pjfolino - Posted - 10/07/2022:  17:23:07

Howdy all!



Got myself the Goldtone dynamic pickup which is great - loud, no feedback. But banjo sounds very guitar-y. I knew this would be the case with this "guitar pickup" - but has anyone had success with a preamp that somewhat helps you dial-in a more banjo sound?



Thanks all in advance.

Cheers,

Peter

Edited by - Texasbanjo on 10/08/2022 07:54:12

corn - Posted - 10/07/2022:  21:07:29

Peter, one option I currently use is the Audio Sprockets unit “tone dexter”. It has become my favorite due to the training feature for multiple wave maps to emulate any mics that you have played thru. Also it gives you enough channels to accommodate other instruments you may use during a performance, ie. guitar or mandolin. You may have to verify that it will work with the Goldtone unit.
Another option that I had good success with is the Tonebone unit from radial.
Both have their upsides and are robust enough for tour use.
Each unit would allow you to dial-in a stronger signal and more control over your sound output.

rvrose - Posted - 10/07/2022:  22:30:18

In my experience, if you want a natural instrument sound, use a condenser Mic. They are more expensive but give a very natural fidelity. The dynamic mics are very sensitive to proximity and I think a more mechanical sound. The condenser mics are more sensitive to feedback if you are using on stage. I don't use a pickup, but a at2020 Mic on a stand.

pjfolino - Posted - 10/07/2022:  23:29:31

I should provide more context. I am using the Goldtone SMP dynamic because I play in a loud band with drums and amped-guitars. No way I'd get away with a large condenser, or really any condenser due to feedback. My ShureSM57 sounds amazing live, but can't get enough volume without feedback, too.

Joe the banjo guy - Posted - 10/08/2022:  07:08:15

Anything that has more than one adjustable band for the mid range is good. In your situation, you probably want to try to pull up the upper-mids to get more of a distinct banjo sound. Tonedexter or similar "imaging" type of approach would be even better though.

What I do these days when I play out (which I don't do much anymore) is velcro a 57 on the coordinator rods inside the resonator and run a short mic cable out (i leave off one of the thumb screws). Sound is pretty good, and you get more feedback resistance than you might think. I feel like it's about as good on that issue as a piezo attached to the head somehow. Not something I'd want to do with a real high end instrument necessarily, but it's an effective way to get louder, sound banjoey, and that's cheap to do.

wrench13 - Posted - 10/08/2022:  10:24:57

I'm currently using a Ear Trumpet Edwina mic for both fiddle and banjo. I;ve gone thru just about ever thing out there re fiddle amplification - you name it I;ve tried it. THis mic works wonders, as long as you have a sweepable mid-range control to kill of the feedback frequency. Check current videos - almost every pro and festival has gone over to these mics. $$ but worth every penny, and both banjo and fiddle sound amazingly like the instruments they are. No piezio quackiness, no brash low and mid high ends (like SM 57s).

Old Hickory - Posted - 10/08/2022:  21:18:43

quote:

---

Originally posted by pjfolino

I should provide more context. I am using the Goldtone SMP dynamic because I play in a loud band with drums and amped-guitars. No way I'd get away with a large condenser, or really any condenser due to feedback. 

---

Great choice for your situation. Ned Luberecki presented a session on amplification in last year's online Midwest Banjo Camp in which he said exactly what you've discovered: a loud electric band and stage situation requires a magnetic pickup. Instrument-mounted mics and transducer pickups are more likely to feedback than deliver good sound.

I like the suggestion of Tone Dexter. As part of setup you teach it the sound if your banjo through a mic and through your pickup. Then, when you play through your pickup in a performance  and engage Tone Dexter it substitutes the learned mic sound for the pickup sound. Or as close as it can come, which is really close. If it can do this with the sound from a magnetic pickup like your Gold Tone that would be exactly what you need.

Search out Tone Dexter videos on YouTube to see demos of training and  some examples of banjo. It sounds great.

