Cricket55 - Posted - 02/15/2023:  18:29:01

Hello All Again - 

Many thanks to those who responded to my first post on my dad's Vega  long neck.  So here's another project and looking for suggestions from the hive mind. This one is a Harmony 4-string I found in my father's garage where it had been languishing for years.  It appears to have a (possibly original) skin head.

I recently attempted to make the poor thing playable.  Adjusted the neck angle but, not wanting to do anything irreversible, changed the angle using a hose clip and shimmed at the neck.  Action is really good now... about 3/32" at the top fret.

This banjo just wanted to be strung "Irish."  I had planned to put lighter strings on for standard tenor tuning but, for some reason, those seemed really tight.  Putting heavier strings on just worked.

So, this one seems to have weird overtones.  I will try to post a vid, but the overtones didn't really get picked up.  Anyway, I thought the banjo wasn't intonated or something but, after awhile playing it, it seemed like it WAS intonated, but there were weird overtones happening that made it sound funny.  If I muted the strings or head, the banjo was in tune.  If I didn't, I heard what almost sounded like reverb, but a little out of tune.

Ideas?  What do I check next?  I know the hose clip is Mickey Mouse, but it's tight.  Not sure that's the issue.  The nut seems poorly cut and made of wood.  Maybe there?  Head tension?   Thoughts?  What say ye, O knowledgeable ones?

Thanks, 

Cricket

Harmony Back

Harmony Skin

Harmony1

 

Cricket55 - Posted - 02/15/2023:  18:39:53

A video of the banjo in question.  For some reason, the overtones didn't come out in the vid.  Again, thoughts from the hive mind welcomed.

youtu.be/E00YyfpiJJE

Edited by - Cricket55 on 02/15/2023 18:42:30

tdennis - Posted - 02/15/2023:  19:03:15

Your playing is so nice, I would say, don't change a thing. (However, I don't quite see how the hose clamp would alter the neck angle).

Edited by - tdennis on 02/15/2023 19:04:55

Cricket55 - Posted - 02/15/2023:  19:09:49

Maybe it doesn't show clearly in the picture. Instead of the dowel screw going straight into the dowel from behind the tailpiece, I clamped the dowel to the top of the screw. This brought the action down from over 1/4" at the top fret to about 3/32". 

Helix - Posted - 02/16/2023:  03:28:23

They had minimal tailpieces. Put some felt in the strings after the bridge, not muting, just clipping those ghosts.


The first banjo I ever played.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/16/2023:  10:34:38

Check the head tension.

Cricket55 - Posted - 02/16/2023:  11:21:17

Thanks for the replies.

If you zoom in on the picture, I have a bit of foam under the strings at the tailpiece already, and the strings behind the bridge are pretty dead, unless I misunderstood your suggestion.

By "check the head tension" are you thinking too loose?  Too tight?  Uneven?  I don't have a drum dial, though considering the purchase.  The brackets *seem* about the same tightness... Bridge seems flat....  what is the custom for Irish tuned tenor.  Head seems to be tuned to Bb or so.

I am wondering about the head being what appears to be natural skin.  Never had that before, so not sure if or how that might be affecting things.  I'd imagine the banjo hasn't been played in over 50 years.  The strings were completely rusted, as is a lot of the hardware... I kind of like the patina though.

Thanks all for the input.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/16/2023:  18:50:35

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cricket55

Thanks for the replies.

If you zoom in on the picture, I have a bit of foam under the strings at the tailpiece already, and the strings behind the bridge are pretty dead, unless I misunderstood your suggestion.

By "check the head tension" are you thinking too loose?  Too tight?  Uneven?  I don't have a drum dial, though considering the purchase.  The brackets *seem* about the same tightness... Bridge seems flat....  what is the custom for Irish tuned tenor.  Head seems to be tuned to Bb or so.

I am wondering about the head being what appears to be natural skin.  Never had that before, so not sure if or how that might be affecting things.  I'd imagine the banjo hasn't been played in over 50 years.  The strings were completely rusted, as is a lot of the hardware... I kind of like the patina though.

Thanks all for the input.

