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 ARCHIVED TOPIC: Individualism..vs..collectivism...thinking..


Please note this is an archived topic, so it is locked and unable to be replied to. You may, however, start a new topic and refer to this topic with a link: http://www.banjohangout.org/archive/384877

STUD - Posted - 08/05/2022:  05:48:48


I prefer to think on me own...

N..
I think there is not much I do..
That dose not involve ...somebodys eleses help...

Texasbanjo - Posted - 08/05/2022:  06:42:31


I have to make my own decisions because there is no one to help me and that's okay. Always been independent. However, I do miss having a partner to talk to and discuss whatever may come up.

As far as asking anyone else for advice, I seldom do, but if I do, I listen, think about what was said and then act accordingly; i.e., I may like and take the advice and I may reject and ignore it. Always been an independent thinker and probably always will be.

bubbalouie - Posted - 08/05/2022:  07:55:39


I take EVERYTHING with a grain of salt. Doesn't matter the source. We live a pretty simple life so we don't have any Do or Die decisions. 



You do need a circle of friends & acquaintances that you trust & that trust you, All of ours are like minded.

Brian T - Posted - 08/05/2022:  11:11:19


I'm losing my independence. I'm accustomed to making all decisions about what I will do, how and when. I need the help of others now or it just doesn't get done.
At the same time, their help, however little it may seem, makes a great difference in my comfort level and confidence to do what I can do.
Part time: house keeper, yard gardener, shopper. I'm hiring trades for DIY jobs, a carpenter, a plumber and an electrician.
I get to ramble as best I can around my house, doing a lot more things than if I were just another wobbly in a wrinkle ranch.

Tommy5 - Posted - 08/05/2022:  14:36:55


No man is an island. The American individualist nonsense was an offshoot of the Cold War propaganda. The communist were collectivist so America was individualistic, the Communist lived in slavery, we lived in freedom, the communist were evil, we were good, blah, blah, blah. Some stuff can be done all by yourself, others things are only accomplished by group effort. If you have any military experience you know how dependent everyone is on each other. I like play my banjo all by myself, but I also enjoy being a member of a jam and making the collective group effort to make bluegrass music. Individual vs. collective is a false dichotomy imho.I all depends on the situation.

steve davis - Posted - 08/05/2022:  14:44:59


I just think for myself,but I depend on advise and instruction from my doctors and bank.

I listen to every word my friends say and play...especially on Scrabble nights.



We learned to get along with and help each other centuries ago in the little fishing villages of Maine.Many lives were saved by fellow fishermen being the nearest to the vessel in distress.


Edited by - steve davis on 08/05/2022 14:48:25

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/05/2022:  16:45:32


We all pitch in, some of us grudgingly, with our tax money to fund roads, police, military, infrastructure, and in some (ahem) enlightened countries, health care. (someone last week noted on this august forum that collectivism/socialism/communism was stealthily moving in akin to a boiling frog). Oh yeah, almost forgot, some of my taxes went to pay salaries to dozing politicians in Parliament’s back benches.


Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/05/2022 16:49:01

BanjoLink - Posted - 08/06/2022:  09:18:25


I was going to say not to mention the word "rugged" to individualism lest you want to get bashed, but someone didn't wait to bash the concept.. My advice is just to take getting land blasted with a grade of slaw!wink

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/06/2022:  09:57:13


Yes, yes, of course/coarse , John. The much-maligned and mis-interpreted ‘rugged individualism’ that we pinkos scratch our heads over. (all in fun, of course,,, just a bit of gamesmanship)

AndrewD - Posted - 08/06/2022:  10:39:29


We're a communal, only mildly hierarchical, pair bonding species. That's how we've evolved. If you don't like that then come back next time as a tiger, or a hamster.


Edited by - AndrewD on 08/06/2022 10:40:11

1935tb-11 - Posted - 08/06/2022:  11:12:26


quote:

Originally posted by AndrewD

We're a communal, only mildly hierarchical, pair bonding species. That's how we've evolved. If you don't like that then come back next time as a tiger, or a hamster.






or a banjo !!!!

banjo bill-e - Posted - 08/06/2022:  12:20:53


Al's thread is about "thinking", and only an individual can think. "Groupthink" is the opposite of actually thinking. So I would say that one is either thinking, as an individual, or not-thinking as part of a collective, who is told what they are to think.