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/09/2022:  05:32:48

tone dexters must be the same technology as a sampler

banjoak - Posted - 10/10/2022:  19:25:50

quote:

---

Originally posted by pjfolino

Howdy all!



Got myself the Goldtone dynamic pickup which is great - loud, no feedback. But banjo sounds very guitar-y. I knew this would be the case with this "guitar pickup" - but has anyone had success with a preamp that somewhat helps you dial-in a more banjo sound?



Thanks all in advance.

Cheers,

Peter

---

I don't think of it as much a different preamp issue.  It's mostly due to it's a magnetic pickup... for string vibrations magnetic field, not differences in air pressure (like a mic), eliminating most of instruments acoustic properties.  (Given the context of music that prioritizes loudness... I wonder if the target audience really expecting or care that it sounds like real acoustic banjo, just that it has some banjo like sound?) You can play with the tone, starting with finding best spot to place the PU (bridge/neck). You can work with shaping the tone from dialing in EQ, play with scooping the mids; possibly using a outboard EQ that gives better tweaking control. Some folks use a compressor to help with transients. Adding some reverb can help.  

The tone tweaking involves perceived loudness to how it sits in the mix. sometimes can improve the clarity/quality of one instrument by tweaking the sound of another.   

But as others mentioned, some of the Impulse Response/convolution technology might get you closer to what you want. To answer previous question, not quite same sampling/replacement that drums, keyboards or triggers use, 

----------

Might mention another route... back to using microphone, but with better understanding/tweaking for raising gain before feedback. Microphones themselves don't feedback... only when picking up output of speakers. There are ways to improve that setup. Speaking of technology, probably the simplest solution - in ear monitors, pretty awesome and solve lot of issues getting good stage GBF, without having sacrifice sound/tone. (as well, can offer other benefits).

Comparing the cost/benefits of IEM to good IR unit, I think IEM is probably better choice for most acoustic instruments.

Edited by - banjoak on 10/10/2022 19:37:44

Old Hickory - Posted - 10/14/2022:  10:11:05

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

tone dexters must be the same technology as a sampler

---

Maybe the same idea, in that the ToneDexter models an instrument's microphone sound. But the AudioSprockets website says ToneDexter uses "proprietary digital signal processing technology combined with a pristine analog signal path."

You can model different microphones and even different setups of the same microphone-- such as distance from the banjo or what part of the instrument the mic is working.

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/14/2022:  12:30:48

one and the same -- old school mikes are all analog --the analog is given digital snap shot --the onboard computer(processor) recognizes what note was played and uses the tone of the digital snap shot --instead--no live sound is needed.
in this technology a lot of times various snapshots are taken --and used for certain sections of the fretboard since the timbre varies on the actual instrument --so this matches better--I don;'t claim to be an engineer --but i have been dealing with electronic keyboards a while now--they have fake tones made that way --including a banjo -that has a lot more range than the real deal

Old Hickory - Posted - 10/15/2022:  09:37:17

I get what you're saying. This type of technology pre-dates ToneDexter. AudioSprockets isn't claiming to have invented digital signal processing, modeling, sampling, or whatever we want to call this category of technology. What they're claiming is to have created their own rather than use a specific technology created by someone else. I'm accepting that as true rather than marketing over-claim or exaggeration because I spent my career writing this kind of stuff and I never wrote a claim that wasn't true.

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/15/2022:  10:18:20

no one said it was not true Ken---I was not blasting them at all and wish I had a couple myself -

-but there are only 2 current significant ways of recording a tone ---- and digital fingerprints are the only --way---- this can be done--

The computer inside of the tonedexter has to have the info, in digital --not the older analog---course what tonedexter did with the digital ''diamond in the rough'' is probably a room full of possibilities--

Building recording  equipment --- probably brings in hours of circuit planning by folks smarter --than both of us --put together---

Edited by - Tractor1 on 10/15/2022 10:28:19

TimFoster - Posted - 10/16/2022:  10:14:57

I had the ToneDexter for a bit, but ultimately moved back to the setup I used to use on guitar — DPA4099 (the drum rim mount, not the banjo/mandolin one, is a must) and a grace Felix preamp. It is spendy, but its the best compromise between natural tone and feedback resistance that I’ve encountered.



