banjoy - Posted - 03/27/2023:  04:45:38

The current BHO discussion about what tunes, if any, are written in a harmonic minor mode reminded me of discussions outside of banjo world where even the experts sometimes cannot always agree on what Key or Mode a passage of music is in. The fluidity of "modal" opens all sorts of interpretations, as that BHO thread demonstrates, is more proof of how theory is, well, theory.

Theory simply describes what happened, not what should or is about to happen.

Here is an interesting video that describes the conundrum very well, there are other similar videos out there (that I can't put my fingers on at the moment) but which give a great idea of how even expert theorists cannot always agree on something as basic (in theory, anyway!) as what Mode or Key is in effect.

Edited by - banjoy on 03/27/2023 05:35:56

banjoy - Posted - 03/27/2023:  05:09:04

A pertinent quote from the video, worth highlighting, I think--

"With music that's in modes -- with 'modal music' -- there's always an element of fluidity with the root note, but this is part of what gives 'modal music' its sound ...

Unlike what we call 'tonal music' -- where through the use of clear cadences and progressions, the root of the Key is almost 100% clear -- with 'modal music' it can often feel like we're 'hanging' between different Key centers, almost as the music progresses we're swinging like a pendulum between two potential root notes.

The modes aren't as stable as the conventional tonal scales like the major scale or the harmonic minor. Modes leave space for ambiguity and subjectiveness when it comes to their Key center. It's a bit like 'tonal music' is a realist portrait, where the subject of the image really isn't up for debate ... Whereas 'modal music' is an optical illusion, where subtle changes in context can change our perception of the subject."

Edited by - banjoy on 03/27/2023 05:10:30

banjoy - Posted - 03/27/2023:  05:29:31

I've been trying to think of banjo world examples and others reading this thread who have a wider repertoire probably can come up with better examples.



While not a '"modal tune" what comes to mind is Bill Monroe's "Lonesome Moonlight Waltz" that immediately sounds to be in the Key of Dm, but resolves every section to the Key of F. So it's a bit ambiguous ... two modes which share the same scale, it boils down to how you "think" about the tune. For years I approached this tune in the Key of Dm, then changed to thinking about it in F after seeing that in numerous transcriptions, it did change my thinking. It's a subtle difference in approach, mostly for me in how I take off and land through the chord changes (how to get from here to there) all to finally land and rest, and end, on F.



Not the best example, but one that can be approached from either-or and be correct, or not incorrect.

Edited by - banjoy on 03/27/2023 05:32:49

banjoak - Posted - 03/27/2023:  06:44:40

"Lonesome Moonlight Waltz" example, I would think of as just in F. It doesn't modulate, just starts on the vi chord. (for a few other reasons). Similar to many tunes, don't have start with the I chord.

But there are other ways folks think about modulation between keys/modes with chord changes ... is a bit of issue of semantics; similarly when comes to modal music, and perhaps how folks David Bennet talks about it. (I notice he uses term "root" rather than tonic")

Most traditional modal music has a pretty clear tonic. 

As far as the video example, (there are other classic examples, Sweet Home Alabama, Hey Joe)... an interesting video IIRC Adam Neely or Cory, aka 12tone... bring up point that using European Classical Music Theory is valid for analyzing explaining European Classical music, but not necessarily the best lens to view pr understand other music. That is they weren't really designed or based on rules of that European tonality.

Edited by - banjoak on 03/27/2023 06:46:03

Brian Murphy - Posted - 03/27/2023:  07:11:59

I'm trying to read all of this in the voice of Carlton Haney

VIDEO: Carlton Haney, Jimmy Martin, and Bluegrass Pythagoras
(click to view)

 

Barnacle Joe - Posted - 03/27/2023:  07:30:43

Here's the video essay by Adam Neely (Sweet Home Alabama, Hey Jude, etc)

youtube.com/watch?v=DVPq_-oJV5U

Will Frady - Posted - 03/27/2023:  17:20:27

Brian Murphy , you made my side hurt laughing so hard. Lawzy Day ! I’m sitting here can’t read a lick of music trying to edumacate my self now I’m learning a whole lot … just through the voice of Mr Haney whilst the King of Bluegrass is trying to interrupt every other word . He got deep as all get out when he started name dropping Pythagoras .

banjoak - Posted - 03/28/2023:  00:34:52

quote:

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Originally posted by Barnacle Joe

Here's the video essay by Adam Neely (Sweet Home Alabama, Hey Jude, etc)

youtube.com/watch?v=DVPq_-oJV5U

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Thar was one or them. Another video I was thinking from 12tone - youtu.be/RtOICDyoBwE

As well as "Hey Joe" - youtu.be/DVvmALPu5TU

Jerry Hatrick - Posted - 03/28/2023:  01:06:47

I tend to envisage Lonesome Moonlight as in D minor, but resolving to F major Since Dm is the relative minor of F major, using exactly the same notes of the scale, then that doesn't amount to a key change for me. Several Beatles songs come to mind (All My Loving, And I Love Her), though songs like One Horse Town (by Blackberry Smoke) are more ambiguous - starting in D minor, but resolving to C major (via A minor). Sweet Child of Mine starts in D but resolves in E minor, but like Sweet Home Alabama is essentially in D major but in the Mixolydian mode, hence the use of D, C and G chords.

Greg Denton - Posted - 03/28/2023:  03:29:57

quote:

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Originally posted by banjoak

Another video I was thinking from 12tone - youtu.be/RtOICDyoBwE

 

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I love 12tone - this is his video that addresses tonal ambiguity as a topic.

youtube.com/watch?v=CvvNbg4qV0Y&t=316s

jlink - Posted - 03/28/2023:  06:47:03

Maybe ours is the age of quantum tonality?
(I’m pretty sure Carlton Haney would back me up on this!)