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/06/2022:  13:16:43


Seems to me many people have given up their individual thinking by watching those “news” channels (read : propaganda) for hours every day. Talk about groupthink…. Sheesh

BanjoLink - Posted - 08/06/2022:  16:20:30


quote:

Originally posted by chuckv97

Yes, yes, of course/coarse , John. The much-maligned and mis-interpreted ‘rugged individualism’ that we pinkos scratch our heads over. (all in fun, of course,,, just a bit of gamesmanship)






Yeah Chuck, I guess it is one of those words that someone gets a burr under their saddle over, then  a bunch of people do, and then it becomes a much maligned word defined by people that don't like it.  Here is the Webster definition "the practice or advocacy of individualism in social and economic relations emphasizing personal liberty and independence, self-reliance, resourcefulness, self-direction of the individual, and free competition in enterprise".  In my opinion, there is not much wrong with that.  It has nothing to do, in my estimation, about not recognizing the collective effort to build roads, get large projects done by group effort, or recognizing the importance of team work.  As a twenty-year military officer, I never thought it was a good idea to single handily attack an enemy occupied hill ........ although me and my men knew it would take a lot of individual effort working as a team.

chuckv97 - Posted - 08/06/2022:  22:42:05


Speaking of collectivism I see that the United States Postal Service is issuing a stamp in honor of Pete Seeger. And yet…..


Edited by - chuckv97 on 08/06/2022 22:42:44




RB3 - Posted - 08/07/2022:  08:57:13


I'm in favor of thinking, either individually or collectively. It appears to me that a lot of folks no longer know how to do it. They don't seem to be able to figure out when they're being lied to by a grifters. Moreover, that process has been so successful that it has spawned a whole bunch of apprentice grifters who are now trying to do the same thing.

sherrilynn_banjo - Posted - 08/07/2022:  09:31:32


I often find myself asking my husband, "what should I do? should I do this? should I do that, am I doing the right thing?"
And he says, "You have to make your own decisions on your own, and do what you think is best. And it's my job to support those decisions."

Now there's a smart man!!

Paul R - Posted - 08/07/2022:  09:32:56


quote:

Originally posted by Tommy5

No man is an island. The American individualist nonsense was an offshoot of the Cold War propaganda. The communist were collectivist so America was individualistic, the Communist lived in slavery, we lived in freedom, the communist were evil, we were good, blah, blah, blah. Some stuff can be done all by yourself, others things are only accomplished by group effort. If you have any military experience you know how dependent everyone is on each other. I like play my banjo all by myself, but I also enjoy being a member of a jam and making the collective group effort to make bluegrass music. Individual vs. collective is a false dichotomy imho.I all depends on the situation.






Red Scare goes back way before the Cold War. And some of those "individuals" weren't above calling in the army to fire on those collectivist miners and others looking for a living wage. Just some added historical perspective. And, Chuck, Pete Seeger was right. Effing Bolshevists didn't brook any dissent. They, too, disciplined with bullets.

donc - Posted - 08/07/2022:  11:03:28


Our societies usually reward those who specialize. If you repair teeth for living you probably don't repair transmissions. The jack of all trades doesn't usually live in the expensive part of town.

banjo bill-e - Posted - 08/07/2022:  11:46:27


Don, I would tend to phrase that as: the Market rewards those with specialized knowledge/abilities/skills. If most anyone could do a job, then that job will not pay much. If very few can do what is needed, those few will command good pay. And nobody at all "decided" these things, which is a characteristic of an individualistic society, which is a free society. Whatever results is the sum of thousands of individual decisions, according to what each of them values. A collectivist society, which cannot be a free society, will have a few making the decisions of who gets paid for doing what, and then forcing those decisions on everyone else. The only values that matter are the values of the state.


