...? That's a common misconception given how many learning methods emphasize patterns early on. But if we assume that it's the patterns that matter, we can miss stuff. For example, Earl's "Fireball Mail" contains several passages in which a continuous forward rolling motion involves several measures, which blows the 8-note roll pattern concept out of the water.

Further, it's not the roll or the roll pattern that creates the drive. It's the way the banjo sits in the pocket with the other instruments, with subtleties of timing and note emphasis. That comes with practice, particularly from practice playing with other skilled players.

Edited by - eagleisland on 04/20/2023 05:41:35

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/20/2023:  06:37:08

What Skip said!

steve davis - Posted - 04/20/2023:  06:44:37

The drive depends on the song.
Some songs don't need "drive".

Blackjaxe47 - Posted - 04/20/2023:  08:58:58

quote:

---

Originally posted by eagleisland

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimkorn

There are several variations of the forward roll. In your opinion, which one is best to accomplish drive?

---

There are three variations of a forward roll: T-I-M; I-M-T, M-T-I. That's it. Any of those, repeated, produces a continuous forward rolling motion.

Are you perhaps confusing the actual roll itself with eight-note roll PATTERNS, which we might see as something like T-I-M-T-I-M-T-I...? That's a common misconception given how many learning methods emphasize patterns early on. But if we assume that it's the patterns that matter, we can miss stuff. For example, Earl's "Fireball Mail" contains several passages in which a continuous forward rolling motion involves several measures, which blows the 8-note roll pattern concept out of the water.

Further, it's not the roll or the roll pattern that creates the drive. It's the way the banjo sits in the pocket with the other instruments, with subtleties of timing and note emphasis. That comes with practice, particularly from practice playing with other skilled players.

---

Someone who knows what he is talking about, well said Skip.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/20/2023:  10:18:43

Drive -- if it really exists-- starts in the ears, moves through the brain, then finally gets to the fingers.

I believe that to the extent drive exists, it's a full band phenomenon. And I also agree that to the extent banjo can deliver or contribute to drive, and to the extent I can do it (if I can do it) some type of forward roll pattern works best for me because I can keep it going without thinking about it and can more easily emphasize certain strings with certain fingers on certain beats and maybe convey a sense of drive. Side note: I do not at all believe in the concept of playing ahead of the beat. At least not intentionally.

I like patterns that slide 3rd or 4th fret on 4th string into 5th fret to double the open 3rd. Or start on open 3rd. 

 

I also like forward roll patterns with flat 7 and flat 3 notes (F and B-flat in key of G). On such pattern starts 5-2-1 with 4 and 1 open and 2nd string fretted at 6. Then it goes 5-1-5-2-1 with 1st at  8 then later open again and 2nd still at 6. You can explore and discover where to go from there and which notes to emphasize to create drive. For inspiration, listen to Ben Eldridge on early Seldom Scene albums through Live at Cellar Door.

Sorry to spell out the fingering, but the Forum's text-tab format hasn't worked for me for years now.

I also like patterns that start with middle finger on 1. When I start with thumb, I shift the 2-note makeup in an 8-note pattern so that the count of 3 (If counted as 4/4 eighth notes) or 2 (if counted as 2/4 sixteenth notes) falls on a middle finger.  When starting on middle finger, the shifted 2-note makeup puts that note on thumb.

"3" in 4/4 or "2" in 2/4 is the secondary or weaker "pulse." I believe thumb and middle are the stronger fingers for playing them and contribute to stronger patterns. I think index is the weakest choice for this beat -- as well as the 1 beat -- so you don't want it there if your goal is drive.

If drive exists.

Rich Weill - Posted - 04/20/2023:  10:30:07

To my ear, what gives banjo music a driving rhythm are strong, recurring, regular downbeats, paired together with quick, close notes preceding each downbeat. These two notes connect each measure with a forward-moving “ba-BUM” sound that drives the music ahead.