---

Could be eithe, although Bb is likely way too low. Tension can be set pretty accurately with a dime and a 6 inch straightedge (thanks go to member Steve Davis.) A dime should barely slide beneath the straightedge next to the bridge. (better instructions can be had using the BHO search function (Steve Davis coin and straightedge method for head tension.)

Cricket55 - Posted - 02/17/2023:  03:51:25

I have heard of that method but have never tried it.  I'll give that a try  and see what happens.  Thanks.

Cricket55 - Posted - 02/17/2023:  15:10:18

Thank you George.  Cranked up the tension on the head and the overtones I was hearing seem to have mostly cleared up.  Going to buy a drum dial just to see if everything is even around the head but, at least by feel and using the "dime method," things sound much better now.

The video didn't pick up the sound.  I think I may have been hearing the overtones from the back of the banjo, where the vid was picking up the sound mostly from the front.  As I said in the op, it sounded out of tune until I muted things... so the intonation was ok, but if I played a chord, or even certain intervals, live in the room, it sounded out of tune.  But, checking with a tuner, it WAS in tune.  Weird.  And it sounded ok on the video, which wasn't the case in the room.  

Anyway, many thanks for the suggestion, which seems to have put me on the right track.  The head seemed tight but apparently it has much more room to go.  Much appreciated.

Not super familiar with skin heads.  Was also a bit nervous since this banjo has been languishing in a garage for God knows.  So I am trying to fix it up, not break it.  

Thanks again, 

Cricket

Cricket55 - Posted - 02/17/2023:  15:16:20

Another question...

I have had it in my head to paint or draw a Celtic knot on the head.  It would definitely look sharp but would it ruin the head?  Esp since skin heads sound very susceptible to humidity etc.  

Back in the day, I had my boys, now in their 20s, put their handprints on the head of my Deering Boston.  No regrets, and never noticed any tonal changes, but that's a Boston with a plastic head.

Thoughts?

Edited by - Cricket55 on 02/17/2023 15:19:14

DSmoke - Posted - 02/17/2023:  18:54:27

quote:

---

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cricket55

Thanks for the replies.

If you zoom in on the picture, I have a bit of foam under the strings at the tailpiece already, and the strings behind the bridge are pretty dead, unless I misunderstood your suggestion.

By "check the head tension" are you thinking too loose?  Too tight?  Uneven?  I don't have a drum dial, though considering the purchase.  The brackets *seem* about the same tightness... Bridge seems flat....  what is the custom for Irish tuned tenor.  Head seems to be tuned to Bb or so.

I am wondering about the head being what appears to be natural skin.  Never had that before, so not sure if or how that might be affecting things.  I'd imagine the banjo hasn't been played in over 50 years.  The strings were completely rusted, as is a lot of the hardware... I kind of like the patina though.

Thanks all for the input.

---

Could be eithe, although Bb is likely way too low. Tension can be set pretty accurately with a dime and a 6 inch straightedge (thanks go to member Steve Davis.) A dime should barely slide beneath the straightedge next to the bridge. (better instructions can be had using the BHO search function (Steve Davis coin and straightedge method for head tension.)

 

---

This is for 5 string players, not accurate for GDAE tuning for Irish trad setups.

Cricket55 - Posted - 02/18/2023:  04:15:23

quote:

---

Originally posted by DSmoke

quote:

---

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cricket55

Thanks for the replies.

If you zoom in on the picture, I have a bit of foam under the strings at the tailpiece already, and the strings behind the bridge are pretty dead, unless I misunderstood your suggestion.

By "check the head tension" are you thinking too loose?  Too tight?  Uneven?  I don't have a drum dial, though considering the purchase.  The brackets *seem* about the same tightness... Bridge seems flat....  what is the custom for Irish tuned tenor.  Head seems to be tuned to Bb or so.

I am wondering about the head being what appears to be natural skin.  Never had that before, so not sure if or how that might be affecting things.  I'd imagine the banjo hasn't been played in over 50 years.  The strings were completely rusted, as is a lot of the hardware... I kind of like the patina though.

Thanks all for the input.

---

Could be eithe, although Bb is likely way too low. Tension can be set pretty accurately with a dime and a 6 inch straightedge (thanks go to member Steve Davis.) A dime should barely slide beneath the straightedge next to the bridge. (better instructions can be had using the BHO search function (Steve Davis coin and straightedge method for head tension.)

