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BTaylor - Posted - 03/12/2023: 06:44:58
My first banjo is very nearly finished, and I wonder if anyone can help with the finer points of how to achieve the right result with this job…
I’ve been going back and forth with whether to set the pip so the string height is closer to the other four, or, set it low so the string rests on the fifth fret. I’d like to have the option of fretting the fifth string occasionally, so leaning towards the latter.
Questions for doing this:
- Should the pip be hard up against the fret in this case?
- What’s the best placement, depth etc to achieve the correct break angle across the fret to make sure it’s tight and doesn’t buzz?
- Should I try to set the pip as deep as possible (level with, or even lower than the fret crown) with a shallow slot, or have it higher but cut a deeper slot?
- If I go this route I accept the string will be lower near the tuning peg, but how much higher will it end up by the time it’s around the scoop area? Still much lower than the others, or not so much?
I play clawhammer. I don’t mind a small amount of discrepancy in fifth string height, but wouldn’t want a ton.
(P.s. I had intended to cut the fifth fret short and put the pip directly in line but I forgot and banged in a full fret!)
Whadaya reckon?
Thanks, Ben
Alex Z - Posted - 03/12/2023: 08:12:01
While I can't address the technique of installation, there are some playability points you inquired about.
-- First the height of the open string at the pip should be fret height (or a little higher, if the pip were placed in line with the 5th fret). Don't want it at the height of the other open strings at the 5th fret, especially if you intend to fret the 5th string.
-- Don't want the pip height lower than the fret and the slot even lower. Want the pip height to be above the fret, and then the slot cut so suit the string. Too shallow a slot risks the string popping out when playing.
-- Wouldn't be concerned about break angle between the pip and the tuner -- seems to work out OK.
-- Consider replacing the 5th fret with a shorter fret and putting the pip in line, as you originally intended. Most of your questions go away with this configuration. This is a superior design. Only thing remaining is to cut the slot so that the string height is the same as the nut slot height, or a tiny bit higher.
Hope this helps.
mbanza - Posted - 03/12/2023: 08:16:25
The change in the difference is proportional. Measure the distance from the bridge to scoop, divide by distance from bridge to fifth, then multiply by difference in string height at fifth. If your scale is 26.25, the distance from bridge to fifth will be 26.25x0.75=19.69. If bridge to tension hoop is 7.7 then the difference in string height at tension hoop will be 7.7/19.69=0.39. Multiply 0.39 by difference at fifth to get difference at tension hoop.
BTaylor - Posted - 03/12/2023: 09:14:05
Thanks Verne, math is not my strong suit! But I can totally see how that is sound theory. I don’t have any drawn out plans but this kind of thing would totally come into its own if I did. Perhaps on my next build I will make the effort!
Thanks Alex, I'm kind of afraid to pull the fret and re-do, though the pip in that configuration would be my first choice. I'm concerned about tear out/chipping or a subsequent loose fret slot if I mess with it now. It's my first time at this. Overall everything has gone well. I've overcome any issues I've had and I now have a pretty decent banjo which I'm relunctant to mess with! Not ruling it out entirely, but I'm aware there are many, many banjos that are just fine with pip behind the fret.
Not concerned about the break angle to the tuner, I mean the angle from the fret to the pip. I might be misunderstanding how things need to work here.
Edited by - BTaylor on 03/12/2023 09:23:15
lightgauge - Posted - 03/12/2023: 09:41:41
On mine, I make the pip close to the fret and the slot lower than the fret, so the strings sits firmly on the fret. I experienced buzzing if the slot wasn't lower. I make the pip tall enough to not worry about the string popping off the sides of the slot. Set the pip shallow in a separate piece of wood to polish and slot before installing, as there is no room after installation.
BTaylor - Posted - 03/12/2023: 09:47:57
Thanks Bobby, that’s what my own mind was telling me. Makes sense to eliminate any buzz, but does sound potentially tricky to get right. Good call about slotting and polishing before installing.
lightgauge - Posted - 03/12/2023: 09:50:38
I hope it helps! It was all learned from doing it wrong the first time.
BTaylor - Posted - 03/12/2023: 10:18:31
quote:
Originally posted by lightgauge
I hope it helps! It was all learned from doing it wrong the first time.
Precisely what I'm trying to avoid! Haha
Helix - Posted - 03/18/2023: 04:55:39
1/8" in from the edge of the fingerboard.
1/8" back from the 5th fret.
I have had taller pips break and the 5th string falls away during performance. A shorter pip does the same thing.
The simplicity of just using a spike as a pip offers only the spike as a vibrating tonal contribution. The 5th fret handles all that.
I prefer something else.
I even made my own bovine shin bone by using Arizona sun.
There always seems to be a high "fiddle factor." The shorter fret uses all the pip, it's like a frailing scoop with the shorter frets and requires exact placement
I play clawhammer and 3-finger style in the same song(s). Claw for the singing verses and 3-finger solos and backup while vamping. I play out over the "Z" positon at the 19th fret and I use fingerpicks to do it. It is not the ideal clawhammer voice, but it allows me to synthesize a "voice" of familiarity. The audience perks up. I play without picks in the morning, I play a real banjo to warm up my builders' parts, those ancient bones. Claw = Tap, tap, hit with hammers and pulls? Frailing = all the strings, less melody., or meddling.
So I went to using a steel screw instead of brass. I prefer that sound.
" A good pip is a good thing, but a good screw is hard to find." No one said that, just quotes.
good work Ben, please inform us of your solution. Se why tunneling the 5th is so enticing. Now the tunnel entrance is the pip.
Edited by - Helix on 03/18/2023 05:10:49
banjoez - Posted - 03/18/2023: 10:55:49
To save a lot of worry and work just use a railroad spike about 1/4" or a bit less behind the fifth fret. You can fine tune the location better than a pip because you don't have to allow for the width of the pip in what is usually a tight spot on the neck. This puts the string directly on the fret and reduces intonation/retuning problems as you capo. It also solves a lot of buzzing and other issues from a bad slot cut in the PIP.
banjoez - Posted - 03/18/2023: 11:37:10
quote:
Originally posted by banjoez
To save a lot of worry and work just use a railroad spike about 1/4" or a bit less behind the fifth fret. You can fine tune the location better than a pip because you don't have to allow for the width of the pip in what is usually a tight spot on the neck. This puts the string directly on the fret and reduces intonation/retuning problems as you capo. It also solves a lot of buzzing and other issues from a bad slot cut in the PIP.
Actually it's more like around 1/8" behind the fret. See pics.
This is also a good alternative to fix a wonky pip that breaks off, is placed incorrectly or is glued in and can't be repaired or fixed without a lot of drilling and refitting. Just file the bad pip down and put in a spike. Stelling did this for a while.
Edited by - banjoez on 03/18/2023 11:52:13