Measures do have a purpose. They serve the rhythm. They mark where the rhythmic cycle begins to repeat. Banjo rolls that coincide with measure demarcations facilitate maintaining proper rhythm — as long as each roll connects effectively with its successor. Music doesn’t stop at the measure line and then restart. The measures must be joined together. That’s why it’s not only the downbeat, but also the note preceding the downbeat that are so important to push the music ahead.

jpallen - Posted - 04/20/2023:  15:33:04

I agree with Rich, and to add...



When you're doing the forward roll, with drive, emphasize the downbeats -- takes some practice.



Also, with some context, I usually lay off of the fifth string (when straight rolling) until the final verse or pick it lightly so that it doesn't stand out. Then, in the final verse, I'll roll strings 5-3-1 emphasizing the beat to drive it home -- if/when that's appropriate.

Edited by - jpallen on 04/20/2023 15:33:50

steve davis - Posted - 04/21/2023:  04:35:05

Drive has everything to do with timing.

steve davis - Posted - 04/21/2023:  05:48:28

I don't see "drive" as being like a mathematical problem to solve.
It is felt in the moment and in context with everyone else in the band.

eagleisland - Posted - 04/21/2023:  06:03:20

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve davis

I don't see "drive" as being like a mathematical problem to solve.

It is felt in the moment and in context with everyone else in the band.

---

Yes, this. Drive is all about feel. If there's a way to teach feel, I haven't discovered it yet.

steve davis - Posted - 04/21/2023:  06:19:42

Feel is learned by playing music with those that have it.
IMMERSION
Same with learning to sing tenor.

monstertone - Posted - 04/21/2023:  08:29:33

Drive is playing on top of the beat. Difficult to put into words. It's a developed feel for the music. Some insist it can be accomplished by practicing with recorded music. Although I've done my share of that, being more akin to work, I cannot vouch for its effectiveness. For me, nothing compares to the real thing, real time, up close & personal.

steve davis - Posted - 04/21/2023:  16:29:04

I learned about drive from our dearly missed Brian Mason.
I like to say Brian's guitar playing would shut the front door if it had been left open.

Willin - Posted - 04/23/2023:  14:22:12

I've taken lessons from Geoff Howaldover the years. I remember him telling me if you put 6 accomplished pickers in a room and ask them to explain "drive", chances are good you would get 6 good different answers. He said he couldn't give me an overall definition of great drive, but he knew it when he heard it. I know this, I absolutely love my definition of it when I hear it.

steve davis - Posted - 04/23/2023:  16:05:51

And when you hear a "perfect" tenor and alto the hairs stand up on the back of your neck.
It's like they are their own source of power that overwhelms.

That used to happen in our Advent Christian church,too.30 good voices.

Bart Veerman - Posted - 04/24/2023:  09:52:12

Reno uses this variation a lot:

TxTIMTIM

monstertone - Posted - 04/24/2023:  10:28:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by jimkorn

There are several variations of the forward roll. In your opinion, which one is best to accomplish drive?

---

Drive has nothing to do with any particular picking pattern. It's where the lead picker is playing, in relation to everyone else. Although often referred to as pushing the beat, in reality, it is more like the lead player is pulling. However, lacking a solid rhythm section holding everyone else on the beat, it soon becomes a vicious circle as everyone is chasing the leader, trying to catch up. Bill Monroe understood what Earl was doing, & his mandolin chop became the glue that held the rest of the band together.

IMHO trying to learn this all by your lonesome is a frustrating, waste of time. Pick with good Bluegrass pickers long enough & sooner or later, you'll pick it up.

Edited by - monstertone on 04/24/2023 10:37:25

RB3 - Posted - 04/25/2023:  07:19:09

As others have said, it's an ensemble phenomenon. I think that the term is often used to describe playing that exhibits precise timing, but there's more to it than that. Precise timing is a necessary, but not sufficient condition for the phenomenon to be present. I think that confusion is one of the results of using words that don't have definitions.

Old Hickory - Posted - 04/25/2023:  08:01:01

quote:

---

Originally posted by RB3

As others have said, it's an ensemble phenomenon.  . . . I think that confusion is one of the results of using words that don't have definitions.