Granted I play in a small trio, no drums… but I’ve used this setup before on guitar with a very tasteful drummer (good volume control, using Promark rods instead of sticks) in a small bar scenario and gotten away with it.



The ToneDexter for me didn’t quite do it. Feedback resistance was great, but the overall tone and feel left me wanting a bit. I believe under the hood it uses some form of the impulse based convolution that’s been employed in audio dsp for some time now. I have great mics, preamps and converters, a vocal booth etc — nice controlled environment to make impulses… but ultimately, even when I thought I had a good one… I’d switch to the dpa and it just couldn’t compete in terms of tone and feel. No doubt it would be just the ticket for extremely loud environments though — and it’s not really a fair comparison in terms of price..

Edited by - TimFoster on 10/16/2022 10:16:37

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/16/2022:  11:48:32

dynamics is a word that comes to mind,,in acoustic terms==my keyboards try to deal it --in their parlance ----it is touch response --could be that modeling is-----still in it;s orphancy concerning ---banjo being used as the input. a tidbit here ----Keys actually measure how fast the key goes down --not how hard the finger lands at the bottom

banjoak - Posted - 10/17/2022:  04:54:53

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

one and the same -- old school mikes are all analog --the analog is given digital snap shot --the onboard computer(processor) recognizes what note was played and uses the tone of the digital snap shot --instead--no live sound is needed.

in this technology a lot of times various snapshots are taken --and used for certain sections of the fretboard since the timbre varies on the actual instrument --so this matches better--I don;'t claim to be an engineer --but i have been dealing with electronic keyboards a while now--they have fake tones made that way --including a banjo -that has a lot more range than the real deal

---

Might be conflating different technologies. 

Electronic keyboards are triggering devices to play prerecorded audio sample of each note. As in grand piano samples. For banjo would be something like Evolution Bluegrass Banjo
Orange Tree Samples

IR and Convolution is not that. It's not analyzing/recognizing what note was played, nor replacing it with recorded audio. An actual live analog sound (vibrating string) is still needed, as that is getting amplified... and it's using the actual dynamics of the player (not velocity algorithm)

The easier example IR is speaker cabs (and amps), for electric guitars. Plug an electric guitar straight DI into a DAW... vs the tone of that signal going through a Marshall Plexi on 10, 4x10 greenback cab, thru a close off axis Royer mic. The IR  and convolution is about the difference in harmonic content, EQ/tone curve, resonance, reverb... thus processing, adjusting and affecting PU sound to make sound as if the latter profile (without need of actual amp/speaker/mic). For acoustic instruments the body; top, back, sides; or pot, tone ring... are the comparable amp and speaker/cab, with regard to affecting tone/harmonic content/resonance. 

There are some tutorials on how to play with and make your own IR profiles, just using a computer, DAW. 

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/17/2022:  05:40:08

fascinating Banjoak says reader with egg on face--I looked it up and kinda see the basics of impulse response and convoluting it with the real signal----I bet that is great on reverbs -as one article stated

so that would do away with having to recognize the pitch but seems it might bring feedback into the picture once again--thanks

I guess I need to get over to tonedexters website now and dig around

returning here--they do have some notch filter stuff (kinda)

one of those with an electromagnetic pick-up would probably get as  loud as needed

Edited by - Tractor1 on 10/17/2022 06:00:44

TimFoster - Posted - 10/17/2022:  08:11:55

Interestingly the tonedexter folks don’t recommend magnetic pickups — the specific reason escapes me, but I believe it has to do with some inherent non-linearities (maybe the reactive/inductive nature) in the way they produce signal. Things like the EMG and kavanjo pickup systems can be used they say, however, not with optimal results (or those intended). Instead they recommend simple piezo based transducers…



That was part of my issue with feel I suppose. My understanding of the tech is that a piezo transducer, as a voltage creating device, is very accurate as a function of its input. But its practical use as a banjo pickup is perhaps a limiting factor. It’s reacting to vibrations across the banjo head — but this is just one part of the equation when it comes to the overall tone and response of the banjo.



