Fretting Fingers - Posted - 03/05/2023:  09:02:32

If this is not the correct place to post this, moderators please put it where it should be posted.

I have been trying to understand music for a lot of years and I can't get it. Not even the basics of music. I would really like to be able to read and understand music in notation format, however what ever it takes to be able to do that, is beyond me. I have read helps/articles to no success. Has anyone else suffered with this lack of ability and overcame it? If so could you give me some direction how you did it?

Brian Murphy - Posted - 03/05/2023:  09:16:08

If you are talking music notation, rather than tab, my suggestion would be to take beginner piano lessons with a teacher. You can explain why you are doing it, but learning the keys to a piano really helps understand the intervals of a fretted instrument. Why are some steps from one fret to the next a sharp note and others are a whole note (e.g. B to C and E to F)? If you understand the piano keyboard you can visualize and understand this. When I was a kid, my Mom had me take organ lessons. Hated it, but I did learn the keyboard.

davidppp - Posted - 03/05/2023:  09:46:23

I second the idea of beginner music lessons.

Even better than piano might be accordion -- the one with a keyboard on one side and buttons on the other. Those buttons introduce you right away to several aspects of music beyond scales, which are evident on the chromatic keyboard. In particular, intervals and chords are the essence of those buttons, and most banjo music is chord based. Certainly, it helps a lot to hear the chords if you are trying to figure out how to play a tune. I'm talking about the accordion with six rows of buttons.

There are a couple of rows of buttons arranged in intervals -- 3rds, 4ths, and 5ths -- depending on which way you go. And there are four rows of chords that start on those notes but are minor, major, seventh, and diminished. The buttons are where the um-pah-pah lives.

Of course, there are people who just pick up the instrument and make music. But tradition instruction books and lessons connect notes on the page and music theory to what you hear and do with your fingers.

Culloden - Posted - 03/05/2023:  10:42:27

David makes a good point but, in today's world, it is probably easier to find a piano teacher than an accordion teacher. Learning a keyboard is a great help to understanding music and theory because it lays everything out in sequence.
Music is music, whether it's played on piano, banjo, or bagpipes. Notes and theory don't change, just the places where you put your fingers.
I hope that made sense.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/05/2023:  12:00:43

If you really want to understand music, go to your local collage and/or university and take a course in music theory. It will be more piano oriented, but music is music, chords are chords, scales are scales regardless of the instrument you're wanting to play.

If there's not a local college/university near and/or you can't afford the class, purchase a music theory book and an inexpensive keyboard and take it slowly from page 1. Don't skip around or you'll get bogged down because you missed part of what you needed to know first.

Learn where middle C is on your keyboard and learn your white keys (C, D, E, F, G, A B) and learn your black keys -- the sharps/flats between the white keys. Once you understand that, then go on to chords, starting with major chords, then triads then... well, you get the idea.

thisoldman - Posted - 03/05/2023:  12:56:35

You've been a member of the HO for 10 years and own at least one really nice banjo, so I assume you have been playing banjo for some time. I will also assume you've learned tunes/songs by ear and/or tab. And the gist of the original post is that you want to learn how to learn tunes by reading standard notation, as well as some basic theory...correct?



When I retired I decided to learn a string instrument, and since there was a guitar in the house, that's where I started. I learned to read enough standard notation to learn some tunes, as well as picking out a few simple tunes by ear. Then I decided to give bass a try, didn't want to learn to do that using reading standard notation (too much for my brain to handle), so I found tab. I am a visual learner and tab seemed so easy and intuitive, I stayed with tab until I (finally) settled on banjo. I've picked up theory as I needed it, a bit at a time.



No key to success, no easy button to push, when learning to read standard notation. Just hard work and repition. At least for me. Probably easier if you work with banjo tunes you already know how to play, as you'll recognize if your notes or timing is wrong. Eli Gilbert has a series of videos on music theory..have not watched them, but if it is as good as his other instruction it should be helpful. Take a look at Rick McKeon 's book on basic music theory for banjo...it seems to get good reviews. Find a book with both standard notation and tab (like the Parking Lot Picker's Songbook).