---

I agree so much with this.

I don't think it's possible for an instrument in unaccompanied isolation to exhibit drive.

And I also think we get all these wide ranging definitions and explanations because people don't really know what they're hearing. Or they think they're hearing something they're not -- such as all the talk about "ahead of the beat."

I firmly believe no one intentionally plays ahead of the beat. There's the beat and not the beat. Players are either together or they're not. I could be wrong.

I believe bluegrass music with drive is crisp and airy up-tempo ensemble playing that pulses on the beat with a quick and precise attack without pounding on it. It has subtle but intentional emphasis on certain counts. I can't say which ones. Go to the typical jam or live gig of a so-so band and the faster the tempo, the more the players pound. And the more monotonously they play. No emphasis on some beats over others. No dynamics. No subtlety. No nuance. It's as if they think speed requires force. Or that more speed means more volume. 

That's my attempt. Like others, I can't explain it. But I know it when I hear it.

O.D. - Posted - 04/25/2023:  15:07:40

youtu.be/z2nXW7ACn5g

I think there are various views of what drive is.

I believe it is in the right hand attack,rhythmically speaking, expressed by the players interpretation  of the music.

This video is an example  of what I consider drive

Ev

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/25/2023:  15:13:34

Hi  OD,

Want to know the truth? There is no such thing as learning "Drive", there is only how people feel music and play it. I know there will be hundreds of threads but there is no answer really. Play what you feel and time will take care of the rest...Jack

---

Originally posted by O.D.

youtu.be/z2nXW7ACn5g

I think there are various views of what drive is.

I believe it is in the right hand attack,rhythmically speaking, expressed by the players interpretation  of the music.

This video is an example  of what I consider drive

Ev

---

Edited by - Jack Baker on 04/25/2023 15:16:23

KCJones - Posted - 04/25/2023:  20:09:43

FIrst you'd need to define drive, which I don't think anyone has done yet. It's a feeling, which makes it a tough egg to crack.

I would agree that it's a full band phenomenon, not just a solo thing. I'm not sure if I agree that playing out-of-time with your band ("pushing" or "rushing" the beat) is something that gives drive. Maybe, perhaps, but I'd say everyone being perfectly in time with each other gives a more steady rock solid feeling, and I think a steady rock solid feeling is at least part of what defines drive. In a bluegrass situation, I've always thought that drive is more about how steady the bass thump and mandolin chop are, rather than whatever the banjo is doing. Perfect bass-mandolin thump-chop beat, with a perfect "endless" forward roll = drive.

A practical experiment always helps. Consider the various forward rolls in the G chord with a 4th string slide up to the 5th fret. Play them along with a simple 1-2-3-4 boom-chuck backing track or 2-tone metronome beat.

You can start the slide on the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th fret. You can hit the 3rd string with your index, or the 2nd. You can land the slide on the 5th fret right when you hit the next string with your index, or you can land it ever-so-slightly before you hit the next string. You can roll a "repeating forward" (e.g. TrTI-MTIM-TrTI-MTIM-TrTI-MTIM-TrTI-MTIM); or you can roll an "endless forward" (e.g. TIMT-IMTI-MTIM-TIMI) (that last part isn't exactly "forward" but it still counts IMO). You can "rush" and play just ahead of the center of the pocket.

Try each variation on your banjo. Don't just read the forum. Play your banjo and listen. You will hear, almost immediately, that some of these variations seem to have more "drive" than others, even if you play them with the exact same timing and 'pocket location'.

Edited by - KCJones on 04/25/2023 20:15:08

RDP - Posted - 04/26/2023:  17:46:12

Drive is pushing a song. It can be done by vocal or instrument.

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/26/2023:  17:49:08

Ha!

This makes thread 534 on Drive...keep going, we can make it to a thousand easy...Jack

Edited by - Jack Baker on 04/26/2023 17:50:01

whistlinghen - Posted - 04/26/2023:  22:09:37

In the end, you can only get this stuff by listening and playing a lot-but that's not very helpful, so I'll add to what's been said with my take.