It doesn’t (directly) account for the acoustic properties of and vibrations/resonances across all the other components which make up the actual sound we hear — the rim, ring, reflections off the resonator if you have one, the strings themselves. Off course all these things inform the vibrations across the head — but the head has its own limitations in terms of transference and how much each component contributes to it.



So that’s the “source” input for tonedexter; the IR convolution side then aims to apply those other missing acoustic artifacts that a traditional mic would capture (but are perhaps missing from the piezo transducer’s sonic “picture”). It’s a step in the right direction and can add more realistic body and resonance — but doesn’t overcome the feel/dynamics of a pickup reacting solely to the head vibrations, and static convolution cannot reproduce distortions or nonlinearities elsewhere n the system.



Of course all that needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Really just a guess from an armchair engineer with no real qualifications to comment on this stuff, lol. And I’m not knocking piezo pickups or the ToneDexter — I’ve used them happily, they can sound great and serve a necessary purpose for some gigs. But like any tool, they have their own nuances and pros/cons.

Edited by - TimFoster on 10/17/2022 08:13:40

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/17/2022:  09:21:24

I have always been hooked on great natural tones but  also great ways to get a certain un-natural but still a pleasant variant using effects.For a song or 2 not --

I never delved into the modeling part of music--but the vo coder effect seemed to do that --

Interesting and probably true idea there Tim. Just last night I changed the barcus berry insider's location -inside my baritone banjo.-the first string area was getting blasted harder so I spun it around now  the end is behind --the 4th string --the other end towards the tailpiece--my rock schooled partners will be happy --with the results --so am i--I actually have a piece of brass between it and the head --(a buffer)--I like to run it thru my Mesa  tube amp which has some juicy tubes..Miking with them in our studio is a disaster.

 BTw folks

Here is the midi technology I wrongly thought tonedexter used,It probably has access to the usual 128 general midi tones..such as organ banjo--steel drums--fiddle--

TimFoster - Posted - 10/17/2022:  10:06:22

Would love to hear some of the tones you’re getting out of the amp with that! For as much as
I’ve been nitpicking about “natural tone” in this thread…. I’m really an electric guitar player at heart.

Or Perhaps I was…. Banjo has been getting a lot more playing time than the ol’ six-strings the past few years! ;-)

mmuussiiccaall - Posted - 10/17/2022:  11:09:24

Is the sound coming out of a guitar amp or the P.A?

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/17/2022:  11:22:31

on my little mesa -It sounds better amp speaker wise --but by needing it's controls - there next to me ---It will feedback too quick--so I mute it and send it's signal to the PA (post-- power amp)line level

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/17/2022:  11:36:26

by the way Peter sorry we hi-jacked into getting a possible non-banjo tone -----
I have no idea about some pick ups mentioned here --but on my regular tuned 5s--I have the jones type under the head setup ----instead of a piece of metal under the bridge--I have them set high with steel wool stuffed between them --the lighter the stuffing the more buffered----I don't say it is braggable but it's working fine for me
It doesn't take but about 10 minutes --to become old school in this business ha ha

banjoak - Posted - 10/18/2022:  02:16:51

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tractor1

 but seems it might bring feedback into the picture once again--thanks

---

No more than just using whatever PU system straight... or manually dialing in EQ... as in OP.

Tractor1 - Posted - 10/18/2022:  06:04:29

thanks for your input banjoak

Disco Kid - Posted - 10/18/2022:  17:27:33

When playing in electric bands I don't think super authentic banjo tone is as crucial. I picked up a $20, 3 pickup piezo and run it through a KN preamp, turn the high all the way down, balance bass and mid and up the reverb. Sounds fine.