Edited by - thisoldman on 03/05/2023 12:57:08

trapdoor2 - Posted - 03/05/2023:  14:51:24

The first tab books (1870s) were a recognition of the inability for some people to understand notation, no matter how hard they tried. They weren't trying to understand music...they just wanted to play it.

The piano keyboard is the primary tool used in teaching music. Some colleges offer introductory classes. Some symphony orchestras also offer music appreciation classes as well as introductory theory, etc.

I learned more about music by taking up the Viola than I ever did with piano lessons.

Fretting Fingers - Posted - 03/06/2023:  07:38:01

Thisoldman, you are correct I have been playing banjo for a long while. I play by ear, when I hear a song I like, I can pick it out how I hear it. My question here is about being able to read music and understand it. For whatever reason, I have and inability to be able to do it. I have read music theory but in about 5 minutes I am totally lost.

Thank you all for your answers and guidance. BHO is the best!

banjoy - Posted - 03/06/2023:  07:41:22

I would add to what others have said ... if you can find any materials from Bill Keith, he was a banjo picker who loved to explain theory in terms of the banjo. I believe there are some published materials of his work, try to find it if you can, it may help. I know he helped many banjo pickers to get a basic grasp of theory, and you'd be in good company...

Lew H - Posted - 03/06/2023:  08:03:03

banjoy Although I didn't learn a lot from it, I was in a theory theory class with Bill Keith at Suwannee Banjo Camp--late 1990s or early 2000s. He used the now familiar clock face to explain relative minors, circle of 5ths, etc. He insisted that he was not teaching music theory, but music FACT. Over the years, I have come to better understand what he was explaining.

NotABanjoYoda - Posted - 03/06/2023:  08:08:24

I understand what the op is saying. IMHO, tablature is a legitimate music notation. If you know how to read tablature, then you do indeed read music notation.

Classical music notation has many, many symbols, different clefs etc and depending on what the OP means, could take over a decade to get to a very advanced, symphony conductor level. But it boils down to where those symbols are located translates to a sound on an instrument. In the case of a jo, tells you where to put your fretboard fingers and how to pluck the strings.

As an alternative to learning the piano or taking a class...There is plenty of sheet music on the bho that shows tabs and it equivalent classical notation simultaneously. Download it and then have someone label the classical notation part notes ABCDEFG etc.

Start memorizing, this symbol in this position is a B. B is a note that looks like this in tab form. Tab form shows me where to put my fingers. Therefore this symbol means put my fingers here and pluck.

Gotta start slow and somewhere.

Joel Hooks - Posted - 03/06/2023:  08:13:04

quote:

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

The first tab books (1870s) were a recognition of the inability for some people to understand notation, no matter how hard they tried. They weren't trying to understand music...they just wanted to play it.

The piano keyboard is the primary tool used in teaching music. Some colleges offer introductory classes. Some symphony orchestras also offer music appreciation classes as well as introductory theory, etc.

I learned more about music by taking up the Viola than I ever did with piano lessons.

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That is one way to look at it, but the marketing of such methods tell another story.  They were "learn quick without effort" gimmicks and most warned that if one was serious about the banjo then they should buy one of the notation based books. 

They even claimed to teach you banjo instantly and without a single note!  How does one play banjo without playing a note?

trapdoor2 - Posted - 03/06/2023:  10:07:38

quote:

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Originally posted by Joel Hooks

quote:

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

The first tab books (1870s) were a recognition of the inability for some people to understand notation, no matter how hard they tried. They weren't trying to understand music...they just wanted to play it.

The piano keyboard is the primary tool used in teaching music. Some colleges offer introductory classes. Some symphony orchestras also offer music appreciation classes as well as introductory theory, etc.

I learned more about music by taking up the Viola than I ever did with piano lessons.

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That is one way to look at it, but the marketing of such methods tell another story.  They were "learn quick without effort" gimmicks and most warned that if one was serious about the banjo then they should buy one of the notation based books. 

They even claimed to teach you banjo instantly and without a single note!  How does one play banjo without playing a note?