Most tablature or tablature with music notation that I've seen is written in 2/4 time (which would equal "boom chuck, boom chuck" would equal one measure). If you're playing what some call a "square roll" that means you would play 8 notes in that time. HOWEVER, most Bluegrass SONGS (not fiddle tunes) are in 4/4 time, which would that one measure equals, "boom chuck, boom chuck, boom chuck, boom chuck), during which time you would (if you were playing "square rolls) play sixteen notes.

You would be right to ask "why" they use different time signatures if they take up the same period of time? The answer is that ONE of the reasons they use time signatures is to get the notes in the melody (as sung) to work out evenly (I spent a while as a drummer in a bagpipe band, and there is even something called a 3/4 march in pipe music).

The bass player is going to be playing 8 notes to your 16 (boom, boom, boom, boom) in a measure of 4/4 time, and if they know what they're doing, they'll put a big emphasis on the first "boom" and a lesser emphasis on the third "boom", and little emphasis on the second and third. There is often a VERY slight hesitation before the first "boom" as well depending on the "feel" of the song. The banjo will often "mirror" this same emphasis ever so slightly-without actually doing the job of the bass player and "shouting" it at the band.

As others have said, when you're doing a forward roll, you're doing an arithmetic problem (if you're counting it in 4/4 time) of distributing sets of three note rolls over the same time period where you'd normally pick 16 notes (if you did 4 "square" rolls). In order to get the emphasis to match up with the beat of the bass, you have to emphasize different notes of your three note rolls, and even if you're just playing the same three notes over and over, their "role" in terms of emphasizing the beat carried by the bass changes. This gives you ONE kind of syncopation.

Another kind (I won't mention the third because it involves too much arithmetic and it doesn't have much to do with "drive") is more subtle, and it has to do with the spacing between the notes-which isn't always as "square" and even as it looks on paper. You'll read people rambling on for pages about this, but it's basically about whether you play "ahead" of the beat, "on" the beat, or "behind" the beat (hopefully not-at least most of the time-there are always exceptions), and that has to do with "attack" (as measured in microseconds) and the relationship in time and volume to the other notes.

I DO take exception to those that say that one banjo can't have drive-there are plenty of older field recordings of solo pickers with loads of it. It's basically about "implying" a structure and working within it to impart a sense of forward momentum-and you don't necessarily need another instrument playing with you to do that.

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/27/2023:  05:29:33

535 and counting....

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/27/2023:  06:33:07

quote:

---

Originally posted by whistlinghen

Most tablature or tablature with music notation that I've seen is written in 2/4 time (which would equal "boom chuck, boom chuck" would equal one measure). If you're playing what some call a "square roll" that means you would play 8 notes in that time. HOWEVER, most Bluegrass SONGS (not fiddle tunes) are in 4/4 time, which would that one measure equals, "boom chuck, boom chuck, boom chuck, boom chuck), during which time you would (if you were playing "square rolls) play sixteen notes.



You would be right to ask "why" they use different time signatures if they take up the same period of time? The answer is that ONE of the reasons they use time signatures is to get the notes in the melody (as sung) to work out evenly (I spent a while as a drummer in a bagpipe band, and there is even something called a 3/4 march in pipe music).



The bass player is going to be playing 8 notes to your 16 (boom, boom, boom, boom) in a measure of 4/4 time



 

---

In most bluegrass songs, the bass plays ONE note for every four rolling banjo notes, NOT two, as you've explained here. (Or have I misunderstood you?) This is the case whether we're talking about fiddle tunes or medium- to up-tempo vocal numbers, and I can supply many, MANY examples. (Here's a very well-known one: youtube.com/watch?v=fJhnPA_dAH...HJpY2U%3D .) The feel that results from this is a repeating rhythmic cycle of two beats, not four. Yes, one can notate it in 4/4, but IMNSHO 2/4 or 2/2 corresponds more accurately to the way listeners actually feel the beat; just watch how people tap their feet. 