Pete seems to have seen reality clearer than his contemporaries who somehow believe that they will all be artists at leisure after the revolution, instead of forced labor for a state factory!

donc - Posted - 08/07/2022:  13:04:06


Without academic labels and sociology textbooks let's put this in simple terms. As soon as you move away from a hermitage and into a village you are usually not free ,whatever 'free' is suppose to mean. A small settlement may mean more freedom from crowds and smog but it other ways it can be more restrictive, or however you may define 'restrictive'. Many people from around here retire and flee to one of the islands. Their biggest complaint is having to deal with the awkward ferry system when they choose to come to the mainland. Those in the small interior towns complain of having to drive 2 hours round trip to see a dentist. I am free to walk to mine in 30 minutes but not everybody wants to live with my confinement.

BanjoLink - Posted - 08/07/2022:  13:33:43


quote:

Originally posted by donc

Without academic labels and sociology textbooks let's put this in simple terms. As soon as you move away from a hermitage and into a village you are usually not free ,whatever 'free' is suppose to mean. A small settlement may mean more freedom from crowds and smog but it other ways it can be more restrictive, or however you may define 'restrictive'. Many people from around here retire and flee to one of the islands. Their biggest complaint is having to deal with the awkward ferry system when they choose to come to the mainland. Those in the small interior towns complain of having to drive 2 hours round trip to see a dentist. I am free to walk to mine in 30 minutes but not everybody wants to live with my confinement.






Don, I don't think where you live has anything to do with the way individuals think, which is what I understood the OP to be about.  I guess you could be in prison and still be individualistic in your thinking.  Maybe I am wrong, but that was my impression.

donc - Posted - 08/07/2022:  15:45:17


quote:

Originally posted by BanjoLink

quote:

Originally posted by donc

Without academic labels and sociology textbooks let's put this in simple terms. As soon as you move away from a hermitage and into a village you are usually not free ,whatever 'free' is suppose to mean. A small settlement may mean more freedom from crowds and smog but it other ways it can be more restrictive, or however you may define 'restrictive'. Many people from around here retire and flee to one of the islands. Their biggest complaint is having to deal with the awkward ferry system when they choose to come to the mainland. Those in the small interior towns complain of having to drive 2 hours round trip to see a dentist. I am free to walk to mine in 30 minutes but not everybody wants to live with my confinement.






Don, I don't think where you live has anything to do with the way individuals think, which is what I understood the OP to be about.  I guess you could be in prison and still be individualistic in your thinking.  Maybe I am wrong, but that was my impression.






Good point, but how people think from minute to minute doesn't really compare to the actual lives they choose for themselves. When I get into a typical traffic jam the first thing I may say to myself is " Why do I live in this effin place ?"  That doesn't  mean that I immediately go home and put my house up for sale but it does mean that I would sometimes like more liberation from certain situations. I have known very few people who wouldn't want more control over their lives. This would include all those I know who live in a city or far away from a city.  For most of us it means living with the best from a list of bad choices. When we are young we have illusions of freedom but later on we realize that those lives of complete freedom don't exist. 

STUD - Posted - 08/07/2022:  16:02:08


City mouse n country mouse..

steve davis - Posted - 08/08/2022:  08:09:48


I don't get labeling how people think.
I suppose thinking depends on one's upbringing,experiences and who one's friends are,but there are a great many people and only a couple of labels.
That,to me, leaves out a lot of folks that aren't within those kind of labels.

Who thinks up these labels/

BanjoLink - Posted - 08/08/2022:  08:55:16


quote:

Originally posted by steve davis

I don't get labeling how people think.

I suppose thinking depends on one's upbringing,experiences and who one's friends are,but there are a great many people and only a couple of labels.

That,to me, leaves out a lot of folks that aren't within those kind of labels.



Who thinks up these labels/






I think that most people understand that a particular "label" is nothing more than a generalization.  I understand that someone given a particular label does not necessarily think exactly like every other person with that same label, but it gives a general idea where they are coming from.  Labeling someone as a "free thinker", or "closed-minded", or "group thinker", may very well be accurate ...... although few people will admit to being the last two!

steve davis - Posted - 08/08/2022:  09:05:17


Labels seem to be how folks rate others.
A label is one person's opinion of other folks.A way to conveniently categorize others depending on your own biases.