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Yes, they were primarily scammers. However, the psychology of hiding "the bogeyman" behind an alternate symbology is as old as mankind. An an "open and shut" hole is no longer a "note" but a direction, somewhat like how shape note systems direct solfege. If you bought into it, you could make music. I've tried it, I was able to play the simple tunes...but like many similar systems, it requires you have the tune in your head to begin with...and it falls apart pretty quickly if applied to more complex tunes.

We still see people claiming there are no notes on the banjo. This is a half-joking demonization of academic systems, a symbol of resistance to authority and a symbol of freedom hiding behind the shield of ignorance.

The Dobson's system was a beginning (standard notation had an awkward beginning too) for a relatively new instrument. It was adapted from a pre-existing method (French Lute tablature). It looks silly by today's standard and it really wasn't complete enough to stand on its own. It didn't help that it was pushed as a replacement for an already entrenched academic standard and it was vilified almost instantly...but even Stewart saw it had merits (monetary ones, to be sure) and published his own version. Of course, it eventually evolved into the more complete system we enjoy today.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/06/2023:  11:27:38

I'll play some devil's advocate here about learning theory (and I believe learning it is a good thing).

I've known several musicians that had no "learning" about theory, couldn't tell you what note they were playing, what chord(s) sometimes, and didn't know 4/4 from 2/4 but did understand the difference when it came to waltzes. They could listen to a song, pick it out on whatever instrument they might have in hand, and play it easily and correctly. They learned to play by ear and played a whole lot better than some of the "educated" musicians.

This is not to say one shouldn't learn about and understand theory, just that it isn't a prerequisite to playing beautiful music.

Fathand - Posted - 03/06/2023:  11:55:44

I gained most of my theory understanding from the theory section in the Scruggs book. Enough to understand using a capo, creating chords, building a scale or transposing.



I can read music notation (barely) slowly and it helps if I need to learn a tune but I can't see how it has any connection to understanding theory. I find it very counterintuitive, moreso than apple computer products. The circle of 5ths is of some help.

Edited by - Fathand on 03/06/2023 11:59:04

NotABanjoYoda - Posted - 03/06/2023:  12:11:04

In the end, an accomplished musician just plays based on expertise on the given instrument. Rarely do you think...hey Im playing a D major scale, you just do it because youve done it thousands of times.

Dan Gellert - Posted - 03/06/2023:  14:02:45

I can very easily get on a long rant about how our misuses of the word "music" have handicapped our understanding of music. Notation is NOT music. That's a very important distinction, which is glaringly ignored in the English language (except by a few of us geeks and curmudgeons). Music is a sound. What can be written is a chart, a set of plans that can be used by a musician to assemble a piece of music.

Also, notation is not necessarily linked to understanding music theory. Music theory is just a way of using words to describe patterns in sound which we naturally recognize as having musical meaning. If I play or sing a series of 3 pitched sounds, with the second one two semitones lower than the first, and the third two semitones lower than the second, the first and second being of equal duration and the third of double that duration, you hear "Three Blind Mice"! You also can sense that bit of melody coming to rest or finishing on that third note, without knowing about scales, resolution to the tonic, or any such jargon.

Written notation is a useful tool, but (unless you want to play "classic" fingerstyle), IMO it's entirely optional for most 5-string players.

Half Barbaric Twanger - Posted - 03/08/2023:  17:12:56

For whatever it's worth:

Several years ago I took a music theory course at the Cambridge Center for Adult Education. taught by a high school music teacher who also taught and played banjo  When she explained matters in terms of the piano keyboard. I found myself translating to the banjo fretboard, even after buying the cheapest keyboard available at Walmart (WARNING: The first sample was OUT OF TUNE).  

Full Disclosure: I had learned a little about music notation in grammar school music class and music physics in college Physics (Simple Harmonic Motion: pendulums. vibrating air columns, and VIBRATING STRINGS)  The Physics course helped with tuning strings relative to each other, which helped in understanding everything

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/08/2023:  18:37:48

"I learned more about music by taking up the Viola than I ever did with piano lessons."

I'd say you had a bad piano teacher. As a former piano technician, I'd say of the teachers I dealt with, about half were completely cluelees about theory, and of those that knew much, maybe half presented theory in a form that could be understood.