I don't want to get into discussing notation here--we've done that in the past, and it usually devolves into unproductive pedantry--so let's just talk about ratios of notes. As I just said, most bluegrass involves a ratio of four rolling banjo notes to one bass note, not 2:1 as your comment seems to be saying. Can you offer some examples of what you're describing here?

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/27/2023:  09:21:51

536 and counting. I am sure 1000 is not far off but it has morphed into "Forward Roll"....HA

Edited by - Jack Baker on 04/27/2023 09:23:20

KCJones - Posted - 04/27/2023:  12:46:46

Jack don't you play guitar nowadays anyway? Got any banjos for sale????? Preferably one with a few extra gears in the "DRIVE"-train!

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/27/2023:  12:55:56

Ha! Hi Steven,

Nope, nothing for sale as I've left NYC and only teach via Zoomat my Home in NJ these days. I do keep up with my guitar playing for sure....It's much harder than Banjo for me as I play fingerstyle and it keeps me plenty busy....Happy Spring....Jack

Edited by - Jack Baker on 04/27/2023 12:57:32

whistlinghen - Posted - 04/27/2023:  14:08:57

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

quote:

---

Originally posted by whistlinghen

Most tablature or tablature with music notation that I've seen is written in 2/4 time (which would equal "boom chuck, boom chuck" would equal one measure). If you're playing what some call a "square roll" that means you would play 8 notes in that time. HOWEVER, most Bluegrass SONGS (not fiddle tunes) are in 4/4 time, which would that one measure equals, "boom chuck, boom chuck, boom chuck, boom chuck), during which time you would (if you were playing "square rolls) play sixteen notes.



You would be right to ask "why" they use different time signatures if they take up the same period of time? The answer is that ONE of the reasons they use time signatures is to get the notes in the melody (as sung) to work out evenly (I spent a while as a drummer in a bagpipe band, and there is even something called a 3/4 march in pipe music).



The bass player is going to be playing 8 notes to your 16 (boom, boom, boom, boom) in a measure of 4/4 time



 

---

In most bluegrass songs, the bass plays ONE note for every four rolling banjo notes, NOT two, as you've explained here. (Or have I misunderstood you?) This is the case whether we're talking about fiddle tunes or medium- to up-tempo vocal numbers, and I can supply many, MANY examples. (Here's a very well-known one: youtube.com/watch?v=fJhnPA_dAH...HJpY2U%3D .) The feel that results from this is a repeating rhythmic cycle of two beats, not four. Yes, one can notate it in 4/4, but IMNSHO 2/4 or 2/2 corresponds more accurately to the way listeners actually feel the beat; just watch how people tap their feet. 



I don't want to get into discussing notation here--we've done that in the past, and it usually devolves into unproductive pedantry--so let's just talk about ratios of notes. As I just said, most bluegrass involves a ratio of four rolling banjo notes to one bass note, not 2:1 as your comment seems to be saying. Can you offer some examples of what you're describing here?

---

Your Love Is Like a Flower - YouTube



Hi Ira, While "unproductive pedantry" isn't my middle name, it IS part of my official title. I think you did misunderstand (or I might have gotten confused when I explained it), and I agree that the (usual) ratio of banjo notes to bass notes is 4:1 ("boom chuck boom chuck" would equal a downbeat and an upbeat in 2/4 time or a "bass note/chop, bass/chop). But what I'm saying as someone who did a lot more performing as a Bluegrass fiddler and singer is that the phrasing of the singer sings (or what the fiddle plays in the older styles) is in 4/4, so there is a "meta" rhythm that comprises  4 bass notes during which a banjo would play 16 notes, and the first of the 4 bass notes is strongly emphasized and the third is also emphasized but less strongly so. I TRIED to find "Katy Clyde" by the Greenbriar boys on YouTube to demonstrate, but The Johnstons do something similar on this tune, albeit without banjo. They'll Never Get Their Man - YouTube . 