 

---

This is for 5 string players, not accurate for GDAE tuning for Irish trad setups.

---

Hello - 

What do you suggest for an Irish trad setup?  New to that and trying to learn more.  It did seem like tightening the head helped considerably.  I may be a bit tighter now than a "dime," but the banjo definitely sounds better.

I am, of course, aware that this particular banjo is hardly top of the line.  Even so, I'd like to get it sounding as good as possible, and I think it's getting there.  Sounds and plays reasonably ok so far.  I was unsure if this could even be made playable at first. (I really have to start taking "before pictures" when I start a project.)

Thanks, 

Cricket

DSmoke - Posted - 02/18/2023:  04:44:17

 

---

This is for 5 string players, not accurate for GDAE tuning for Irish trad setups.

---

Hello - 

What do you suggest for an Irish trad setup? 

I do not have any personal experience with that banjo to offer any advice

New to that and trying to learn more.  It did seem like tightening the head helped considerably.  I may be a bit tighter now than a "dime," but the banjo definitely sounds better.

This is how you learn. It sounds better now so keep going. I turn all the nuts 1/6th of a turn, tune it up and play it. Does it sound better? If yes, do that again. If no, back of 1/6th of a turn and you found the sweet spot. As for why 1/6th of a turn, well the nuts are hex nuts and it's easy to see what 1/6th of a turn is.

G Edward Porgie - Posted - 02/18/2023:  06:44:02

quote:

---

Originally posted by DSmoke

quote:

---

Originally posted by G Edward Porgie

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cricket55

Thanks for the replies.

If you zoom in on the picture, I have a bit of foam under the strings at the tailpiece already, and the strings behind the bridge are pretty dead, unless I misunderstood your suggestion.

By "check the head tension" are you thinking too loose?  Too tight?  Uneven?  I don't have a drum dial, though considering the purchase.  The brackets *seem* about the same tightness... Bridge seems flat....  what is the custom for Irish tuned tenor.  Head seems to be tuned to Bb or so.

I am wondering about the head being what appears to be natural skin.  Never had that before, so not sure if or how that might be affecting things.  I'd imagine the banjo hasn't been played in over 50 years.  The strings were completely rusted, as is a lot of the hardware... I kind of like the patina though.

Thanks all for the input.

---

Could be eithe, although Bb is likely way too low. Tension can be set pretty accurately with a dime and a 6 inch straightedge (thanks go to member Steve Davis.) A dime should barely slide beneath the straightedge next to the bridge. (better instructions can be had using the BHO search function (Steve Davis coin and straightedge method for head tension.)

 

---

This is for 5 string players, not accurate for GDAE tuning for Irish trad setups.

---

I'e used it before has worked on both tenors and plectrum banjos. Of course, there can always be some further adjustment. As is often pointed out, too, tone and playability are a matter of personal preference, and it is quite possible that we have different ideals. 

In any case, Bb I suspect, will give a crummy tone, and  will need some adjustment. Wit no drum dial, t least the OP will have a starting point.

tdennis - Posted - 02/18/2023:  14:45:37

To put a Celtic design on your head, you might look into fabric dye pens, made for artist to draw on fabrics. They come in sets of colored pens & are easy to work with. They will add no weight whatsoever to your head, & will not affect the voice in any way.

Edited by - tdennis on 02/18/2023 14:49:21

 

Cricket55 - Posted - 02/19/2023:  03:31:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by tdennis

To put a Celtic design on your head, you might look into fabric dye pens, made for artist to draw on fabrics. They come in sets of colored pens & are easy to work with. They will add no weight whatsoever to your head, & will not affect the voice in any way.

---

That's a great idea.  I'd imagine a natural skin head is pretty close to fabric, as compared to a plastic head.  Originally, I was thinking of this if the banjo turned out to be "wall art," but it would still look good even if it's playable.  I was a bit concerned that paint might mess up the head, and/or get ruined afterwards by contact with pick and fingers.  I had also thought maybe markers but afraid the design might bleed into the skin.  Fabric pens might be just the thing.