Piano is a great learning tool, but one must first be a little familiar the layout of a keyboard. Also, a keyboard doesn't work for everybody, just as there are those who can't decode a fingerboard or a music stall without some instruction from a good teacher.

Texasbanjo - Posted - 03/09/2023:  04:44:33

quote:

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Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

"I learned more about music by taking up the Viola than I ever did with piano lessons."



I'd say you had a bad piano teacher. As a former piano technician, I'd say of the teachers I dealt with, about half were completely cluelees about theory, and of those that knew much, maybe half presented theory in a form that could be understood.



Piano is a great learning tool, but one must first be a little familiar the layout of a keyboard. Also, a keyboard doesn't work for everybody, just as there are those who can't decode a fingerboard or a music stall without some instruction from a good teacher.

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I took piano lessons as a child.  I remember my teacher giving me a sheet that had the treble staff and lines on it and giving me simple words and asking me to put those letters on the lines on the staff.  That was her idea of teaching me the notes on the piano.  She did teach key signatures and scales, but I don't remember ever getting any information on chords.  

To t his day, I can go to the piano and play any major scale,  even using the correct fingering as I go up and down the keys.   I really disliked having to do those boring scales (G)

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/09/2023:  05:45:22

quote:

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Originally posted by trapdoor2

 

We still see people claiming there are no notes on the banjo. This is a half-joking demonization of academic systems, a symbol of resistance to authority and a symbol of freedom hiding behind the shield of ignorance.

.

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A great turn of phrase there, trapdoor2! It's just one manifestation of a pervasive trend in American culture. 



Read more here (if you haven't read it already): en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-int...ican_Life .

geoB - Posted - 03/09/2023:  06:02:13

quote:

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Originally posted by Fretting Fingers

I have been trying to understand music for a lot of years and I can't get it. Not even the basics of music. I would really like to be able to read and understand music in notation format, however what ever it takes to be able to do that, is beyond me. I have read helps/articles to no success. Has anyone else suffered with this lack of ability and overcame it? If so could you give me some direction how you did it?

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Can you play it all? Do you have your chords down and your finger picking techniques well on their way? If so you can disregard most of this a find a good method series which could contain four or five books getting you up to a certain level. And start going through those or...

There are approaches to learning "music" or learning to "play an instrument" that you have using beginner music books for that instrument. Sort of like the school band approach.

I refer them to them as  either taking "music lessons" which is the study of music or you're taking "instrument lessons" which is learning how to play the instrument that you have in your hands.

Learning to play the instrument that you have in your hands is probably more satisfying in the short term, and you can delve into the musical theory once you are up and running on the instrument that you have chosen to learn.

Assuming your instrument is banjo, you start out learning the notes per string playing little ditties with the notes that you have learned and they'll throw in a chord occasionally for you to strum.

Finger picking or using a plectrum or using a bow is the second hard part about learning a stringed instrument. And that comes as you progress through the workbooks that you have chosen to learn from. 

The big boys on the music book block are Hal Leonard, or Mel Bay. I've used both and although I started on Mel Bay many years ago I think I prefer Hal Leonard methods.

And that's just to learn the notation. It can be boring, it takes time, it takes a bit of commitment and it takes scheduling practice every day 20 to 30 minutes. 

Or contact teacher through a local music store or a friend who might know a teacher and learn how it's done. But follow their direction. 

Both approaches require putting in the time. The advantage to having an instructor is that they'll give you exercises to improve your dexterity which is of paramount importance in the long run,  although it oftentimes is completely neglected if your are self-taught which adds to the frustration.