If Bluegrass SONGS were  actually in 2/4, they'd all be like Gilbert & Sullivan "patter songs", and if there wasn't that subtle, "1 2 3  4 " bass line woven through Bluegrass songs, they'd all sound like polkas. Though they got it from Monroe of course, the business of overlaying the 4/4 foundation with occasional 2/4 fill-in notes was the "innovation" that made Bluegrass fiddling different from Old-Time fiddling, and I hear that same "feel" in "driving" banjo. Bill Monroe and The Bluegrass Boys - Bluegrass Breakdown (Original) - YouTube  



P.S. Venturing further into unproductive pedantry, here is an example of the most famous "3/4" march, "The Green Hills of Tyrol". The melody line divides well into 3/4, but they are used as a march. However, they're tricky to march to because the down beat shifts from right foot to left foot. "The Green Hills Of Tyrol" by the massed pipe bands during Burns' Celebrations in Perth Jan 2020 - YouTube  When I quite smoking for the second time I started playing snare drum (or "side drum as it's called) in a Scottish pipe band for about three seasons, and it's ALL syncopation. 





 

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/27/2023:  14:17:39

Ah--you're talking about the meter of the melody, NOT of the underlying backup rhythms. You're certainly right that vocal melodies tend to be less dense, with longer breathing spaces, than fiddle-tune melodies. I don't know that I'd say they're in 4/4--as an instrumentalist, though, I go by the feel of the backup rhythm--but chaconne à son goût, as Bach said to folks who didn't like his D-minor partita. (How's THAT for pedantry, eh?)

BTW, what IS your "official title"? Sounds to me like we are fellow members of the Bluegrass Intelligentsia. (Me, I'm a dropout from a Ph.D program in Classical Studies.)

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/27/2023:  15:09:53

Ira,

I think our Scholastic friend Whistling is far beyond what BHO is about. He should be inside University walls. Too much mind bending talk for me. Jack

Edited by - Jack Baker on 04/27/2023 15:10:12

whistlinghen - Posted - 04/27/2023:  16:36:38

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ira Gitlin

BTW, what IS your "official title"? Sounds to me like we are fellow members of the Bluegrass Intelligentsia. (Me, I'm a dropout from a Ph.D program in Classical Studies.)



My title is, "Emily Salisbury Keene, future Queen of the Known Universe (currently in absentia), Defender of the Faithless, and Purveyor of the Truth through Unnecessary Pedantry". 



I'll bore you with my full musical and personal biography another time, but I was "stricken" with focal dystonia in my bowing arm in 1988 and in my picking fingers a decade later, and I've never played either fiddle or banjo as well since (I'm relearning to pick left-handed). I've taken MANY musical detours before and since, but here's a link to some very degraded board tapes from the 1980s. I did eke out a living in the 70s and early 80s playing everything from Bluegrass, to Irish music, to C&W and Country Rock, but I hated traveling and the insecurity-and finally realized I didn't like to perform-so why do it?



Stream Emily Keene music | Listen to songs, albums, playlists for free on SoundCloud



 

P.S. I'm playing fiddle on these cuts with the exception of a VERY short segment near the end of "Cowboy Clyde Demo", which features the only recorded instance of my Scruggs-style playing. We did that take live, and I put down the fiddle and picked up the banjo. I used to play some electric guitar and pedal steel in those days too, but sadly I sold my steel in '83. I wish I had it now!



 

 

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Edited by - whistlinghen on 04/27/2023 16:44:46

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 04/27/2023:  16:50:18

Good Lord, Emily--we're Facebook friends, and I really appreciate your contributions to some of the threads there!

whistlinghen - Posted - 04/27/2023:  18:57:13

Of course it's me Ira-who else would it be? "Whistlinghen" is my identite secrete in the Marvel/DC Universe.

CapoNFret - Posted - 04/28/2023:  08:53:53

IMO, Terry Baucom puts out drive, like on the piece "On The Sea Of Life" with Doyle Lawson and Lou Reid. To me, Terry commands the drive every time he pushes that banjo into the mic. It'd be tough to explain, other than "commands".