GrahamHawker - Posted - 08/08/2022:  09:17:41


quote:

Originally posted by steve davis

I don't get labeling how people think.

I suppose thinking depends on one's upbringing,experiences and who one's friends are,but there are a great many people and only a couple of labels.

That,to me, leaves out a lot of folks that aren't within those kind of labels.



Who thinks up these labels/






Mainly becuase it's easy. People who think other stuff they don't agree with are group thinkers especially if there are more of them. And then it justifies believing wierd stuff and such people claim to be indepedant thinkers. But they are just group thinkers because they believe the wierd stuff without much in the way of question and without the interest or ability to question it. It's really just simple labels to avoid actually having to think and really check stuff out.



The real group think stuff is accepting ideas for which there is little or no evidence. Some of this can become mainstream but other stuff is far from mainstream.



The labelling is mainly just an easy excuse.

Owen - Posted - 08/08/2022:  10:06:30


I find labels very useful .... akin to nouns. wink

banjo bill-e - Posted - 08/08/2022:  10:09:21


"Collective thinking" is not thinking at all. It is the accepting of someone else's thinking as if it were your own because it is has been validated by whatever collective that you value, and is what most people substitute for thinking. Most online arguments seem to be between adherents of different collectives regurgitating the arguments which were provided for them, by whoever is really doing the thinking.

BanjoLink - Posted - 08/08/2022:  10:19:22


quote:

Originally posted by banjo bill-e

"Collective thinking" is not thinking at all. It is the accepting of someone else's thinking as if it were your own because it is has been validated by whatever collective that you value, and is what most people substitute for thinking. Most online arguments seem to be between adherents of different collectives regurgitating the arguments which were provided for them, by whoever is really doing the thinking.






Maybe the best explanation yet!  I don't think any particular political or other philosophy has a monopoly on "collective thinking" as some might suggest.  I reject many of the ideas that my own side of what I might be labeled come up with.  And in that respect I would agree with Steve that labels are not always a good way to define people ..... but sometimes they are!

steve davis - Posted - 08/08/2022:  13:10:06


I guess that's related to judging based on stereotypes.It's so much easier than taking the time to get to know someone.After all,who's got the time for that?

Paul R - Posted - 08/08/2022:  14:58:32


quote:

Originally posted by BanjoLink

quote:

Originally posted by steve davis

I don't get labeling how people think.

I suppose thinking depends on one's upbringing,experiences and who one's friends are,but there are a great many people and only a couple of labels.

That,to me, leaves out a lot of folks that aren't within those kind of labels.



Who thinks up these labels/






I think that most people understand that a particular "label" is nothing more than a generalization.  I understand that someone given a particular label does not necessarily think exactly like every other person with that same label, but it gives a general idea where they are coming from.  Labeling someone as a "free thinker", or "closed-minded", or "group thinker", may very well be accurate ...... although few people will admit to being the last two!






Well, um, after a debate in teachers' college, out "Master" (that was their label) said to me, "You're a little radical!" To which a classmate said, "He's to the right of Barry Goldwater!" Hmm. Contradictory labels.



It seems the issue is as much the labeler and the labeled (labelee?). So, what's the general idea?

Bill Rogers - Posted - 08/08/2022:  20:29:35


Often labels are simply used or misused to arrack people whose ideas someone dislikes. They have no connection to reality. “Radical” can refer to either fringe of the political spectrum—or to extreme social and cultural views of any kind. The term often is used to deliberately mislabel and attack views and people who are not radical at all, but simply disagree with the attacker. The attacks are often effective because most people instinctively shy away from ideas and persons labeled “radical,” without examining what they actually say.

Tommy5 - Posted - 08/08/2022:  21:17:44


Exactly Bill. I am so tired of everyone from moderates to anarchist bomb throwers described as part of the “left”, while moderate conservatives and white suprematist are all described as part of the “right”. In addition to collective thinking, whatever that is supposed to mean, there actually is a think called collective intelligence which is used by social insects as the whole colony seems to think as one. Since there are far more insects then humans in the world , you could argue that collective intelligence is an excellent animal adaptation. It is possible that extra terrestrial aliens could also use collective intelligence, so I individuals don’t consider themselves separate entities,

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