Edited by - geoB on 03/09/2023 06:14:14

Tractor1 - Posted - 03/09/2023:  07:24:28

keyboards are cheap --accordions look heavy and Myra Floren is already the king
reading music is very useful to me---I can and have learned many well known songs that way--without having to waste my time searching them out by slowing them down--but hearing them along with it also helps---

the theory part usually does not come into play when gleaning a tune from the written page--theory can be contradicting and useless sometimes but exact correct sometimes but reading music requires no theory--such as reading a ruler requires no math

speaking of the ruler --one part of reading music is identical to reading a ruler--the note lengths are the same fractions as a ruler divides inches --example a dotted quarter note would read 3/8--

you need to learn which banjo notes lay on the 5 line staff lines etc.--a good teacher could use your banjo as a reference--I find G tuning and visualizing the fret board with notes in place much better an explanation tool than my keyboards --but that is me


that and every good boy does fine plus F-A-C-E--visualized on the staff is a good start--if there are sharps or flats you will have to raise or lower a note by one fret--
good luck --if you can read a ruler you probably can do it

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 03/09/2023:  08:50:57

quote:

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Originally posted by NotABanjoYoda

In the end, an accomplished musician just plays based on expertise on the given instrument. Rarely do you think...hey Im playing a D major scale, you just do it because youve done it thousands of times.

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"in the end" are the key words here. It takes a while to get to the point where even a great musician can play without thinking. Before that, he is usually still thinking about chords and sounds, what key might be best., or how he might improvise over a chord progression. 

Even a "by ear" player listens a lot before attempting a new tune. and only begins to play that tune after he has an idea of what to do with it. It may seem automatic, but that's only because he/she has years of experience. He also first had to figure out where a particular melody note or chord lies on his chosen instrument before he can go quickly to that sound.

bart_brush - Posted - 03/09/2023:  23:52:30

quote:

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Originally posted by davidppp

I second the idea of beginner music lessons....Even better than piano might be accordion - intervals and chords are the essence of those buttons, and most banjo music is chord based.

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I agree with the first part, but not that most banjo music is chord based.  A lot of old time music is melody or scale based, with chords only implied.  AND, the chords may be implied to a listener who is aware of music theory, but not implied to a clawhammer player who is thinking of melody and rhythm, and has no need or desire to play chords.  

Roscoe Holcomb played melody on most of his banjo pieces, and usually played guitar same way--picking the melody with thumb lead, and filling in the rhythm and playing drone notes with his index finger.

Dock Boggs played in a similar melody style, but used 3 fingers AND often reverted to simply plucking the chords while he sang--Thumb-fingers, thumb-fingers...  to a beat of  1 + 2 + 1 + 2...

Fred Cockerham and Tommy Jarrell usually played their banjo and fiddle tunes with both playing melody.

When the guitar, bass, and mandolin were added to traditional music ensembles the implied chords became obvious, because those  instruments mostly played just the straight chords--bass chord, bass chord... OR (another way to describe it) boom chuck, boom chuck... ( and for the mandolin: rest chop, rest chop...).

Of course there are variations and exceptions and overlaps to what I've outlined above--that's the creativity of the musicians!  But it helps to think of those individual "Elements of Music" (that's what they're called in music theory) and how they are combined, emphasized, and dropped, depending on the musician, the group, the style, the song, etc.

The 6 Elements of Music are:  melody, rhythm, harmony, tone color, dynamics (loud, soft, accents, smooth), and form.  Regarding the later, the simple verse and refrain is the most common form in our music, but the form of the big "classical ditties" (as Doc Watson called them)--like symphonies--can be extremely complicated. 

 However, neither simplicity nor complexity are synonymous with "better".  These are terms of description.   Consider tone color.  Does the banjo have a "better" tone than the guitar?  Did Roscoe Holcomb's banjo have a "better" tone than Earl Scruggs's, or vice versa?  Why choose when we can listen to both?   

Thinking of how the Elements are used can add to our enjoyment and understanding of music, musicians, and societies.  Lastly, since much of our music is songs with words, I like to add "text" as a seventh element of music.

Ira Gitlin - Posted - 03/10/2023:  06:33:15

quote:

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Originally posted by bart_brush

  A lot of old time music is melody or scale based, with chords only implied.  AND, the chords may be implied to a listener who is aware of music theory, but not implied to a clawhammer player who is thinking of melody and rhythm, and has no need or desire to play chords.  

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Yes! And even when players coming from traditions like that use chordal instruments, they may not understand the function of chords the way chords are understood by people (like all or most of us here) who gre up with chordal harmony. Here's my favorite example:  youtube.com/watch?v=L0y3quSHDoI .