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/28/2023:  09:45:40

Ah! More "Drive" number 537....Jack

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/29/2023:  22:17:17

"Drive" is who you are and what your energy level is. No one person has the same level of Drive. We must get over this obsessive need for analyzing "Drive". Ask any professional and they will tell you that they just played lots of banjo and adjusted their amount of "Drive" or "Force" according to the band they were playing with. BHO must get over this. Whatever happened to "Self Confidence" in your playing...

In the past I have talked to Sonny O., Allen Shelton, Ralph Stanley etc. about this and they all said "I haven't a clue" (or something similar), I play what's needed...Beginners!!! just play the dang thing and keep it regular and you will get the sound you're looking for...

---

Originally posted by Jack Baker

Ah! More "Drive" number 537....Jack

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Edited by - Jack Baker on 04/29/2023 22:20:07

steve davis - Posted - 04/30/2023:  06:56:52

To learn drive play with those that have it.

RB3 - Posted - 04/30/2023:  07:59:37

Jack,

Are you saying that we should not discuss the subject because the phenomenon does not exist, or are you acknowledging that the phenomenon does exist, but we should not discuss it because you believe that it cannot be explained?

Jack Baker - Posted - 04/30/2023:  08:15:53

Hi Wayne,

You are an engineer so you would naturally have to have the bottom line in a resolvable outcome but when you're talking about music, it's different because it really sometimes does not have an answer.

As my post suggested, Drive is something innate and pros have it or not. They don't question as an Engineer or mathematical person would. As I said, I have talked with hundreds of pros in my time and Drive has never come up; it wouldn't even make sense to most of them. They simply think of it as the way your Body moves to a beat....



At the University level, Drive, meaning, how hard you play, is never discussed in detail, it is a separate part of technique in Music. I realize that BHO is different but I'm not so sure that in all these dozens and dozens of post anyone has really learned anything but to talk and talk and talk--"Play" what you feel. Now I know what I am saying to you will never satisfy many of the people who are constantly searching as opposed to just playing and let it happen....Jack   p.s. I have taught many Pros who have gone on to be professionals so I must be making  some sense HA   pps. On the other hand, it gives people on BHO a second home which is probably good for many who continue to take each and every topic and question until it is successfully/or not  answered in their minds--so be it, you won't get any objections from Eric. HA again...

Edited by - Jack Baker on 04/30/2023 08:30:52

jimkorn - Posted - 04/30/2023:  12:19:19

My original question was asking if there were any techniques to improve drive. A great example is Hank Smith's discussion regarding drive. He said improving your drive could be accomplished by leaving out the third. Then he demostrates. Listening to this 5 minute lesson would help

steve davis - Posted - 04/30/2023:  16:53:45

quote:

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Originally posted by RB3

Jack,



Are you saying that we should not discuss the subject because the phenomenon does not exist, or are you acknowledging that the phenomenon does exist, but we should not discuss it because you believe that it cannot be explained?

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Since I didn't use any of those words my answer would be in the negative.

I'm cutting to the chase and giving a little advice on how to accomplish having a feeling for drive since I thought that would be germane to the subject at hand.

I have no opinion on what you discuss.

Jack Baker - Posted - 05/01/2023:  04:09:20

To All,

Good luck in your never ending search for "Drive". Get a "Driving Iron" and you'll finally learn the definition of "Drive" and your long long long search will be over. I learned in 5 minutes when my Dad showed me what "Drive" was...Jack

Edited by - Jack Baker on 05/01/2023 04:12:58

RB3 - Posted - 05/01/2023:  07:41:51

Jack,

Below is a link to a video of a Deering, 5 String Banjo Lesson With Hank Smith.  He explains how to play with "drive".  I believe that this video is what Jim Kornmeyer, the original poster is referring to in his most recent post. Maybe Deering with get a patent on "drive".  Enjoy!

5 String Banjo Lesson With Hank Smith - Drive